Post-deadline Olshey Keep or Fire

[PtldPlatypus]

Financially sure, but would we have been better on the floor?

I could easily argue that we would be.

 

[Denny Crane]

Even if the alternative to matching Crabbe and signing Turner was simply bringing in D-League prospects to fill their spot, we'd have been better off.

Sorry, but that's nonsense. No D League prospect is going to contribute what either of those players have. All it would do is make the team less competitive.

 

[Schilly]

I could easily argue that we would be.

You can argue it, but wouldn't be able to prove it. That's the tough thing about going back in time on stuff like that, in fact it's tough period because as fans we have very little clue about why things don't end up happening the way we think they should.

 

[hoopsjock]

Some people are happy with 1st round playoff exits, I guess.

Bones, I haven't been here very long but I think you're a better poster than to write a crappy sentence like this. I am absolutely not happy or content with just making the playoffs every year. I want to contend. I believe moves can be made to better this team despite what happened in 2016. I also think that Olshey did a pretty fantastic job of building a team around Aldridge his first 3 years and is now trying to build a team around Lillard. I wish there was a shortcut to success but there isn't. I wish this team was good enough to win a title this year but when being realistic there aren't any moves Olshey can make or could've made to make us better than a 73 win team that added the 2nd best player in the world to that roster.

Now you obviously don't see much potential for this roster. I was pissed when we traded up for Collins. I was praying that the reports were wrong and that we were going to take Donovan Mitchell instead. I still can't believe Denver made that stupid trade with Utah for the 13th pick either. I was also super high on OG Anunboy (starting for Toronto) and Jonathan Jeanne (who unfortunately was diagnosed with Marfan Syndrome right before the draft). I was fine with the Swanigan pick too as I still believe he can be a solid bench player on a good team. As for Collins I really like what I see defensively in terms of being in the right spots and going straight up to effect shots. He seems quick enough to be able to stay at PF long term and in my opinion we should keep him there to make teams adjust to us instead of always adjusting small to other teams.

I haven't given up on Nurk yet. He worked incredibly hard last summer to get into better physical condition. Losing that much weight in a short amount of time makes you weaker until you can turn what's left into muscle. I expect him to be much better next year because this off-season he can work on getting more cut muscles. The game still moves too fast for him but when it slows down and everything clicks then I hope he's still on this roster. Long term I project the starters to be Dame, CJ, Collins, and Nurk. That just leaves SF as the major upgrade needed. So in my opinion you can get lucky with just one draft pick and hit a home run. If a trade ever presents itself then that works too (almost happened last summer with PG13).

 

[Orion Bailey]

Bones, I haven't been here very long but I think you're a better poster than to write a crappy sentence like this. I am absolutely not happy or content with just making the playoffs every year. I want to contend. I believe moves can be made to better this team despite what happened in 2016. I also think that Olshey did a pretty fantastic job of building a team around Aldridge his first 3 years and is now trying to build a team around Lillard. I wish there was a shortcut to success but there isn't. I wish this team was good enough to win a title this year but when being realistic there aren't any moves Olshey can make or could've made to make us better than a 73 win team that added the 2nd best player in the world to that roster.

Now you obviously don't see much potential for this roster. I was pissed when we traded up for Collins. I was praying that the reports were wrong and that we were going to take Donovan Mitchell instead. I still can't believe Denver made that stupid trade with Utah for the 13th pick either. I was also super high on OG Anunboy (starting for Toronto) and Jonathan Jeanne (who unfortunately was diagnosed with Marfan Syndrome right before the draft). I was fine with the Swanigan pick too as I still believe he can be a solid bench player on a good team. As for Collins I really like what I see defensively in terms of being in the right spots and going straight up to effect shots. He seems quick enough to be able to stay at PF long term and in my opinion we should keep him there to make teams adjust to us instead of always adjusting small to other teams.

I haven't given up on Nurk yet. He worked incredibly hard last summer to get into better physical condition. Losing that much weight in a short amount of time makes you weaker until you can turn what's left into muscle. I expect him to be much better next year because this off-season he can work on getting more cut muscles. The game still moves too fast for him but when it slows down and everything clicks then I hope he's still on this roster. Long term I project the starters to be Dame, CJ, Collins, and Nurk. That just leaves SF as the major upgrade needed. So in my opinion you can get lucky with just one draft pick and hit a home run. If a trade ever presents itself then that works too (almost happened last summer with PG13).

Bones. This right here. You know I got respect for ya.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I could easily argue that we would be.

Lets hear it.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Lets hear it.

What's the point? It's all speculative (even if I based it on Turner and Crabbe's negative BPM's). Those who want to defend the summer of 2016 will write off any argument as wholly fanciful.

It would accomplish nothing.

