Public Employees Protesting WI Governor

[PapaG]

Are you paid by the hour?

Many salaried employees in the private sector work outside of the "normal" working hours. To suggest that teachers are the only ones that do so is ridiculous.

I once had a salary job where I was quite literally always "working". It became too much for me, although the money was very nice.

I respect what teachers do; I just don't think it is so special that they should be set for life without any skin in the game. Taking a tiny pay cut now to preserve their own retirement seems like a reasonable request, doesn't it?

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I once had a salary job where I was quite literally always "working". It became too much for me, although the money was very nice.

I respect what teachers do; I just don't think it is so special that they should be set for life without any skin in the game.

Teachers make a decent living. Especially when you figure job security, benefits and the general nature of the job.

 

[Sug]

I don't appreciate teachers like you being unwilling to renegotiate your exhorbitant pensions to try and keep some of your students who have parents in the private sector from losing their homes.

In the real world, people don't "earn" their retirement by service, they contribute to it with their own money. People like you are bankrupting states, and if somebody even suggests a tiny bit of sacrifice from you and your union, we get what is happening right now in Wisconsin.

Since I'm paying for your salary and your retirement, perhaps you should stop posting lengthy posts whining about how bad you have it, and instead come up with a lesson plan tonight that actually educates kids. All around the country, your bosses (yes, I am your boss, since without my money, you don't make a cent) are waking up to the scam your unions are running. Now that people in the private sector are starting to struggle, or have struggled for an extended period of time, the obvious questions on why you public leeches shouldn't also sacrifice are starting to bubble to the surface.

Have a great day.

Well my PERs is higher than yours, so clearly I am better. Checkmate.

 

[Ed O]

I appreciate teachers, but I don't think that they will ever have to be paid their "actual" worth.

Why not? Because many people WANT to teach. They receive utility from helping people and watching kids blossom, and they are not alone.

Compare that to, say, steel workers. Steel workers are working in environments that most people wouldn't put up with for any reasonable sum of money... because we are afraid of heights.

It's a supply and demand thing to me, and teachers are at a natural disadvantage... but to society's benefit.

Ed O.

 

[PapaG]

Well my PERs is higher than yours, so clearly I am better. Checkmate.

I don't have PERs. I provide my own retirement, and since I have my own business, I don't rely on anybody else to pay it for me. My wife does have a 401k through her work, which is a 50/50 set up. Again, though, no taxpayers are helping out that fund.

How does it feel to have people like me as your boss?

I do understand the "promise" point you made, but the fact is in most teacher unions, it is impossible to fire a teacher, and the private sector economy has no impact on any "promise" made in the past by Democrats who gladly accepted union money. Er, private money that was laundered through the union. Sorry about that mistake!

 

[Sug]

I don't have PERs. I provide my own retirement, and since I have my own business, I don't rely on anybody else to pay it for me. My wife does have a 401k through her work, which is a 50/50 set up. Again, though, no taxpayers are helping out that fund.

How does it feel to have people like me as your boss?

I do understand the "promise" point you made, but the fact is in most teacher unions, it is impossible to fire a teacher, and the private sector economy has no impact on any "promise" made in the past by Democrats who gladly accepted union money. Er, private money that was laundered through the union. Sorry about that mistake!

You are being dense on the PER issue.

People like you are not my boss btw, just like the people that spend money at your business are not your boss. You are my revenue stream which is much different. So thanks for your hard earned cash, I am writing this message on a computer that you funded.

Thanks for the money honey! How does it feel know that you are paying for my life and the future of my family? BTW there is no way for you to stop paying me either, again not my boss hehe but my revenue stream.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

You are being dense on the PER issue.

People like you are not my boss btw, just like the people that spend money at your business are not your boss. You are my revenue stream which is much different. So thanks for your hard earned cash, I am writing this message on a computer that you funded.

Thanks for the money honey! How does it feel know that you are paying for my life and the future of my family? BTW there is no way for you to stop paying me either, again not my boss hehe but my revenue stream.

careful, you might be reported to the internet police. this iz serius biz!

 

[PapaG]

You are being dense on the PER issue.

People like you are not my boss btw, just like the people that spend money at your business are not your boss. You are my revenue stream which is much different. So thanks for your hard earned cash, I am writing this message on a computer that you funded.

