Public Employees Protesting WI Governor

[maxiep]

Walter Russell Mead weighs in. Are you an optimist or a pessimist?

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2011/02/22/race-to-the-bottom/

 

[maxiep]

Well, I don't have any special wisdom on this topic. My gut always told me to way overpay the teachers and eliminate/underpay admin positions whenever possible. But this Kopp lady says the research doesn't in anyway support my gut.

She comes with the same mindset I approach most things:
1. Ignore your gut instincts
2. Benchmark performers within the system, and also the system itself against other systems in other countries/markets/etc
3. Establish which ones perform the highest at whatever goal you want to achieve
4. Use those high performers as models to improve the overall system

It's a great business strategy and a great personal growth strategy. And it's the same strategy I'd apply to health care, immigration, and pretty much every other public policy.

She seems to say you start by attracting the highest quality administrators (principals, etc) to the schools, empower them, put up some basic metrics (which we have thanks to No Child Left Behind), and get out of their way. That's what's been proven to work. I'm for that.

Say, Mook, but that sounds like a good ol' fashioned private sector business. Hire great management and they'll find the people to make their vision succeed.

 

[BrianFromWA]

for me, the most fascinating part was the "benchmarks" and "metrics" part. I'm a program manager myself, and look at those pretty steadily.

The question for me becomes, how do you benchmark it? Do you go lowest common denominator (teaching until the last child "gets it") or do you teach to challenge the superstars, and have kids repeat grades if required? Should teachers be penalized for having students fail, or awarded for having high achievers? Should the students factor into the teacher's grade at all? Should salary be tied to the students' ability to pass standardized tests? Should there BE standardized tests?

I'm of the opinion that many children in grammar school are talented, eager to learn and totally unchallenged. I was one of the lucky ones who went to a school for a couple of years where high achievers were noted and challenged separately. I didn't go to math class in 3rd grade. I was sent to a TAG class with kids of various grades to work team problems and more challenging coursework. My sister-in-law tries to teach 1st graders who have truancy rates of almost 30% (she works in a low-income district and sometimes her kids just don't show up)...it's tough to have everyone ready to read when you have to slow down to make sure a child who's out that often isn't left behind.

 

[barfo]

Say, Mook, but that sounds like a good ol' fashioned private sector business. Hire great management and they'll find the people to make their vision succeed.

Now let's compare the salaries of private sector management with public sector management. Hmm, I wonder why we aren't getting great managers in school administration.

barfo

 

[PapaG]

Now let's compare the salaries of private sector management with public sector management. Hmm, I wonder why we aren't getting great managers in school administration.

barfo

Compare it. The only decent part of being in private sector management, in my experience, was that I received a greater contribution from the company into my 401k. I actually made less money in management than my best sales reps made in a year.

Part of the reason I now work for myself.

Anyhow, I'd like to see your stats. Let's compare a principal with 20 teachers under him to a sales manager with 20 reps. Benefits/pension/longetivity in position included, please.

 

[barfo]

Compare it. The only decent part of being in private sector management, in my experience, was that I received a greater contribution from the company into my 401k. I actually made less money in management than my best sales reps made in a year.

That's typical, good sales reps usually make lots of money.

Anyhow, I'd like to see your stats. Let's compare a principal with 20 teachers under him to a sales manager with 20 reps. Benefits/pension/longetivity in position included, please.

Why would a sales manager be the appropriate comparison???

Let's compare school leadership to CEO's of similar sized organizations.

barfo

 

[maxiep]

Now let's compare the salaries of private sector management with public sector management. Hmm, I wonder why we aren't getting great managers in school administration.

barfo

Because all the money is going to the underlings. Next.

 

[barfo]

Example: Portland public schools. Budget of $637 million, 6800 employees, superintendent makes $190K. Show me a top job of similar scale in the private sector that pays that little.

barfo

 

[barfo]

Because all the money is going to the underlings. Next.

Not actually even close to true, but good story, bro.

barfo

 

[maxiep]

Not actually even close to true, but good story, bro.

barfo

Really? How much does the average teacher make vs. the average clerical worker? What about their benefits?

