Game Thread Preseason Game #1 - Blazers vs Raptors in Vancouver BC

[kjironman1]

You say that coaches say it is not a reliable motion like that is a fact or something. It's not, in fact there is scientific evidence that it can be more reliable. Now I am not saying everyone should shoot granny style but to say that the Blazers shouldn't have signed this guy because he shoots them that way with no reason other than it looks stupid and shouldn't be in the NBA is completely dumb in my opinion. I asked you what it mattered how he shot them and you gave me a fucking lame answer about how you knew someone would ask you that question. Instead of it leading to a discussion about whether players who struggle with free throws should or shouldn't try shooting it that way you turned it into something else. You flat out made up your assertion that just about every coach thinks it is not a coachable shot. Let's face, people just don't shoot them that way because they don't want to be laughed at. I actually applaud Onuaku for trying it knowing how much ridicule he'd get for it. I also used the example of Barry's son Canyon shooting 88.3% in his senior year at Florida shooting them underhanded.

You keep bringing up Rick Barry's son Canyon. Yeah i can use the internet also. Please post his NBA stats.
You also seem to want to continue to post that i said things i didn't say. "Looks really stupid and shouldn't be in the NBA" was never said. What i said was it is uncoachable and has no place in the NBA. But that is nitpicking.
Coaches don't coach this shot because of the mechanics involved. From pee wee leagues where kids are not strong enough to get the ball to the hoop (They move the line in) to grade school, to high school, to College to the NBA very rarely do you find a coach willing to coach that shot. That is fact.
But the Blazers did indeed end up with a dude that is using it. Lets hope it works out well for him. At this point Onauku is at 50% 2-4 not including fan fest. Here is a good stat i dug up on the guy. he was 4-4 in 2016-17 playing for Houston.

 

[hoopsjock]

You keep bringing up Rick Barry's son Canyon. Yeah i can use the internet also. Please post his NBA stats.
You also seem to want to continue to post that i said things i didn't say. "Looks really stupid and shouldn't be in the NBA" was never said. What i said was it is uncoachable and has no place in the NBA. But that is nitpicking.
Coaches don't coach this shot because of the mechanics involved. From pee wee leagues where kids are not strong enough to get the ball to the hoop (They move the line in) to grade school, to high school, to College to the NBA very rarely do you find a coach willing to coach that shot. That is fact.
But the Blazers did indeed end up with a dude that is using it. Lets hope it works out well for him. At this point Onauku is at 50% 2-4 not including fan fest. Here is a good stat i dug up on the guy. he was 4-4 in 2016-17 playing for Houston.

I'm sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth but your initial posts on the matter pretty clearly indicate that you think it's dumb and not because of the coaching angle.

It's not taught by coaches because it looks dumb and kids don't want to shoot that way. It has very little to do with whether it works or not. That is completely different than coaches saying it doesn't work.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

You keep bringing up Rick Barry's son Canyon. Yeah i can use the internet also. Please post his NBA stats.
You also seem to want to continue to post that i said things i didn't say. "Looks really stupid and shouldn't be in the NBA" was never said. What i said was it is uncoachable and has no place in the NBA. But that is nitpicking.
Coaches don't coach this shot because of the mechanics involved. From pee wee leagues where kids are not strong enough to get the ball to the hoop (They move the line in) to grade school, to high school, to College to the NBA very rarely do you find a coach willing to coach that shot. That is fact.
But the Blazers did indeed end up with a dude that is using it. Lets hope it works out well for him. At this point Onauku is at 50% 2-4 not including fan fest. Here is a good stat i dug up on the guy. he was 4-4 in 2016-17 playing for Houston.

I would submit that coaches don't coach it because they don't want to coach two different shooting motions. If your free throw motion echos your jump-shot motion, then it's just simpler for the coach, and reinforces the muscle memory regardless of where you're shooting.

However, I would submit that if a player has demonstrated a deficiency at the free throw line using a standard form, there's no downside to at least considering an alternative.

And if a player has considered the alternative and found success with it--regardless of how unorthodox it may be--there's no reason not to use it. Even in the NBA.

