Public Employees Protesting WI Governor

[BrianFromWA]

In what way is the government worker's taxes being paid by other tax payers?

Let's continue to work with your "logic": How many Americans does it take to pay the salary of a $168,000/year general? And how many more tax payers does it require to pay the general's taxes? Why do we allow generals to leech off of American citizens?

One is in the Constitution. One is not. And Congress has to consent to promote and pay each and every single one of those Generals. I don't think that's the case with most other government workers.

 

[jlprk]

Now that government employees won't be allowed to negotiate and bargain as a unit, will their employers be allowed to have personnel departments?

Since nothing will be allowed as a group anymore, will companies have personnel policies anymore, or any general rules?

All negotiating and bargaining will now be done individually by one side, so shouldn't it be the same on the other side? Like, each boss will negotiate with the 4 or 5 people immediately under him, ignoring any company-wide pay scales.

Unions were invented to compensate for the advantages employers have.

 

[Minstrel]

One is in the Constitution. One is not. And Congress has to consent to promote and pay each and every single one of those Generals. I don't think that's the case with most other government workers.

So that's your answer to (Denny's) curiosity as to why generals are allowed to leech off American citizens?

Obviously, my point was that generals, like other government workers, pay into the system through taxes and happen to be the ones drawing a salary from the entire pool of taxation. It's patently silly to set this up as "tax payers funding government workers (including generals)" as though those government workers are outside the system, drawing money from it.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I'm saying that that's why generals are allowed to "leech off of us". I'm not saying I agree with Denny's premise. I, unlike many, help pay my own salary.

As it is, though, Congress could (if they or the people wanted to) cut military salaries by 50%, cut the number of generals by 90%, and take away health coverage. They don't, for whatever reason. However, the state of WI (until the new legislation) couldn't do any of those things without going through the Union, as I see it.

 

[Minstrel]

I'm saying that that's why generals are allowed to "leech off of us".

Yeah, I figured. Which is true, but other government employees are allowed to because they are employed within the parameters of the Constitution, by legally elected or appointed officials.

I, unlike many, help pay my own salary.

Exactly.

As it is, though, Congress could (if they or the people wanted to) cut military salaries by 50%, cut the number of generals by 90%, and take away health coverage. They don't, for whatever reason. However, the state of WI (until the new legislation) couldn't do any of those things without going through the Union, as I see it.

I wasn't arguing for or against public union collective bargaining. I'm not sure what my position is on that. Just responding to Denny's implication that government employees are essentially leeching off of American citizens, a group that Denny was none-too-subtly setting them apart from.

 

[Denny Crane]

In what way is the government worker's taxes being paid by other tax payers?

Let's continue to work with your "logic": How many Americans does it take to pay the salary of a $168,000/year general? And how many more tax payers does it require to pay the general's taxes? Why do we allow generals to leech off of American citizens?

The government has to tax 18 guys making $50K each 10% to generate $90K in revenue to pay the guy's salary. He makes $100K and pays 10% in taxes, so you have to tax 20 guys to pay his take home and his taxes. The government isn't really paying the guy $100K though, they're (equivalent of) paying him tax free and keeping the taxes of the other 2 guys.


There aren't that many generals, they're not unionized, it's mandated in the constitution that we have them, they're forbidden from speaking out on political matters, and so on.

Government employees are damned expensive, no matter how you look at it.

 

[Minstrel]

The government has to tax 18 guys making $50K each 10% to generate $90K in revenue to pay the guy's salary. He makes $100K and pays 10% in taxes, so you have to tax 20 guys to pay his take home and his taxes.

Except tax payers aren't paying his taxes. He's paying taxes toward his own salary. Because, as correctly noted before, this government employee is part of the same society that chose to create that job and contribute taxes to pay for someone to fill that job. Not some outsider simply pulling money out of the system.

Government and government employees cost money, definitely. Whether they are expensive (in other words, whether they are good value or not) is certainly a matter of opinion. And for society to decide, by what sort of government they build through their representatives.

 

[Denny Crane]

Except tax payers aren't paying his taxes. He's paying taxes toward his own salary. Because, as correctly noted before, this government employee is part of the same society that chose to create that job and contribute taxes to pay for someone to fill that job. Not some outsider simply pulling money out of the system.

Government and government employees cost money, definitely. Whether they are expensive (in other words, whether they are good value or not) is certainly a matter of opinion. And for society to decide, by what sort of government they build through their representatives.

He's not part of the same society as you claim.

In the private sector, the companies paying those $50K employees are making $100K to $150K, each, in revenues. The government has almost never turned a profit.

 

[barfo]

He's not part of the same society as you claim.

In the private sector, the companies paying those $50K employees are making $100K to $150K, each, in revenues. The government has almost never turned a profit.

Not only that. Government starts with a "G" whereas Private Sector starts with a "P".

barfo

 

[Minstrel]

He's not part of the same society as you claim.

In the private sector, the companies paying those $50K employees are making $100K to $150K, each, in revenues. The government has almost never turned a profit.

I see what you mean. Similarly, men urinate standing up, while women urinate sitting down, so clearly they do not share the same society.

 

[Denny Crane]

I see what you mean. Similarly, men urinate standing up, while women urinate sitting down, so clearly they do not share the same society.

It costs taxpayers to hire govt. employees, it costs $0 in taxes to hire a private sector employee.

 

[barfo]

It costs taxpayers to hire govt. employees, it costs $0 in taxes to hire a private sector employee.

Wow, let me get this straight. Are you saying that government employees are employed by the government, whereas private sector employees are not employed by the government? That's amazing if true! I wonder why no one ever realized that before.

barfo

 

[maxiep]

Do you have an MA in teaching? Have you taught extensively? In my experience it is much harder than it looks. There is a ton of pedagogy that you need to learn.