 

[BrianFromWA]

Example: Portland public schools. Budget of $637 million, 6800 employees, superintendent makes $190K. Show me a top job of similar scale in the private sector that pays that little.

barfo

I think I agree with you in principle, barfo, but program managers at major defense contractors with a program $ scale 10x that make similar. We're not talking CEO of BP salary or anything.

 

[barfo]

Really? How much does the average teacher make vs. the average clerical worker? What about their benefits?

How much does the average brain surgeon make compared to the average prison inmate?

Looks like brain surgeons are overpaid.

barfo

 

[maxiep]

How much does the average brain surgeon make compared to the average prison inmate?

Looks like brain surgeons are overpaid.

barfo

Really? That's your response? I'm reminded again why trying to have a discussion with you is a waste of time.

 

[barfo]

I think I agree with you in principle, barfo, but program managers at major defense contractors with a program $ scale 10x that make similar. We're not talking CEO of BP salary or anything.

Sucks to be a program manager, I guess?
But maybe there is a difference between being the top dog and not? Is the program manager a leader who drives the entire organization? Cause I think that was the qualification that mook was looking for.

barfo

 

[maxiep]

Getting the discussion back on track from that silly diversion: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...0771346082498.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEFTSecond

Do the Democrats really want to not participate in this debate? 80% of life is showing up.

 

[barfo]

Really? That's your response? I'm reminded again why trying to have a discussion with you is a waste of time.

Likewise, I'm sure. You want to compare clerical workers to teachers, I was pointing out what a stupid comparison that was. Sorry you didn't like that.

barfo

 

[maxiep]

Yawn. Back to Wisconsin. The Republicans are now about to have a vote on showing your ID when you vote

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116680594.html

Seriously? Why is this objectionable? Why shouldn't you have to do this in the first place?

 

[BrianFromWA]

Sucks to be a program manager, I guess?
But maybe there is a difference between being the top dog and not? Is the program manager a leader who drives the entire organization? Cause I think that was the qualification that mook was looking for.

barfo

Yes, the program manager for, say, 787 or F-35 or Virginia-class submarines drives the organization a lot more than the head of Portland Public Schools. With the added potential of being fired for poor performance of his program and responsible for profitability of the program.

I don't know where the "sucks to be a program manager" comes from. You asked for a private example, I gave you one.

 

[Denny Crane]

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/two-thirds-wisconsin-public-school-8th-g

Two-Thirds of Wisconsin Public-School 8th Graders Can’t Read Proficiently—Despite Highest Per Pupil Spending in Midwest

(CNSNews.com) - Two-thirds of the eighth graders in Wisconsin public schools cannot read proficiently according to the U.S. Department of Education, despite the fact that Wisconsin spends more per pupil in its public schools than any other state in the Midwest.

In the National Assessment of Educational Progress tests administered by the U.S. Department of Education in 2009—the latest year available—only 32 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned a “proficient” rating while another 2 percent earned an “advanced” rating. The other 66 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned ratings below “proficient,” including 44 percent who earned a rating of “basic” and 22 percent who earned a rating of “below basic.”

 

[maxiep]

For some reason, there's an entire part of the political spectrum that seems to think the answer is always to throw more money at a problem.

 

[maxiep]

http://theweek.com/bullpen/column/212386/the-real-threat-to-democracy-in-wisconsin

 

[mook]

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/two-thirds-wisconsin-public-school-8th-g

Two-Thirds of Wisconsin Public-School 8th Graders Can’t Read Proficiently—Despite Highest Per Pupil Spending in Midwest

(CNSNews.com) - Two-thirds of the eighth graders in Wisconsin public schools cannot read proficiently according to the U.S. Department of Education, despite the fact that Wisconsin spends more per pupil in its public schools than any other state in the Midwest.

In the National Assessment of Educational Progress tests administered by the U.S. Department of Education in 2009—the latest year available—only 32 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned a “proficient” rating while another 2 percent earned an “advanced” rating. The other 66 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned ratings below “proficient,” including 44 percent who earned a rating of “basic” and 22 percent who earned a rating of “below basic.”