 

[Orion Bailey]

What's the point? It's all speculative (even if I based it on Turner and Crabbe's negative BPM's). Those who want to defend the summer of 2016 will write off any argument as wholly fanciful.

It would accomplish nothing.

I agree. And this is why is stupid to call people stupid for their opinion of 2016 and/or this team.

Not saying you called anyone stupid, or their opinions stupid, but there are several on your side of the fence that are not representing your side very maturely.

Glad at least you and I see the point in there being no point in continuing.

 

[tester551]

Financially sure, but would we have been better on the floor?

We wouldn't be any worse on the floor... But we'd have a lot more flexibility going forward than we do now.

 

[Schilly]

We wouldn't be any worse on the floor... But we'd have a lot more flexibility going forward than we do now.

Humor me with a hypothetical.

 

[Minstrel]

If we didn't use the cap space, we'd have several less players, or they'd be replaced by vet minimum at best.

Agreed, and the team would be better off going forward.

It's a fact of life that you cannot sign all your players to contract extensions and still have 2 or 3 near MAX salaried players. Boo hoo, someone has to be let go.

Or, mediocre-to-bad players shouldn't be signed to huge contracts. That also helps.

I think we basically agree. The Blazers would have been better off not massively overpaying Turner, Crabbe and Leonard, because they'd have more space now to sign guys like Nurkic, Napier and any other players they happen across that turn out to be actually good. Unfortunately, there is no way to time travel back, so we have to move past it.

Good discussion!

 

[BonesJones]

Bones, I haven't been here very long but I think you're a better poster than to write a crappy sentence like this. I am absolutely not happy or content with just making the playoffs every year. I want to contend. I believe moves can be made to better this team despite what happened in 2016. I also think that Olshey did a pretty fantastic job of building a team around Aldridge his first 3 years and is now trying to build a team around Lillard. I wish there was a shortcut to success but there isn't. I wish this team was good enough to win a title this year but when being realistic there aren't any moves Olshey can make or could've made to make us better than a 73 win team that added the 2nd best player in the world to that roster.

Now you obviously don't see much potential for this roster. I was pissed when we traded up for Collins. I was praying that the reports were wrong and that we were going to take Donovan Mitchell instead. I still can't believe Denver made that stupid trade with Utah for the 13th pick either. I was also super high on OG Anunboy (starting for Toronto) and Jonathan Jeanne (who unfortunately was diagnosed with Marfan Syndrome right before the draft). I was fine with the Swanigan pick too as I still believe he can be a solid bench player on a good team. As for Collins I really like what I see defensively in terms of being in the right spots and going straight up to effect shots. He seems quick enough to be able to stay at PF long term and in my opinion we should keep him there to make teams adjust to us instead of always adjusting small to other teams.

I haven't given up on Nurk yet. He worked incredibly hard last summer to get into better physical condition. Losing that much weight in a short amount of time makes you weaker until you can turn what's left into muscle. I expect him to be much better next year because this off-season he can work on getting more cut muscles. The game still moves too fast for him but when it slows down and everything clicks then I hope he's still on this roster. Long term I project the starters to be Dame, CJ, Collins, and Nurk. That just leaves SF as the major upgrade needed. So in my opinion you can get lucky with just one draft pick and hit a home run. If a trade ever presents itself then that works too (almost happened last summer with PG13).

Do you seriously not think some people are happy with simply appearing in the playoffs? C'mon man.

I agree with your entire post, however we don't have the means to get that great SF, and Olshey isn't creative enough to do so. How do you know it almost happened? Who knows if they even considered our offer.

We can get lucky in the draft, but so can any team. I don't have a ton of confidence in Olshey to land the right guy.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Do you seriously not think some people are happy with simply appearing in the playoffs? C'mon man.

I agree with your entire post, however we don't have the means to get that great SF, and Olshey isn't creative enough to do so. How do you know it almost happened? Who knows if they even considered our offer.

We can get lucky in the draft, but so can any team. I don't have a ton of confidence in Olshey to land the right guy.

He mentioned Paul George, but Melo DID say he was gonna choose us if OKC fell through I think? SO we were somewhat close to nailing that SF.


When it comes to making the playoffs, Portland is a pretty spoiled and special team.

There are many teams who don't make the playoffs but maybe once a decade. Portland has made the Playoffs like 90% of its existence I believe.

I can see how Portland fans want more, but I also see how we actually have it much better than most other teams overall with our success rate.

So I understand both sides, but Id still rather be a one and done than a team that doesn't make it but once a decade.

I think that's what most are saying when we say it isn't really as bad as it seems. It could be a HELL of alot worse.

 

[BonesJones]

He mentioned Paul George, but Melo DID say he was gonna choose us if OKC fell through I think? SO we were somewhat close to nailing that SF.