 

[jlprk]

Last season, we were told that unlike Davis, Collins can shoot. Collins was told to shoot from about 15. He missed almost all, and this board kept praising what a shooter he was, assuming that he would start making them. It's not happening.

Olshey forced out Davis, one of our 2 defenders (Aminu) because he thinks Collins is such a shooter. Olshey should have held Davis for at least one more year, to make sure. But Olshey is bedazzled by offense, not defense.

That's a bizarre thing to say give how much more advanced Collins' defense is than his offense. It was his defense, not his offense, that got him minutes last season, and it will be his defense that keeps him in the rotation this season as he continues to struggle on offense.

Why would Collins' defense have gotten him minutes over defensive ace Davis? It was Olshey's expectation of Collins' offense, not defense, which got Collins all those undeserved development minutes.

 

[jlprk]

Most everyone i know calls it the granny shot.

Maybe in your crowd. I think I've heard that phrase once before in all these years.

Whatever... You like the granny shot. Okay i'm good with that. Nobody else does it and there is a reason why. Sorry to ruffle your feathers Hoops.

What are the reasons?

 

[jlprk]

Man! Alittle too much put on the 1st preseason game in which your "BEST" player played a whopping 12 minutes. The Blazers will be fine. Collins is still developing, and will be fine. Way too early for doom and gloom. And if the final outcome is so important, then the fact our starters beat their starters should be just as important, and the fact that "Their" starters played more minutes, almost half against our bench, shows it seemed to mean more to their coaches, than ours.

Straw man. No one in the thread felt gloom and doom that we lost. Instead, people evaluated individual players.

I want to see how Collins does through the season before I make any judgements on his progress. There are guys who go four years in this league before reaching their potential.

With the same team? Who?

 

[jlprk]

Ed has been in the league for many years and still doesn't have a consistent inside offensive game?

Davis had the best inside offensive game on our team last year. Who was better?

When people criticize his offense, they're talking about his shooting range, not his ability to slide in miracle layups through defenders' outstretched arms, which he did better than any other Blazer.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Why would Collins' defense have gotten him minutes over defensive ace Davis? It was Olshey's expectation of Collins' offense, not defense, which got Collins all those undeserved development minutes.

Ah I see, you're one of those posters who doesn't actually watch the games and just bases your opinions on box scores, hearsay, innuendo and delusions.

I never said Collins got minutes OVER Davis, because he didn't. If you had watched the games, you'd know that. They were almost always on the floor together - Davis as the backup center and Collins as the back up power forward. Collins didn't get "all those undeserved development minutes" playing instead of Davis, he got those minutes playing next to him. Seriously, this is a stretch, even for you, someone who constantly tries to make up "facts" to suit your agenda.

Here you go, some facts. The Blazers top 5-man units in terms of playing time:



Collins isn't mentioned once without Davis by his side. So much for your theory that Collins got "all those undeserved development minutes" because Olshey (who isn't the coach) preferred Collins' offense over Davis' defense.

 

[hoopsjock]

Last season, we were told that unlike Davis, Collins can shoot. Collins was told to shoot from about 15. He missed almost all, and this board kept praising what a shooter he was, assuming that he would start making them. It's not happening.

Olshey forced out Davis, one of our 2 defenders (Aminu) because he thinks Collins is such a shooter. Olshey should have held Davis for at least one more year, to make sure. But Olshey is bedazzled by offense, not defense.



Why would Collins' defense have gotten him minutes over defensive ace Davis? It was Olshey's expectation of Collins' offense, not defense, which got Collins all those undeserved development minutes.

Davis is actually a very average defender. He's not a liability but also certainly not the defensive "ace" you are implying he is.

 

[jlprk]

I don't want Dame shooting underhand but maybe a guy like Ed Davis should have.

Now that Davis is gone because Collins supposedly shoots better, some pick on Ed.

Last year, Davis shot FTs at .667, Collins .643, and Nurkic .630.

(You want 2-point %? Davis .584, Collins .455.)

 

[hoopsjock]

Now that Davis is gone because Collins supposedly shoots better, some pick on Ed.

Last year, Davis shot FTs at .667, Collins .643, and Nurkic .630.

(You want 2-point %? Davis .584, Collins .455.)