See, you quoting this is exactly the kind of shallow, gut-instinct thinking I'm talking about. You just had to read a few paragraphs down into that very same article to get into the actual benchmarking that I'm talking about, and suddenly it starts sounding like Wisconsin is actually performing pretty typical among its neighbors and better than the majority of the country in its education system. But you didn't do that, because the benchmarking didn't fit in with your storyline. But I'll do it for you:

Of these nearby states, only Minnesota did slightly better teaching reading to its public school students. In 2009, 39 percent of eighth graders in Minnesota public schools earned a rating of “proficient” or better in reading, and the average eighth grade reading score in the state was 270 out of 500.
In Illinois, only 32 percent of eighth graders earned a rating of “proficient” or better in reading, and the average eighth grade reading score was 265 out of 500. In Iowa, only 32 percent of eighth graders earned a rating of “proficient” or better in reading, and the average reading score was 265 out of 500. In Nebraska, only 35 percent of eighth graders earned a rating of “proficient” or better in their public schools, and the average reading score was 267 out of 500.
Nationwide, only 30 percent of public school eighth graders earned a rating of “proficient” or better in reading, and the average reading score on the NAEP test was 262 out of 500.

Even here, though, I find this article depressingly limited. A really productive analysis doesn't just measure one mediocre state (Wisconsin) against other mediocre states (Minnesota, Illinois, Iowa). What does Massachuselts spend on their teachers vs reading proficiency? They have some of the most literate kids in the country, so it's worth knowing. What does Arkansas?

 

[barfo]

Yes, the program manager for, say, 787 or F-35 or Virginia-class submarines drives the organization a lot more than the head of Portland Public Schools. With the added potential of being fired for poor performance of his program and responsible for profitability of the program.

Ok, that's very interesting.

I don't know where the "sucks to be a program manager" comes from. You asked for a private example, I gave you one.

And I appreciate it. The 'sucks to be a program manager' just meant, that's a lot of responsibility for not much pay.

barfo

 

[MrJayremmie]

Do the Democrats really want to not participate in this debate? 80% of life is showing up.

When you find out, let me know why the Repubs didn't let legislation even get debated in the last congress. It seems not allowing debate is a strategy.

 

[maxiep]

When you find out, let me know why the Repubs didn't let legislation even get debated in the last congress. It seems not allowing debate is a strategy.

Which Congress? Which bills? The GOP didn't control the US House, the US Senate nor the Wisconsin State Senate in the last legislative session.

 

[PapaG]

When you find out, let me know why the Repubs didn't let legislation even get debated in the last congress. It seems not allowing debate is a strategy.

Because the US Senate has a filibuster bill, and the GOP voted against cloture, as per Senate rules.

The better question is why did the dems have to bribe Ben Nelson and Mary Landrieu with hundres of millions of dollars in order to get them to vote for cloture on ObamaCare?

 

[MrJayremmie]

Which Congress? Which bills? The GOP didn't control the US House, the US Senate nor the Wisconsin State Senate in the last legislative session.

Don't play dumb. You know very well how many record breaking times the Republicans didn't allow legislation to be debated on the Senate floor in the last Congress (08 - 10).

Its strategy.

Its funny to see how up in arms Republicans are at how Democrats are protesting this bill, and the political moves the Democrats are making to not let this bill pass. Sounds extremely familiar. Seems like this happened recently.

Same shit. Different party. The two party system is shit. Both parties are shit. I love to see how PapaG, Maxiep, and BlazerBoy staunchly defend the Republican party. It is actually quite interesting to see how everyone on this forum spins current events in the spectrum of their political views, and aggressively attacks people who don't agree.

 

[PapaG]

Don't play dumb. You know very well how many record breaking times the Republicans didn't allow legislation to be debated on the Senate floor in the last Congress (08 - 10).

We've been over this before on how that "fact" was arrived at by the Dems. I'd also advise that you look up how many actual cloture floor votes there were in the 111th.

That you didn't learn a thing from it is not a surprise, though.

 

[Ed O]

Don't play dumb. You know very well how many record breaking times the Republicans didn't allow legislation to be debated on the Senate floor in the last Congress (08 - 10).

Its strategy.

I think there's a difference between a party fleeing the state and a party using existing rules of procedure.

Do you think that they're the same?

Ed O.

 

[barfo]

I think there's a difference between a party fleeing the state and a party using existing rules of procedure.

Do you think that they're the same?

Ed O.

Seems to me they are both within the rules of the game. Play on.

barfo