Progressives are wrong about the essence of the Constitution

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Denny Crane

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...05aa00-c4ac-11e3-bcec-b71ee10e9bc3_print.html

By George F. Will, Published: April 16

In a 2006 interview, Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer said the Constitution is “basically about” one word — “democracy” — that appears in neither that document nor the Declaration of Independence. Democracy is America’s way of allocating political power. The Constitution, however, was adopted to confine that power in order to “secure the blessings of” that which simultaneously justifies and limits democratic government — natural liberty.

The fundamental division in U.S. politics is between those who take their bearings from the individual’s right to a capacious, indeed indefinite, realm of freedom, and those whose fundamental value is the right of the majority to have its way in making rules about which specified liberties shall be respected.

Now the nation no longer lacks what it has long needed, a slender book that lucidly explains the intensity of conservatism’s disagreements with progressivism. For the many Americans who are puzzled and dismayed by the heatedness of political argument today, the message of Timothy Sandefur’s “The Conscience of the Constitution: The Declaration of Independence and the Right to Liberty” is this: The temperature of today’s politics is commensurate to the stakes of today’s argument.

The argument is between conservatives who say U.S. politics is basically about a condition, liberty, and progressives who say it is about a process, democracy. Progressives, who consider democracy the source of liberty, reverse the Founders’ premise, which was: Liberty preexists governments, which, the Declaration says, are legitimate when “instituted” to “secure” natural rights.

Progressives consider, for example, the rights to property and free speech as, in Sandefur’s formulation, “spaces of privacy” that government chooses “to carve out and protect” to the extent that these rights serve democracy. Conservatives believe that liberty, understood as a general absence of interference, and individual rights, which cannot be exhaustively listed, are natural and that governmental restrictions on them must be as few as possible and rigorously justified. Merely invoking the right of a majority to have its way is an insufficient justification.

With the Declaration, Americans ceased claiming the rights of aggrieved Englishmen and began asserting rights that are universal because they are natural, meaning necessary for the flourishing of human nature. “In Europe,” wrote James Madison, “charters of liberty have been granted by power,” but America has “charters of power granted by liberty.”

Sandefur, principal attorney at the Pacific Legal Foundation, notes that since the 1864 admission of Nevada to statehood, every state’s admission has been conditioned on adoption of a constitution consistent with the U.S. Constitution and the Declaration . The Constitution is the nation’s fundamental law but is not the first law. The Declaration is, appearing on Page 1 of Volume 1 of the U.S. Statutes at Large, and the Congress has placed it at the head of the United States Code, under the caption, “The Organic Laws of the United States of America.” Hence the Declaration “sets the framework” for reading the Constitution not as “basically about” democratic government — majorities — granting rights but about natural rights defining the limits of even democratic government.

The perennial conflict in American politics, Sandefur says, concerns “which takes precedence: the individual’s right to freedom, or the power of the majority to govern.” The purpose of the post-Civil War’s 14th Amendment protection of Americans’ “privileges or immunities” — protections vitiated by an absurdly narrow Supreme Court reading of that clause in 1873 — was to assert, on behalf of emancipated blacks, national rights of citizens. National citizenship grounded on natural rights would thwart Southern states then asserting their power to acknowledge only such rights as they chose to dispense.

Government, the framers said, is instituted to improve upon the state of nature, in which the individual is at the mercy of the strong. But when democracy, meaning the process of majority rule, is the supreme value — when it is elevated to the status of what the Constitution is “basically about” — the individual is again at the mercy of the strong, the strength of mere numbers.

Sandefur says progressivism “inverts America’s constitutional foundations” by holding that the Constitution is “about” democracy, which rejects the framers’ premise that majority rule is legitimate “only within the boundaries” of the individual’s natural rights. These include — indeed, are mostly — unenumerated rights whose existence and importance are affirmed by the Ninth Amendment.

Many conservatives should be discomfited by Sandefur’s analysis, which entails this conclusion: Their indiscriminate denunciations of “judicial activism” inadvertently serve progressivism. The protection of rights, those constitutionally enumerated and others, requires a judiciary actively engaged in enforcing what the Constitution is “basically about,” which is making majority power respect individuals’ rights.
 
I think he's misguided if he thinks conservatives don't want to use the will of the majority to establish rules everyone else must obey. See abortion or gay rights or immigration.

He's spot on about the twisted view of the constitution by Progressives.
 
It's funny how nobody who truly knows all about the constitution has become a politician...
 
I think he's misguided if he thinks conservatives don't want to use the will of the majority to establish rules everyone else must obey. See abortion or gay rights or immigration.