I'm not picking on ED, just using him as an example. In fact Ed was pretty respectable from the FT line last year. In the 3 seasons prior he shot 61.7%, 55.9%, and 48.7% though.

 

[jlprk]

Ah I see, you're one of those posters who doesn't actually watch the games and just bases your opinions on box scores, hearsay, innuendo and delusions.

(etc. etc. too long to quote, see original post)

Are you delusional? Where in my quote did I say that Davis and Collins didn't play together at the same time? Please point out my exact words saying that. As usual, you wrote a triumphant diatribe opposing a straw man.

 

[Hoopguru]

Davis had the best inside offensive game on our team last year. Who was better?

When people criticize his offense, they're talking about his shooting range, not his ability to slide in miracle layups through defenders' outstretched arms, which he did better than any other Blazer.

No doubt he could do it in close, I just don't think his forte was D and rebounding much like Zacks is now.

 

[jlprk]

Davis is actually a very average defender. He's not a liability but also certainly not the defensive "ace" you are implying he is.

On many NBA teams, you're right, although I was thinking only of substitutes around the NBA. But in comparison to other Stotts players, he and Aminu were our defensive aces (which Blazer was better? maybe Aminu only because of Aminu's energy). As for rebounding, he ranked well leaguewide.

“Rebounding is just what I do,” said Davis, who ranked fifth in the NBA with an offensive rebound percentage of 13.9. “It’s second nature.”

https://www.newsday.com/sports/bask...ngthen-nets-presence-on-the-boards-1.21312911

 

[hoopsjock]

On many NBA teams, you're right, although I was thinking only of substitutes around the NBA. But in comparison to other Stotts players, he and Aminu were our defensive aces (which Blazer was better? maybe Aminu only because of Aminu's energy). As for rebounding, he ranked well leaguewide.



https://www.newsday.com/sports/bask...ngthen-nets-presence-on-the-boards-1.21312911

Nurk is our defensive ace. With virtually the same roster the team went from one of the worst defenses in the league to a top-10 defense. His rim protection is elite.

I'd also say that Collins is better defensively than Davis. Davis might be slightly better for one on one post defense until Zach fills out physically but Collins is better at positioning, help defense, and is quicker to guard the perimeter when they get switched on picks.

Collins definitely fouls too much at this stage and Davis does have an advantage rebounding like you mentioned.

 

[jlprk]

Davis might be slightly better for one on one post defense until Zach fills out physically...Collins definitely fouls too much at this stage and Davis does have an advantage rebounding like you mentioned.

This argument that Collins will eventually be better than Davis, or that Collins needs 2 years--let's say that's right (I think it's only 50-50 he'll eventually be better than Davis is now, but let's say it's definitely Collins eventually). Well, then Olshey should have kept Davis until Collins is better. At $4 million/year, what was the rush to get rid of Ed? The only way you dump Davis now, is if Collins is better right now, and even his defenders in this thread say he needs more time, and to be patient.

 

[hoopsjock]

This argument that Collins will eventually be better than Davis, or that Collins needs 2 years--let's say that's right (I think it's only 50-50 he'll eventually be better than Davis is now, but let's say it's definitely Collins eventually). Well, then Olshey should have kept Davis until Collins is better. At $4 million/year, what was the rush to get rid of Ed? The only way you dump Davis now, is if Collins is better right now, and even his defenders in this thread say he needs more time, and to be patient.

You are cherry picking certain things and lumping me in with other posters. I said I think Collins is a better overall defender right now than Davis is. They both have their strengths and weaknesses but I think the areas Collins has the advantage are more suited for the style of play currently in the NBA. I'm strictly talking about it in terms of defense and you keep switching it to offense.

I think most people in here would have wanted Davis to stay for $4.4 million, especially since the front court is pretty thin and is looking like Meyers and Swanigan will have to have bigger roles this year. I do understand the sink or swim mentality of putting Collins in a big role though. If he fails to develop then this team isn't going anywhere after using the 10th pick in a loaded draft on him. I don't think they necessarily chose Collins over Ed Davis, it's more like they are hoping to accelerate the growth of Collins by throwing him into the fire. With or without Davis if Collins fails to show the capability of being a solid contributor in the NBA then Olshey is doomed anyway.