Thanks for the money honey! How does it feel know that you are paying for my life and the future of my family? BTW there is no way for you to stop paying me either, again not my boss hehe but my revenue stream.

It's part of living this society. I have to pay for some ungrateful morons to babysit kids during the day. Not all teachers are like that, probably hardly any of them, but I think I know what camp you're in based on your sob story and your lack of any basic economic understanding.

I'm long past being upset about it. Enjoy your life, and in a few years when the state doesn't have the money to pay for you, good luck in the future! I mean, you're sitting in a classroom posting on this board as soon as your students leave the room. Tells me a lot about you, doesn't it?

 

[Sug]

careful, you might be reported to the internet police. this iz serius biz!

Well they work for me because they are public employees, I will just tell them to look the other way.

 

[Sug]

It's part of living this society. I have to pay for some ungrateful morons to babysit kids during the day. Not all teachers are like that, probably hardly any of them, but I think I know what camp you're in based on your sob story and your lack of any basic economic understanding.

I'm long past being upset about it. Enjoy your life, and in a few years when the state doesn't have the money to pay for you, good luck in the future! I mean, you're sitting in a classroom posting on this board as soon as your students leave the room. Tells me a lot about you, doesn't it?

Well thanks again, and btw I was already at home on my personal computer that I bought with your money when I made that post. Paparevenue I love you buddy, you blow a gasket daily on this board about things that you really don't understand. I hope you find peace in your life, because at the end of the day life is too short to worry about money.

 

[PapaG]

Well thanks again, and btw I was already at home on my personal computer that I bought with your money when I made that post. Paparevenue I love you buddy, you blow a gasket daily on this board about things that you really don't understand. I hope you find peace in your life, because at the end of the day life is too short to worry about money.

Why would you have to worry about money? You have your own guaranteed revenue stream. Kind of like a parasite.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

My wife was a teacher before turning to writing supplemental educational material a few years ago. A few thoughts:

Yes, teachers get a lot of time off and that makes their pay seem large. However, during the school year I'd say she averaged 60 hours per week. Lesson plans, grading, writing tests, setting up the classroom (more work than you might think), meetings, meeting with parents and/or dealing with unruly kids, writing and maintaining IEP files, writing her own curriculum (there are no perfect curriculum and teachers have to alter it or supplement it) and many other tasks aside from teaching. They have mostly lost teacher aides, lost their break times, free periods used for making copies and other administrative tasks, dealing with students who have English as their second language, ADHD students, abused students.... the list goes on and on. There is more stress than you might imagine.

Add to that a teaching credential lasts for 3-4 years. After the initial one, a teacher in most states has to obtain 1/2 of a Masters degree to get the second and the other half for the third. That's over $40,000 out of our pockets. Now that she has her credential (she needs it to keep writing), she has to pay for CE credits to renew her credential at a cost of $6,000. Aside from that she averages about $1,000 per year out of pocket for things not otherwise covered or reimbursed for the classroom. She's had her teaching credential for 14 years and we have paid almost $60,000 out of pocket for the privilege. That's over $4,000 per year. Not many other jobs require that kind of a payout.

Now, all that said, I do have to agree the retirement package is just plain sick. And most teachers can retire with a minimum of 100% pay, generous pay increase each year and 100% free and full medical benefits and can get those at age 55.

So while something may be need to be done about the retirement package, don't sell teachers short on how hard they work and how much they have to spend to keep teaching.

 

[PapaG]

My wife was a teacher before turning to writing supplemental educational material a few years ago. A few thoughts:

Yes, teachers get a lot of time off and that makes their pay seem large. However, during the school year I'd say she averaged 60 hours per week. Lesson plans, grading, writing tests, setting up the classroom (more work than you might think), meetings, meeting with parents and/or dealing with unruly kids, writing and maintaining IEP files, writing her own curriculum (there are no perfect curriculum and teachers have to alter it or supplement it) and many other tasks aside from teaching. They have mostly lost teacher aides, lost their break times, free periods used for making copies and other administrative tasks, dealing with students who have English as their second language, ADHD students, abused students.... the list goes on and on. There is more stress than you might imagine.