He's spot on about the twisted view of the constitution by Progressives.

I would say he is spot on period.

Where you seem to differ on the Abortion issue odd to me. The Constitution say nothing about Abortion nor should it. Therefore it is not a Federal issue and therefore the 10th amendment is the rule, it is matter for the States. The
Court with a mindless ruling has made this one of the top political issue for 40 years and we have many more important issues to deal with. This is a case where the court stepped in and made an issue a perpetual issue.

Immigration as screwed up as it is, is only a problem because the Executives do not enforce the laws that are on the books. They want new ones, but new ones are the business of congress. That has nothing to do with majority views.

Sort of funny, they might be able to secure the border if they gave it the priority they give to one old rancher in Nevada.

Gay rights is another odd issue that only becomes an issue when you change the definition of the word "Marriage". No one was complaining about Poligamy being restricted but they will now that Marriage is now not to be restricted to one man one woman. It seems to me that the correct solution for the Federal goverment and the States is to get out of the Marriage definition business and leave it to the people and their church of choice since it is the joining of a man and woman in the eyes of God.
 
Then again those Founders claimed liberties if you were caucasian and male and adult. Slaves, women, indentured servants, indigenous peoples and child laborers didn't have those empowering liberties, so the times have changed eh?
 
Then again those Founders claimed liberties if you were caucasian and male and adult. Slaves, women, indentured servants, indigenous peoples and child laborers didn't have those empowering liberties, so the times have changed eh?

Slavery was a sore subject long before there was a concept of Progressive. The founders would have abolished it, but the economy relied too heavily upon it. Instead, they settled for setting a future date when no more slaves could be imported. The Civil War ended decades before the Progressive Era.

If Progressives want to take credit for something, NSA spying on its citizens is the perfect one.

Or maybe http://www.princeton.edu/~tleonard/papers/retrospectives.pdf
 
I would say he is spot on period.

Where you seem to differ on the Abortion issue odd to me. The Constitution say nothing about Abortion nor should it. Therefore it is not a Federal issue and therefore the 10th amendment is the rule, it is matter for the States. The
Court with a mindless ruling has made this one of the top political issue for 40 years and we have many more important issues to deal with. This is a case where the court stepped in and made an issue a perpetual issue.

Immigration as screwed up as it is, is only a problem because the Executives do not enforce the laws that are on the books. They want new ones, but new ones are the business of congress. That has nothing to do with majority views.

Sort of funny, they might be able to secure the border if they gave it the priority they give to one old rancher in Nevada.

Gay rights is another odd issue that only becomes an issue when you change the definition of the word "Marriage". No one was complaining about Poligamy being restricted but they will now that Marriage is now not to be restricted to one man one woman. It seems to me that the correct solution for the Federal goverment and the States is to get out of the Marriage definition business and leave it to the people and their church of choice since it is the joining of a man and woman in the eyes of God.

Proof conservatives would use the will of the majority to establish rules everyone else must obey. If YOU don't want an abortion, YOU don't have to.

The constitution does talk about abortion in the sense of rights to privacy and right to pursue happiness and right to property (the woman's body is HER property).

The constitution doesn't say anything about immigration. It does grant congress the right to determine citizenship, and it does mention Persons (capital P) 22 times - a Person is citizen or non-citizen.

The constitution doesn't say anything about who may marry. But again, right to pursue happiness.
 
Slavery was a sore subject long before there was a concept of Progressive. The founders would have abolished it, but the economy relied too heavily upon it. Instead, they settled for setting a future date when no more slaves could be imported. The Civil War ended decades before the Progressive Era.

If Progressives want to take credit for something, NSA spying on its citizens is the perfect one.

Or maybe http://www.princeton.edu/~tleonard/papers/retrospectives.pdf

Richard Nixon was a staunch conservative spying on people as was Hoover.
 
Proof conservatives would use the will of the majority to establish rules everyone else must obey. If YOU don't want an abortion, YOU don't have to.

The constitution does talk about abortion in the sense of rights to privacy and right to pursue happiness and right to property (the woman's body is HER property).

The constitution doesn't say anything about immigration. It does grant congress the right to determine citizenship, and it does mention Persons (capital P) 22 times - a Person is citizen or non-citizen.

The constitution doesn't say anything about who may marry. But again, right to pursue happiness.

You make one rather large error in your assumptions Denny, that a conservative would never do. The Constitution is the follow on to the Declaration of Independence as best Congress could do to make it so. Therefore the Constitution is not defining nor implying any rights, it is simply laying out how this Representative republican government will protect the rights of the citizens, as the DoI states in the mission. "
"all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,
deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

Rights do not come from the government, they come from the creator and the government is in place protect these rights.