 

[Propagandist]

You are cherry picking certain things and lumping me in with other posters. I said I think Collins is a better overall defender right now than Davis is. They both have their strengths and weaknesses but I think the areas Collins has the advantage are more suited for the style of play currently in the NBA. I'm strictly talking about it in terms of defense and you keep switching it to offense.

I think most people in here would have wanted Davis to stay for $4.4 million, especially since the front court is pretty thin and is looking like Meyers and Swanigan will have to have bigger roles this year. I do understand the sink or swim mentality of putting Collins in a big role though. If he fails to develop then this team isn't going anywhere after using the 10th pick in a loaded draft on him. I don't think they necessarily chose Collins over Ed Davis, it's more like they are hoping to accelerate the growth of Collins by throwing him into the fire. With or without Davis if Collins fails to show the capability of being a solid contributor in the NBA then Olshey is doomed anyway.

Yeah, if I remember correctly, Olshey referenced veterans stymying CJ's development as one of the justification for not resigning Ed. Makes some sense, I think.

 

[jlprk]

To me, it's 50-50 whether Collins will ever be better than Davis is now. As for this particular season, my answer is: Ed, 100% probability.

But we shouldn't have to resolve that question for this particular year. Instead of guessing, we could afford to keep both, and let events decide. This one time that Olshey should have let the cake bake, he rushed.

 

[Boob-No-More]

What would have been the point of keeping Ed Davis this year? Is he really the key to us challenging Golden State for Western Conference supremacy this season? If not, keeping him only blocks Zach Collins' development. Collins needs to develop an inside game to reach his full potential and that was never going to happen with him playing next to Ed and his 2.4 ft. average made FG distance.

Ed was not part of the team's future. At this point, Collins is. The organization believed enough in Zach Collins to take him with the 10th pick in a deep draft. They need to find out if he can actually be as good as they predicted when they drafted him, and the only way to find out for sure is to get him as much playing time as possible, in the role you envision him playing. And, if he doesn't live up to expectations, it's better to find out sooner rather than later.

With, or without, Ed we aren't making the finals, or even the conference finals this season. He may have helped us win a couple more regular season games, but at the end of the year, we wouldn't be 100% sure what we have in Zach Collins. How Zach Collins plays this season will influence who we draft next June and what other roster moves/trades we make next July. Keeping Ed would have been short sighted for a team that is not yet in win now mode.

BNM

 

[THE HCP]

What would have been the point of keeping Ed Davis this year? Is he really the key to us challenging Golden State for Western Conference supremacy this season? If not, keeping him only blocks Zach Collins' development. Collins needs to develop an inside game to reach his full potential and that was never going to happen with him playing next to Ed and his 2.4 ft. average made FG distance.

Ed was not part of the team's future. At this point, Collins is. The organization believed enough in Zach Collins to take him with the 10th pick in a deep draft. They need to find out if he can actually be as good as they predicted when they drafted him, and the only way to find out for sure is to get him as much playing time as possible, in the role you envision him playing. And, if he doesn't live up to expectations, it's better to find out sooner rather than later.

With, or without, Ed we aren't making the finals, or even the conference finals this season. He may have helped us win a couple more regular season games, but at the end of the year, we wouldn't be 100% sure what we have in Zach Collins. How Zach Collins plays this season will influence who we draft next June and what other roster moves/trades we make next July. Keeping Ed would have been short sighted for a team that is not yet in win now mode.

BNM

You are now BLOCKED!

 

[Boob-No-More]

You are now BLOCKED!

Seriously, Ed was one of my favorite players, and is better than Zach Collins today, but Ed was the past and Zach is the future. It's possible to still like Ed while also realizing that we need to see what we have in Zach Collins.

BNM

 

[jlprk]

What would have been the point of keeping Ed Davis this year? Is he really the key to us challenging Golden State for Western Conference supremacy this season? If not, keeping him only blocks Zach Collins' development.

That assumes Collins will become a Sterling Starter, much better than Davis. At present, Collins is much worse than Davis. His Pillar Potential may live only in Olshey's head, along with McCollum's potential to back up Lillard at PG, another figment of Olshey's wandering mind. Should I list Olshey's other misevaluations?