When it comes to making the playoffs, Portland is a pretty spoiled and special team.

There are many teams who don't make the playoffs but maybe once a decade. Portland has made the Playoffs like 90% of its existence I believe.

I can see how Portland fans want more, but I also see how we actually have it much better than most other teams overall with our success rate.

So I understand both sides, but Id still rather be a one and done than a team that doesn't make it but once a decade.

I think that's what most are saying when we say it isn't really as bad as it seems. It could be a HELL of alot worse.

Melo is not that SF we need a high level two way SF that can score and play off the ball.

Being worse would mean better draft positioning though and it would mean building towards a brighter future.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Melo is not that SF we need a high level two way SF that can score and play off the ball.

Being worse would mean better draft positioning though and it would mean building towards a brighter future.

Oh I agree with Melo, I didn't want him, but It shows we were trying

 

[hoopsjock]

Do you seriously not think some people are happy with simply appearing in the playoffs? C'mon man.

I agree with your entire post, however we don't have the means to get that great SF, and Olshey isn't creative enough to do so. How do you know it almost happened? Who knows if they even considered our offer.

We can get lucky in the draft, but so can any team. I don't have a ton of confidence in Olshey to land the right guy.

Okay, just so I can comprehend what you saying:

You agree that Olshey has put together 4/5 of a pretty good long term starting lineup (Dame, CJ, Collins, Nurk)?

At the same time you think that Olshey (the guy responsible for this team having those 4 guys) isn't creative or good enough to land one more piece to the puzzle?

Do you see how that can be confusing and doesn't make a lot of sense?

 

[BonesJones]

Okay, just so I can comprehend what you saying:

You agree that Olshey has put together 4/5 of a pretty good long term starting lineup (Dame, CJ, Collins, Nurk)?

At the same time you think that Olshey (the guy responsible for this team having those 4 guys) isn't creative or good enough to land one more piece to the puzzle?

Do you see how that can be confusing and doesn't make a lot of sense?

I'm not sure if Collins or Nurk will be what we need. BUT IF they reach their potential, then we'd need a star SF, which we don't have the cap space or trade assets to get, due to Olshey. He's also shown the inability to multiply assets in order to accumulate the assets needed to make that trade. That's why he's not right for the job. Is that clearer?

 

[hoopsjock]

Do you seriously not think some people are happy with simply appearing in the playoffs? C'mon man.

I agree with your entire post, however we don't have the means to get that great SF, and Olshey isn't creative enough to do so. How do you know it almost happened? Who knows if they even considered our offer.

We can get lucky in the draft, but so can any team. I don't have a ton of confidence in Olshey to land the right guy.

As far as the playoffs statement goes, this is how it is:

There are people that would rather make the playoffs than to just miss out, to tank, or to be the Kings or Suns. That doesn't mean those people don't want the team to go further and win a title. No one says "My ultimate goal for this team is to watch them get swept in the 1st round, woo hoo!" People can be happy they make the playoffs and also want them to do better. Those aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[hoopsjock]

I'm not sure if Collins or Nurk will be what we need. BUT IF they reach their potential, then we'd need a star SF, which we don't have the cap space or trade assets to get, due to Olshey. He's also shown the inability to multiply assets in order to accumulate the assets needed to make that trade. That's why he's not right for the job. Is that clearer?

Well, he was in a similar situation with little trade assets and no cap space and landed 2 of those 4 guys. So no, it isn't clear. Sounds like you are completely dismissing anything he's done, which is my point all along.

 

[tester551]

I think that's what most are saying when we say it isn't really as bad as it seems. It could be a HELL of alot worse.

Most definitely, it could be a lot worse. Look at Sacramento or Orlando...
However, a lot of us believe it COULD be much better.

Using GSW as an example - they were in a "good" to "very good" spot with Jackson with them winning 47 and 51 games in '13 and '14. They still had the balls to make a change to the coaching staff because they didn't believe Jackson had the ability to take them to a championship.

I'm looking at the Blazers here, and they are average to good. I don't believe that NO has the ability to take the Blazers to a true contender (based on his 6-year reign as GM). I think a change needs to be made. Things are not terrible, but they could be a HELL of a lot BETTER.

Being worse would mean better draft positioning though and it would mean building towards a brighter future.

Better draft position does not always equal better future.

 

[hoopsjock]

Most definitely, it could be a lot worse. Look at Sacramento or Orlando...
However, a lot of us believe it COULD be much better.

Using GSW as an example - they were in a "good" to "very good" spot with Jackson with them winning 47 and 51 games in '13 and '14. They still had the balls to make a change to the coaching staff because they didn't believe Jackson had the ability to take them to a championship.