Abortion, happiness, and property are not rights and nothing says States can not place some obstacles in the path, indeed the 10th amendment says they can. Where as the even the States are prohibited to muck with your choice of arms as given in the 2nd amendment, or your right to free speech as given in the 1st, or your Liberty as given in the 4th and 5th.

I seriously doubt that anyone of sane mind would argue that the creator would categorize "Abortion" as a right. Barrack Obama may well do so, I heard him say "Health Care" is a right a couple days ago, but I am not sure even the son of God would go there.
 
Richard Nixon was a staunch conservative spying on people as was Hoover.

Nixon was a liberal, geez.

He spied on us like Obama does.

See:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/21/noam-chomsky-richard-nixon_n_4832847.html (if you don't know who Chomsky is, read up on him, too).

Or:
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=nixon+liberal&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

17,000,000 matches.

Nixon implemented the EPA, OSHA, negative income tax, quota-based affirmative action, Clean Air Act, Environmental Policy Act of 1969, mandatory participation of the states in Food Stamps program, etc.
 
You make one rather large error in your assumptions Denny, that a conservative would never do. The Constitution is the follow on to the Declaration of Independence as best Congress could do to make it so. Therefore the Constitution is not defining nor implying any rights, it is simply laying out how this Representative republican government will protect the rights of the citizens, as the DoI states in the mission. "
"all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,
deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

Rights do not come from the government, they come from the creator and the government is in place protect these rights.

Abortion, happiness, and property are not rights and nothing says States can not place some obstacles in the path, indeed the 10th amendment says they can. Where as the even the States are prohibited to muck with your choice of arms as given in the 2nd amendment, or your right to free speech as given in the 1st, or your Liberty as given in the 4th and 5th.

I seriously doubt that anyone of sane mind would argue that the creator would categorize "Abortion" as a right. Barrack Obama may well do so, I heard him say "Health Care" is a right a couple days ago, but I am not sure even the son of God would go there.

Abortion, Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness are rights. That's where you went wrong. You also missed the 22 times (not counting amendments) the word Person is used (not Citizen).

The very first thing in the congressional record is the declaration of independence. It was made the first law by act of congress.
 
Abortion, Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness are rights. That's where you went wrong. You also missed the 22 times (not counting amendments) the word Person is used (not Citizen).

The very first thing in the congressional record is the declaration of independence. It was made the first law by act of congress.

Talking out your hat Denny, "Abortion" and "Happiness" are not in the list, Life, Liberty, "Pursuit of Happiness" are
by DoI but not completely protected by the Constitution, only to extent of protections in the bill of rights.

I totally miss your point on what "person" has to do with anything about a conservative view?
 
I view the Constitution as a series of negative rights. It's a list of what the government cannot do to you. Also, anything that is not taken by the Federal government is by definition given to the states.
 
Nixon was a liberal, geez.

He spied on us like Obama does.

See:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/21/noam-chomsky-richard-nixon_n_4832847.html (if you don't know who Chomsky is, read up on him, too).

Or:
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=nixon+liberal&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

17,000,000 matches.

Nixon implemented the EPA, OSHA, negative income tax, quota-based affirmative action, Clean Air Act, Environmental Policy Act of 1969, mandatory participation of the states in Food Stamps program, etc.

Then I'm guessing J Edgar Hoover was a progressive as well? I don't think so. Nixon was pretty far from liberal Denny.
 
Talking out your hat Denny, "Abortion" and "Happiness" are not in the list, Life, Liberty, "Pursuit of Happiness" are
by DoI but not completely protected by the Constitution, only to extent of protections in the bill of rights.

I totally miss your point on what "person" has to do with anything about a conservative view?

I've written "pursuit of happiness" 3 times in 3 different posts. Not solely "happiness" once. Who's talking out of whose hat?

The constitution talks about Persons and it gives congress the right to NATURALIZE citizens, but it doesn't say squat about keeping people you don't want here out.
 
Then I'm guessing J Edgar Hoover was a progressive as well? I don't think so. Nixon was pretty far from liberal Denny.

http://scholarsandrogues.com/2008/06/24/a-progressive-for-our-times/

Let’s say this guy was running for president on a third-party ticket:

proven track record for getting country out of wars
strong foreign policy diplomat who forged stronger relationships with powerful developing (and enemy) nations
implemented the first significant federal affirmative action program
dramatically increased spending on federal employee salaries
organized a daily press event and daily message for the media
oversaw first large-scale integration of public schools in the South
advocated comprehensive national health insurance for all Americans
imposed wage and price controls in times of crisis
indexed Social Security for inflation and created Supplemental Security Income
created the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), and the Office of Minority Business Enterprise
promoted the Legacy of Parks program
appointed four Supreme Court Justices, three of which voted with the majority in Roe v. Wade
Have you figured out where this is going yet?