Add to that a teaching credential lasts for 3-4 years. After the initial one, a teacher in most states has to obtain 1/2 of a Masters degree to get the second and the other half for the third. That's over $40,000 out of our pockets. Now that she has her credential (she needs it to keep writing), she has to pay for CE credits to renew her credential at a cost of $6,000. Aside from that she averages about $1,000 per year out of pocket for things not otherwise covered or reimbursed for the classroom. She's had her teaching credential for 14 years and we have paid almost $60,000 out of pocket for the privilege. That's over $4,000 per year. Not many other jobs require that kind of a payout.

Now, all that said, I do have to agree the retirement package is just plain sick. And most teachers can retire with a minimum of 100% pay, generous pay increase each year and 100% free and full medical benefits and can get those at age 55.

So while something may be need to be done about the retirement package, don't sell teachers short on how hard they work and how much they have to spend to keep teaching.

I haven't done that once in this thread, other than to Sug personally, and that's because he seems to personify the stereotypical liberal freeloading teacher.

The teacher unions, and those teachers who protest any concessions at all to help out those in the private sector, are spearheading this Wisconsin debacle, along with Obama's Organizing for America, which is literally bussing people into Madison. I guess I don't see why asking people with guaranteed jobs and pensions to actually contribute a bit of "their" money to that pension as being such a bad idea. Especially, if in some small way, it helps keep one of their students from having their family lose their home once the state's credit card is finally invalid.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

I haven't done that once in this thread, other than to Sug personally, and that's because he seems to personify the stereotypical liberal freeloading teacher.

The teacher unions, and those teachers who protest any concessions at all to help out those in the private sector, are spearheading this Wisconsin debacle, along with Obama's Organizing for America, which is literally bussing people into Madison. I guess I don't see why asking people with guaranteed jobs and pensions to actually contribute a bit of "their" money to that pension as being such a bad idea. Especially, if in some small way, it helps keep one of their students from having their family lose their home once the state's credit card is finally invalid.

Clearly, my post was not aimed at you, and I think you know that. If not, well, there's not much hope left for you.

My point was that there seemed to be some teacher bashing in general and I just wanted to make a point that it's not entirely justified. One of the reasons teachers have good benefits is that they are required to pay a lot out of their pockets to keep teaching. It's a give and take.

And I also pointed out that it seems fair to me to make adjustments in their retirement plans (for the most part) as many states are over generous when they were negotiated.

 

[PapaG]

Clearly, my post was not aimed at you, and I think you know that. If not, well, there's not much hope left for you.

My point was that there seemed to be some teacher bashing in general and I just wanted to make a point that it's not entirely justified. One of the reasons teachers have good benefits is that they are required to pay a lot out of their pockets to keep teaching. It's a give and take.

And I also pointed out that it seems fair to me to make adjustments in their retirement plans (for the most part) as many states are over generous when they were negotiated.

One can never tell. Is there still hope left for me? We seem to agree, and I value and respect what your wife did for a living.

We might see the same scenario play out here in 2013, because the GOP will become the majority in Salem, and Kitz isn't exactly reliable to any lobbying group, even if he helped set up PERs.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

One can never tell. Is there still hope left for me? We seem to agree, and I value and respect what your wife did for a living.

We might see the same scenario play out here in 2013, because the GOP will become the majority in Salem, and Kitz isn't exactly reliable to any lobbying group, even if he helped set up PERs.

Do you really think the GOP will gain majority in both houses? And if so, do you further think Kitzy would let them make fundamental changes in the collective bargaining agreement? That would be one whale of a fight. The teachers union is probably the strongest lobby in the state.

 

[PapaG]

A few signs from today's "protest".

 

[maxiep]

I am a teacher, I work hard and I didn't negotiate my contract or pay. My pay is on a set scale and determined by the amount of education I have and my years of service. I applied for a job and got it, and attached to that job were certain promises. I worked in the "private" sector for several years before teaching, and the same thing was the case. I applied for jobs and got them, and attached to those jobs were certain promises. In either situation if those promises were not kept I am sure that I would be angry. Regardless if you are a public or "private" sector employee, I think you should feel secure in what you have been promised. That is why you have a contract, so that both sides honor it. My PERS situation can change, but as it stands now I pay in and my district matches. That is the same situation I had at every private sector job. Just like the private sector jobs, I am earning my retirement benefits based on years of service and how much I contribute.