Ed was not part of the team's future.

Translation: Olshey pre-decided the future without waiting to see whether it will come true.

 

[THE HCP]

Seriously, Ed was one of my favorite players, and is better than Zach Collins today, but Ed was the past and Zach is the future. It's possible to still like Ed while also realizing that we need to see what we have in Zach Collins.

BNM

You are now on IGNORE again. Don't bother replying cause I won't see it.

 

[hoopsjock]

What would have been the point of keeping Ed Davis this year? Is he really the key to us challenging Golden State for Western Conference supremacy this season? If not, keeping him only blocks Zach Collins' development. Collins needs to develop an inside game to reach his full potential and that was never going to happen with him playing next to Ed and his 2.4 ft. average made FG distance.

Ed was not part of the team's future. At this point, Collins is. The organization believed enough in Zach Collins to take him with the 10th pick in a deep draft. They need to find out if he can actually be as good as they predicted when they drafted him, and the only way to find out for sure is to get him as much playing time as possible, in the role you envision him playing. And, if he doesn't live up to expectations, it's better to find out sooner rather than later.

With, or without, Ed we aren't making the finals, or even the conference finals this season. He may have helped us win a couple more regular season games, but at the end of the year, we wouldn't be 100% sure what we have in Zach Collins. How Zach Collins plays this season will influence who we draft next June and what other roster moves/trades we make next July. Keeping Ed would have been short sighted for a team that is not yet in win now mode.

BNM

My only counter to this is that decision should have been made on February 8th when the Blazers had just lost 3 in a row and were 29-25. They could've possibly gotten a 2nd round pick and ducked the luxury tax line instead of paying Chicago to take Vonleh. They also could've used that 2nd round pick to get Trent easier instead of giving up two future 2nd rounders.

 

[hoopsjock]

That assumes Collins will become a Sterling Starter, much better than Davis. At present, Collins is much worse than Davis. His Pillar Potential may live only in Olshey's head, along with McCollum's potential to back up Lillard at PG, another figment of Olshey's wandering mind. Should I list Olshey's other misevaluations?



Translation: Olshey pre-decided the future without waiting to see whether it will come true.

Collins is "much worse" than Davis? Even if that was the case last year you would be expecting Collins to show zero improvement for that to still be true.

 

[jlprk]

Collins is "much worse" than Davis? Even if that was the case last year you would be expecting Collins to show zero improvement for that to still be true.

When and if Collims surpasses Davis, that's when to move Davis. Olshey has been wrong more times than right, so it may never happen. Last year Davis was our 4th-best player, and Collins was about our 4th-worst, and that's per minute. Collins needs at least another year to exceed Davis, if ever.

 

[hoopsjock]

When and if Collims surpasses Davis, that's when to move Davis. Olshey has been wrong more times than right, so it may never happen. Last year Davis was our 4th-best player, and Collins was about our 4th-worst, and that's per minute. Collins needs at least another year to exceed Davis, if ever.

So there is absolutely no value in trying to accelerate the growth of Collins?

 

[chzbrgr]

Collins is "much worse" than Davis? Even if that was the case last year you would be expecting Collins to show zero improvement for that to still be true.

Don’t mean to be a dick but, what improvement have you seen so far? I expect him to improve a little but not enough to catch ed Davis. There is a wide gap between Collins and Davis, a real wide gap, and I haven’t seen anything from Collins that tells me he is ready for an increased role.

 

[hoopsjock]

Don’t mean to be a dick but, what improvement have you seen so far? I expect him to improve a little but not enough to catch ed Davis. There is a wide gap between Collins and Davis, a real wide gap, and I haven’t seen anything from Collins that tells me he is ready for an increased role.

I've already stated that I think Collins is better than Davis defensively or at least more suited for today's NBA. Offensively he's quoting stats from last year. They haven't even played a real game yet so we have no data to compare Collins growth from last year to this year and how that compares to Davis from last year.

It's fine to not believe in Collins, I get that some people want to see better results and that there is no patience for development anymore. A couple of you are making Ed out to be an All-NBA level player, he's not. He's a decent role player off the bench. Get outta here with this "real wide gap" stuff.