(The Liberal, Richard Nixon).

How about Michael Moore? He should know a Liberal when he sees one:

http://www.discussanything.com/foru...ore-quot-Nixon-Was-Our-Most-Liberal-Pres-quot

Nixon was more liberal than the last five presidents we've had. His administration opened up a dialogue with China. He was instrumental in establishing affirmative action in hiring and protecting the rights of women. He was the first president to sign agreements on nuclear weapons control. Nixon was responsible for the 1970 Clean Air Act. He also attempted a type of welfare reform that would have guaranteed an income for the poor. Nixon still should have been run out of office, and the millions of dead in south-east Asia will haunt him throughout eternity. But to think that he was the last "liberal" in office just makes me want to puke.
 
Then I'm guessing J Edgar Hoover was a progressive as well? I don't think so. Nixon was pretty far from liberal Denny.

You ask about Hoover?

He came in to bust booze smugglers during the prohibition. Prohibition was another Progressive idea, typically bad idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism_in_the_United_States#Prohibition

Prohibition[edit]

Most progressives, especially in rural areas, adopted the cause of prohibition.[37] They saw the saloon as political corruption incarnate, and bewailed the damage done to women and children. They believed the consumption of alcohol limited mankind's potential for advancement.[38] Progressives achieved success first with state laws then with the enactment of the Eighteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution in 1919. The golden day did not dawn; enforcement was lax, especially in the cities where notorious criminal gangs, such as the Chicago gang of Al Capone made a crime spree based on illegal sales of liquor in speakeasies. The "experiment" (as President Hoover called it) also cost the treasury large sums of taxes and the 18th amendment was repealed by the Twenty-first Amendment to the U.S. Constitution in 1933.[39]
 
I view the Constitution as a series of negative rights. It's a list of what the government cannot do to you. Also, anything that is not taken by the Federal government is by definition given to the states.

Federal law trumps state law.

Article VI, clause 2

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.
 
I view the Constitution as a series of negative rights. It's a list of what the government cannot do to you. Also, anything that is not taken by the Federal government is by definition given to the states.

Agree.
 
I've written "pursuit of happiness" 3 times in 3 different posts. Not solely "happiness" once. Who's talking out of whose hat?

>>>True, you did. However you seem to imply not being allow to "Marry" as you see fit infringes on the "Pursuit of Happiness", It does not although it may be a temporary setback to happiness.

The constitution talks about Persons and it gives congress the right to NATURALIZE citizens, but it doesn't say squat about keeping people you don't want here out.
True but Congress has every right to control the boarders and even declare War if necessary.
 
You ask about Hoover?

He came in to bust booze smugglers during the prohibition. Prohibition was another Progressive idea, typically bad idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism_in_the_United_States#Prohibition

Prohibition[edit]

Most progressives, especially in rural areas, adopted the cause of prohibition.[37] They saw the saloon as political corruption incarnate, and bewailed the damage done to women and children. They believed the consumption of alcohol limited mankind's potential for advancement.[38] Progressives achieved success first with state laws then with the enactment of the Eighteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution in 1919. The golden day did not dawn; enforcement was lax, especially in the cities where notorious criminal gangs, such as the Chicago gang of Al Capone made a crime spree based on illegal sales of liquor in speakeasies. The "experiment" (as President Hoover called it) also cost the treasury large sums of taxes and the 18th amendment was repealed by the Twenty-first Amendment to the U.S. Constitution in 1933.[39]

Nah, Hoover spied on everyone. We define the term Progressive differently I guess as well as conservative. I did msg processing for Nixon and he was pretty far from liberal in my experience. Nixon opening up China...closing Taiwan.
 
Nah, Hoover spied on everyone. We define the term Progressive differently I guess as well as conservative. I did msg processing for Nixon and he was pretty far from liberal in my experience. Nixon opening up China...closing Taiwan.

China was left wing communist, no?

I define Progressive to be what it actually means :)

We saw it in action in the late 1800s thru FDR's terms and then again in the Carter and Obama years. Seen enough of it to not want any part of it.

You seem to think Progressivism is tied to a political party. Teddy Roosevelt was a Progressive, and a Republican. About the same time, Wilson was a Progressive and a Democrat.