I am not sure where I have leeched, taken advantage, or stolen from anyone. I work an honest days work, and live up to my professional responsibilities. I don't break the law, I am a upstanding member of my community, and I serve the government of my state and country. I work with other peoples children to make them better individuals, and often find that several adults have not done a very good job of parenting. I have broken up fights, stayed late to make sure kids had transportation, counseled students living in terrible situations, and done my best to demonstrate compassion and humanity. Then I come read statements like many made in this thread and I am disgusted at the ugliness of some people and their views of what my profession. The hatred some have for the government in this country is simply unhealthy, and as a result it turns into politics rather than government. I don't appreciate the insults from some of you posting in this thread, I am an honest person working hard to take care of my family.

What if we can't afford you? It doesn't matter if you're a good teacher or a bad one.

 

[maxiep]

You are being dense on the PER issue.

People like you are not my boss btw, just like the people that spend money at your business are not your boss. You are my revenue stream which is much different. So thanks for your hard earned cash, I am writing this message on a computer that you funded.

Thanks for the money honey! How does it feel know that you are paying for my life and the future of my family? BTW there is no way for you to stop paying me either, again not my boss hehe but my revenue stream.

This is where we differ. In my mind, my customers are my bosses. Without them, I don't have a job.

 

[PapaG]

This is where we differ. In my mind, my customers are my bosses. Without them, I don't have a job.

Yeah, I think the same thing, but Sug seems like a lost cause.

I wonder what type of crap he is feeding his students on a daily basis? This is what I'm paying for, but as I said, it's basically him babysitting, and it's up to the parents to talk sense into their kids after listening to crap like this all day.

 

[maxiep]

Yeah, I think the same thing, but Sug seems like a lost cause.

I wonder what type of crap he is feeding his students on a daily basis? This is what I'm paying for, but as I said, it's basically him babysitting, and it's up to the parents to talk sense into their kids after listening to crap like this all day.

My son is not yet three, but already I've crafted an education plan with the help of some friends of mine. My son's education is my responsibility. Period. I would hate to be my son's teacher in future years; I plan on auditing and micromanaging them. I won't allow my son to be limited by the low expectations of their teacher. I had a couple of wonderful teachers and several really shitty ones. The shitty ones my son encounters will be called out.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I am a teacher, I work hard and I didn't negotiate my contract or pay. My pay is on a set scale and determined by the amount of education I have and my years of service. I applied for a job and got it, and attached to that job were certain promises. I worked in the "private" sector for several years before teaching, and the same thing was the case. I applied for jobs and got them, and attached to those jobs were certain promises. In either situation if those promises were not kept I am sure that I would be angry. Regardless if you are a public or "private" sector employee, I think you should feel secure in what you have been promised. That is why you have a contract, so that both sides honor it. My PERS situation can change, but as it stands now I pay in and my district matches. That is the same situation I had at every private sector job. Just like the private sector jobs, I am earning my retirement benefits based on years of service and how much I contribute.

Please help me out here, b/c I don't know teacher contracts at all. Is your contract (and the "promises" associated with it) something that's negotiated yearly? Or is it somehow set for as long as you have the job? What were some of the promises?

I mean, the military has a bunch of "promises" too, so I kind of get that (health care, set pay scale, etc.). But if you don't perform well you don't get promoted, and if you don't get promoted after being eligible twice you go home. And you only get retirement if you make it to 20 years.

In the union job I was in I was told that I was going to be laid off b/c I was junior (only at the company for 4 years). The union had received many "promises" and concessions, but that didn't help me when the company informed the union it was laying off workers b/c of lack of work and the junior guys were the ones to go.

Are your teacher contracts for a guaranteed length? Can your employer not fire you at any time they want to?

 

[BrianFromWA]

My son is not yet three, but already I've crafted an education plan with the help of some friends of mine. My son's education is my responsibility. Period. I would hate to be my son's teacher in future years; I plan on auditing and micromanaging them. I won't allow my son to be limited by the low expectations of their teacher. I had a couple of wonderful teachers and several really shitty ones. The shitty ones my son encounters will be called out.