I'm looking at the Blazers here, and they are average to good. I don't believe that NO has the ability to take the Blazers to a true contender (based on his 6-year reign as GM). I think a change needs to be made. Things are not terrible, but they could be a HELL of a lot BETTER.


Better draft position does not always equal better future.

Just curious, you mention GS who switched out their coach but you then say the Blazers need to switch out their GM. Why isn't it a Stotts problem?

 

[ripcityboy]

If you look at the NBA you will see that there are basically places where the new market model for how to build a team works.... and doesn't work. The "Hey, lets get at least two or three stars and open a 4 t0 5 year window and fill out the rest with FAs" type place. Portland isn't one of those. Any window for contention is probably going to be really small and towards the ends of Dame and CJ's primes. Also, most likely, when another dynasty has fallen by the wayside. Sort of like what Detroit did when the Celtics and Lakers fell apart. What makes this even harder is that places like Salt Lake City and Sacramento probably a slightly more popular destination with FAs. Which also hurts. No we aren't as lame as Sacramento is, but we exist in the same NBA market place as they do.

 

[tester551]

Just curious, you mention GS who switched out their coach but you then say the Blazers need to switch out their GM. Why isn't it a Stotts problem?

I have concerns / issues with Stotts too. But it's something to address further down the line.

I like Stotts as a person & all his players defend him. So that's not the place to start IMO. My biggest issue with Stotts is how much freedom he gives his players. I look at Stevens, Pop, & Kerr - and they give players a lot of freedom within the context of the team. If a player does something stupid - the coach gets on their ass. With Stotts I see the freedom, but I don't see enough reigning in when it's needed. I also don't see a focus on getting things EXACTLY right. He's the type that 95% correct is good enough...

NO has given Stotts a unbalanced roster the last 2 years. I'd like to make sure the Front Office is set first, before making a coaching change. Besides, most GMs like to pick their own coach

 

[Orion Bailey]

Most definitely, it could be a lot worse. Look at Sacramento or Orlando...
However, a lot of us believe it COULD be much better.

Using GSW as an example - they were in a "good" to "very good" spot with Jackson with them winning 47 and 51 games in '13 and '14. They still had the balls to make a change to the coaching staff because they didn't believe Jackson had the ability to take them to a championship.

I'm looking at the Blazers here, and they are average to good. I don't believe that NO has the ability to take the Blazers to a true contender (based on his 6-year reign as GM). I think a change needs to be made. Things are not terrible, but they could be a HELL of a lot BETTER.


Better draft position does not always equal better future.

I think Luke Walton dispelled your statement here.

GSW wouldn't be where it is regardless of coaching if they didn't balance the roster with Klay and get lucky with Draymond being a second round pick.

I don't think the change that took the m to another level was the coach, it was the players.

 

[Minstrel]

I think Luke Walton dispelled your statement here.

I don't think he did. Walton simply ran Kerr's system. The Warriors were good defensively but mediocre offensively with Jackson. Jackson ran a stagnant, iso-based offense that didn't take advantage of his players at all. I don't think it's a coincidence that Green broke out under Kerr.

Walton kept the machine running, but he didn't create the machine. That said, obviously having great talent matters. But having a coach who can optimize the talent matters a lot.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

The S2 tribe has spoken.

It is so.

FIRE NEIL!

 

[LayneStaley]

We would be WORSE with Melo, thank god Neil didn’t get his way on that one.

 

[hoopsjock]

We would be WORSE with Melo, thank god Neil didn’t get his way on that one.

Honestly, that depends on who we gave up to get him.

 

[Denny Crane]

Agreed, and the team would be better off going forward.

We'd have missed the playoffs. That's not better off, by any measure. The object is to win as many games as possible.

Or, mediocre-to-bad players shouldn't be signed to huge contracts. That also helps.

I think we basically agree. The Blazers would have been better off not massively overpaying Turner, Crabbe and Leonard, because they'd have more space now to sign guys like Nurkic, Napier and any other players they happen across that turn out to be actually good. Unfortunately, there is no way to time travel back, so we have to move past it.

Good discussion!

All teams face these problems. In fact, we were able to sign Turner because of Boston's lack of flexibility because of all the cap space they accrued. They couldn't re-sign their own player!

Crabbe isn't being paid by the team anymore. That's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to how you're wrong on this.

What you seem to fail to realize is that the roster can change at trade deadlines and between seasons. You cannot know that Nurk and Napier and other players who turn out to be good won't be signed.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Check the archives. There were several people flat out against some of the signings while some were hesitant giving ridiculous $$$ to some of the players.

And then I think there were a ton of us who thought: "well, it doesn't seem that great, had hoped for better, but now that it's done, I hope it works out." Unfortunately it hasn't, and we wish our GM had done better and been smarter.