I don't think at all that people claiming to be "conservatives" are conservative much. There's none of them talking and acting like Reagan or Buckley Jr. or Goldwater. Though George Will is no neocon... (he wrote the article in the OP)
 
True but Congress has every right to control the boarders and even declare War if necessary.

It has the right to declare war.

And the constitution is not a list of negative rights. It is a list of rights granted to government and a limited list at that.

Progressives believe and act like government owns everything and grants us our rights and property and other bits of well being. What government does is get in the way and cost way too much and make things cost way to much.
 
China was left wing communist, no?

I define Progressive to be what it actually means :)

We saw it in action in the late 1800s thru FDR's terms and then again in the Carter and Obama years. Seen enough of it to not want any part of it.

You seem to think Progressivism is tied to a political party. Teddy Roosevelt was a Progressive, and a Republican. About the same time, Wilson was a Progressive and a Democrat.

I don't think at all that people claiming to be "conservatives" are conservative much. There's none of them talking and acting like Reagan or Buckley Jr. or Goldwater. Though George Will is no neocon... (he wrote the article in the OP)

OK, my dictionary defines the Progressive political movement as having been chiefly introduced out of the Republican Party under Teddy Roosevelt in 1912, what it did was demand direct primaries, direct election of US senators, woman suffrage, recall of judicial decisions in some cases. Progressive taxation iis defined as a plan of taxation in which the rate increases by a cetain amount with certain increases in the amount of the income or wealth of the individual. What this has to do with Michael Moore, I'm not sure, but if you define the Progressive party, it didn't exist in 1800
 
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Michael Moore says Nixon was a Progressive. Takes one to know one.

I repeat:

You seem to think Progressivism is tied to a political party. Teddy Roosevelt was a Progressive, and a Republican. About the same time, Wilson was a Progressive and a Democrat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Era

The Progressive Era was a period of social activism and political reform in the United States, that flourished from the 1890s to the 1920s.

Please read on at the link. It is the basis of the belief system for fools like Obama and Carter and Pelosi, etc.
 
OK, my dictionary defines the Progressive political movement as having been chiefly introduced out of the Republican Party under Teddy Roosevelt in 1912, what it did was demand direct primaries, direct election of US senators, woman suffrage, recall of judicial decisions in some cases. Progressive taxation iis defined as a plan of taxation in which the rate increases by a cetain amount with certain increases in the amount of the income or wealth of the individual. What this has to do with Michael Moore, I'm not sure, but if you define the Progressive party, it didn't exist in 1800

Bingo! Teddy was a Republican as was Lincoln after they changed their name from Whigs who changed their name from Federlist. They held power so long through that stretch hardly a Democrat got a chance. Then came Wilson, the first phd President and he broke the code, he took the democrats hard left and Progressive after Teddy modeled the Progressive way.
But not all Democrats followed, in the south they resisted for many years the Dixiecrats and Northern Republicans were the anti progressive collision counter balance to the New wave Progressive democrats.

The Republicans then had to find their way after the Democrats held sway so long through FDR and Truman. They finally made their way to being as close to a Constitutional conservative party in the mold of Thomas Jefferson's Republicans (democrate republicans in name ) during the time of Reagan. That's when the Dixiecrats made their switch too.

So the Party's through two hundred years have manage a half turn in the helix political posturing. The Progressive mantel has flipped to the Dems now but it's funny, the term had lost favor back prior to WWII due to it being so close to the Fascist, especially Mussolini, a great admirer of Wilson. But since then the handle Liberal is losing favor an we see the return of Progressive although they are not all dems, a Republican sneaks in now and then without the public being aware.
 
This, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism

The contemporary political conception of progressivism in the culture of the Western world emerged out of the vast social changes brought about by industrialization in the Western world in the late 19th century, particularly out of the view that progress was being stifled by vast economic inequality between the rich and the poor, minimally regulated laissez-faire capitalism with out-of-control monopolistic corporations, intense and often violent conflict between workers and capitalists, and a need for measures to address these problems.
 
Fools like Bush, Cheney, Boehner, Trump, Palin, ..I could go on but I like our president, support him and believe he's on the right track, so ....name calling is a bit different from referencing wikipedia, progressives supported education and social equality on many levels. To some these may be foolish but I benefited from an Andrew Carnegie library outside a town of 3000 residents in the midwest in the 1950s. I'm glad juveniles are not tried as adults and the industrial age of Teddy Roosevelt has ended with the dawn of the technological age of Bill Clinton. Times have changed but needs have not.Socialized medical care in Taiwan saved my life and after 2 weeks in a hospital, my bill was the equivalent of 800 US dollars. I'm grateful it was there.
 

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