I'd be interested in seeing that. With an 11-month old (and another on the way) I'm able to do some financial planning, but I frankly don't know what I should be looking for. Some friends are great homeschool teachers, but I don't know that I'd want that. It seems as if half of WA can't pass the WASL test, so I'm not sure I trust the "good teacher to bad teacher" ratio, and I don't know how much I can say "be like me". Especially if she/they have inherited my wife's artistic nature.

 

[maxiep]

I'd be interested in seeing that. With an 11-month old (and another on the way) I'm able to do some financial planning, but I frankly don't know what I should be looking for. Some friends are great homeschool teachers, but I don't know that I'd want that. It seems as if half of WA can't pass the WASL test, so I'm not sure I trust the "good teacher to bad teacher" ratio, and I don't know how much I can say "be like me". Especially if she/they have inherited my wife's artistic nature.

We're not going to home school; I believe in the social aspect of public education. Of course, whether we're in Denver or Portland, we'll be in the best possible school district. My concern is that public schools operate only as fast as the slowest student. As such, it's pace which has me the most worried. Our program is heavier on mathematics, grammar, foreign language, civics and music than are most public schools. I'm interested in developing pattern recognition early then lateral thinking later.

I'll just say there's no reason to re-create the wheel: Mortimer Adler had it right.

 

[maxiep]

There's a great point in this article: http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/02/028392.php

What the Democrats don't like isn't dictatorship, it is democracy. That is why the Democrats in the Wisconsin Senate fled the state en masse--they prevented a quorum, so that a vote they were going to lose couldn't take place. Once again, it is democracy they are trying to frustrate, not dictatorship.

Read the whole thing.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

My son is not yet three, but already I've crafted an education plan with the help of some friends of mine. My son's education is my responsibility. Period. I would hate to be my son's teacher in future years; I plan on auditing and micromanaging them. I won't allow my son to be limited by the low expectations of their teacher. I had a couple of wonderful teachers and several really shitty ones. The shitty ones my son encounters will be called out.

One problem with public schools today is that the class generally moves at the pace of the slowest students. Kids who don't fully understand english, have ADHD, come from dysfunctional backgrounds. Now this is mostly in the elementary grades. But aside from that, teachers teach more to the tests than a fully rounded education as they are essentially judged by how kids do on them. It's a tough challenge now to get a quality education.

 

[mook]

One problem with public schools today is that the class generally moves at the pace of the slowest students. Kids who don't fully understand english, have ADHD, come from dysfunctional backgrounds. Now this is mostly in the elementary grades. But aside from that, teachers teach more to the tests than a fully rounded education as they are essentially judged by how kids do on them. It's a tough challenge now to get a quality education.

I think that's a great description of the "No Child Left Behind" ethos. Even the very term reeks of measuring everything by the achievements of the worst in the class. It conjures up images of a battlefield retreat, where a Marine grimaces and then runs back for some fatally wounded grunt because we just don't leave anyone behind, even in a desperate evacuation.

I sometimes wonder what it might have looked like if they'd gone in with an "Every Child Propelled Ahead" mindset.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

I sometimes wonder what it might have looked like if they'd gone in with an "Every Child Propelled Ahead" mindset.

Interesting thought.

I take it to think you are saying we go out of our way in public schools to deter failure, and fail to promote achievement.

Here's a thought- in the elementary grades children must learn the proper foundation of learning. Both learning fundamentals of the subject matter as well as how to learn in and of itself. To that end, no child can be left behind as it may create stumbling blocks they can never overcome when it comes to the act of learning later on. Then, in secondary education the child is given the opportunity to achieve as they can thru charter schools, and many other advanced honors programs... But it's those foundational building blocks from elementary school that creates, to a certain degree, the raw ability to learn as they get older.

 

[PapaG]

One problem with public schools today is that the class generally moves at the pace of the slowest students. Kids who don't fully understand english, have ADHD, come from dysfunctional backgrounds. Now this is mostly in the elementary grades. But aside from that, teachers teach more to the tests than a fully rounded education as they are essentially judged by how kids do on them. It's a tough challenge now to get a quality education.

My 2nd-grader is in advanced reading with 3rd graders, and will enter the TAG program next year. For the rest of the day, she is bored to the point of zoning out her teacher. My wife and I are putting her in a charter school next year for advanced kids. My kindergartener is a more 'normal' student (for lack of a better word), and she loves going to school every day.

 

[Ed O]

Today's developments are pathetic.

Ed O.