No, I have four friends with that particular degree. They all agree on two things: it was a waste of time and much easier than their undergraduate degrees.

My question goes to effectiveness. We've decided that these teacher need graduate degrees in Education, but has it translated to better test scores? No. What about throwing more money at the problem? We spend huge amounts of money at schools and test scores are stagnant. Perhaps the problems we face in education can't be solved by money or an MAT.

I say we try something different. Teach for America seems to have a good plan.

 

[barfo]

My question goes to effectiveness. We've decided that these teacher need graduate degrees in Education, but has it translated to better test scores? No. What about throwing more money at the problem? We spend huge amounts of money at schools and test scores are stagnant. Perhaps the problems we face in education can't be solved by money or an MAT.

Or perhaps test scores aren't the right thing to be measuring.

barfo

 

[Minstrel]

It costs taxpayers to hire govt. employees, it costs $0 in taxes to hire a private sector employee.

And those taxpayer costs are decided on by society, via their representatives, and paid for by society. That society (who both decides and pays) includes government employees.

I'm glad we finally came together on this, as two members of the same society.

 

[Denny Crane]

And those taxpayer costs are decided on by society, via their representatives, and paid for by society. That society (who both decides and pays) includes government employees.

I'm glad we finally came together on this, as two members of the same society.

You know, there's a line on the tax form that lets you pay more than what you owe. If you love government so much, go for it.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

No, I have four friends with that particular degree. They all agree on two things: it was a waste of time and much easier than their undergraduate degrees.

My wife is a teacher and in Washington teachers have to obtain an MA to continue to teach. It didn't improve her teaching and left us $45,000 in debt. Now, it's about $1,200 per year in CE. That's more effective than the Masters degree program.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Or perhaps test scores aren't the right thing to be measuring.

barfo

My wife suggested measuring what the kids learned during the year as opposed to measuring one class's scores against another class in a different school.... If the kids aren't getting any smarter, then the teacher probably isn't teaching.

 

[Minstrel]

You know, there's a line on the tax form that lets you pay more than what you owe. If you love government so much, go for it.

I'm willing to be part of a society that collectively decides what government should and shouldn't do, and pay my legally determined share of those costs. If you don't want to be part of such a society, I'm sure there are others you could move to.

tl;dr: Love it or leave it.

 

[barfo]

My wife suggested measuring what the kids learned during the year as opposed to measuring one class's scores against another class in a different school.... If the kids aren't getting any smarter, then the teacher probably isn't teaching.

A very sensible idea.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm willing to be part of a society that collectively decides what government should and shouldn't do, and pay my legally determined share of those costs. If you don't want to be part of such a society, I'm sure there are others you could move to.

tl;dr: Love it or leave it.

That's not the way it works, though. It's devolved to us giving elected people a blank check for whatever they want, and we foot the bill. And what they want is what lobbyists want.

 

[Paxil]

He's not part of the same society as you claim.

In the private sector, the companies paying those $50K employees are making $100K to $150K, each, in revenues. The government has almost never turned a profit.

So you want a society where no services are provided unless they turn a profit?

Rich people don't give a shit about public education because their kids go to private schools.

 

[Denny Crane]

So you want a society where no services are provided unless they turn a profit?

Rich people don't give a shit about public education because their kids go to private schools.

Seems like we're spending $10,000 a student and not getting very good results with the society we have. Spending $2.5T on just the federal government isn't enough, they have to spend $4T and we're still not getting a whole lot of value for it.

We've had many great leaders arise from poverty to that greatness without public schools.

Does every govt. program have to decline to uselessness unless we throw ever increasing amounts of money at it? And then throw more new govt. programs on top of those?

 

[barfo]

Seems like we're spending $10,000 a student and not getting very good results with the society we have.

What we need is better children.

We've had many great leaders arise from poverty to that greatness without public schools.

What year was the last time that happened?

Does every govt. program have to decline to uselessness unless we throw ever increasing amounts of money at it?

Yes, unless people stop making more babies.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

What we need is better children.

FAIL

What year was the last time that happened?

Not exactly the right question. But Obama would be one, no? He attended private schools from 1971 on, and attended Occidental College, Columbia, and Harvard. Where was he before 1971? Indonesia - they must have great public schools.

Yes, unless people stop making more babies.

barfo

So you admit it's doomed to failure. That's a start.

 

[jlprk]

Back to the thread title--since Gov. Walker will soon be recalled--along with enough legislators to bring down the small Republican majority in power in his state for less than 2 months now--he is a dead man walking.

Get it? Dead Man Walking Walker.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2058601,00.html?xid=fblike

 

[maxiep]

What happened to those that stood so bravely against "violent rhetoric"? Of course, it only applies to those not on the left.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lee-stranahan/shame-ignoring-death-thre_b_835805.html

These unions are little different than those portrayed in "On The Waterfront".

 

[bluefrog]

What happened to those that stood so bravely against "violent rhetoric"? Of course, it only applies to those not on the left.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lee-stranahan/shame-ignoring-death-thre_b_835805.html

These unions are little different than those portrayed in "On The Waterfront".

I said these threats need to be denounced a week ago. LINK

(I think this is the only time you actually linked to the huffingtonpost)

 

[maxiep]

http://althouse.blogspot.com/2011/03/union-thuggery-against-althouse-and.html

 

[maxiep]

I said these threats need to be denounced a week ago. LINK

(I think this is the only time you actually linked to the huffingtonpost)

Bully for you, but I want those that tried to blame the Tea Party for Gabrielle Giffords denounce this kind of shit.