Public Employees Protesting WI Governor

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http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/t...ryland---for-richer-and-poorer?xrs=share_copy

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/t...rer---teachers-and-wall-street?xrs=share_copy

These two are really good videos from Jon Stewart. I encourage the open minded Republicans (BrianfromWA, DennyCrane, etc...) to watch this. The second one is VERY interesting.

A lot of the rhetoric out there reminds me of a word from one of my favorite novels out there... "DoubleThink". Its all political, its not about fairness or anything like that. The same thing happened with banks after we bailed them out, and your answer depends on what side of the spectrum your political views fall on.

Its idiotic.
 
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Again, all Gov. Walker wants to do is eliminate collective bargaining agreements for benefits. They can still collectively bargain on salary. He sees the ticking time bomb for pensions and is trying to create a permanent solution.
 
Again, all Gov. Walker wants to do is eliminate collective bargaining agreements for benefits. They can still collectively bargain on salary. He sees the ticking time bomb for pensions and is trying to create a permanent solution.
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Why would he need to do this? If it is so unpopular, and the unions said they are already in favor of paying more for their benefits, why not just compromise?

Its political, Maxiep. You should know this as well as anyone. This is ideological thinking at its finest.
 
MrJayremmie said:
Why would he need to do this? If it is so unpopular, and the unions said they are already in favor of paying more for their benefits, why not just compromise?

Its political, Maxiep. You should know this as well as anyone. This is ideological thinking at its finest.
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The unions said they were willing to increase their contribution to their benefits this year to balance the budget. The long term problem still exists. It's taking an aspirin to relieve the pain of cancer. A more drastic approach is required.

As for it being political, I disagree. Sure, it hurts the Democrats more than the Republicans, but that's only in the short term. The bigger picture is state survival. Look at these structural payments and tell me how these monies can possibly be paid. The larger problem is that collective bargaining in the public sector isn't adversarial. They're both on the same side. And giving more in benefits is both less visible and more lucrative. Salaries everyone can see. With benefits, you're making promises future lawmakers are going to have to address. It's like me taking out a loan and saying that my son will pay it back after I'm dead. I have no right to make that commitment.
 
Ok, tried to fix. The second link is linked to the correct video, but there seems to be a problem loading it on my internet. If it doesn't work, it is simply the next part of the episode after the first link. Talking about hypocrisy (mainly at Fox) about bailed out banks and salary limitations.

Its genius, and I really enjoyed it.

go to www.thedailyshow.com and click on the second video (middle one). It should be 5:12 long.
 
MrJayremmie said:
I think Christie went about this the right way.

Fact of the matter is, most of America, as well as Wisconsinites are for letting unions have collective bargaining agreements. Even the conservative pollers at Rasmussen found that out.

Apparently, the unions in Wisconsin are for paying more for their benefits. What they drew the line at was when the governor (who seems a tad fascist) wanted to strip their CBA rights. This is simply political. The layoffs, threats, everything is political here. Notice that Walker's approval ratings are ALREADY below 50% and falling. He won't last long, and this is the wrong thing the Pubs should have gone after after their momentum started. Things like this will turn momentum back to the left quickly (and it already is).
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I'm glad you brought up the Rasmussen polling data. It was interesting. Remember, it's not like Wisconsin is a state split down the middle--it's still a deep blue state which is a real union stronghold. It only elected Republicans a way to stave off financial disaster.

Look at the data behind the numbers. Walker won 52%/46%, yet the poll only had 45% of the respondents voting for Walker. In Wisconsin, 26% of households have a union member--one of the highest in the country. Yet in the poll, a full 30% of respondents came from union households. Also, note the difference between those in private and public unions. Frankly, I'm amazed the data wasn't more in favor of the unions.

As for favorability numbers, I respect a politician who governs as he campaigns. Favorability numbers go up and they go down. It's temporary. Walker ran on a certain platform. He owes it to the people who voted for him to try to enact that platform. If he's a one-term governor, then that's the price he pays.
 
As for favorability numbers, I respect a politician who governs as he campaigns. Favorability numbers go up and they go down. It's temporary. Walker ran on a certain platform. He owes it to the people who voted for him to try to enact that platform. If he's a one-term governor, then that's the price he pays.
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Interesting reversal to the way you think of Obama. Is it because his views don't agree with yours? (not being a smartass here, since you are keeping it civil I will do my best as well).
 
MrJayremmie said:
Interesting reversal to the way you think of Obama. Is it because his views don't agree with yours? (not being a smartass here, since you are keeping it civil I will do my best as well).
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I disagree with almost all of President Obama's policies, but that doesn't mean I don't respect the results of his election. He's my president.

A few of the issues I do have with President Obama is that how he ran is not how he has governed. He ran as a moderate who would reach across party lines; he's governed as anything but. Remember his first meeting with the Republicans where he stated, "I won"? I do. Why has President Obama lost the independents? Because they feel like they've been hoodwinked. The person sitting in the Oval Office bears little resemblance to the person for whom they voted. On the flip side, Gov. Walker is identical to the candidate that ran for the seat.

The other issue I have is with the Democrats exploiting every possible rule to ram home legislation. From foisting 2,000 page bills in the middle of the night with no time for review before a vote, to using budgetary reconciliation when they didn't have the votes (clearly not intended for something like Obamacare), to not allowing amendments on the floor, to not having an open process to writing legislation, the last Congress ruled like a dictatorship. You'll note that the Boehner-led Congress has been run 180 degrees from the way it was run by Speaker Pelosi.

The Wisconsin Democrats don't have the votes, so they're going to lose. That's our system of government. It can be reversed when the Democrats have the control the Republicans have now. The Wisconsin Republicans aren't trying to limit debate; they allowed 58 hours of it in the State Assembly. The anti-democratic forces are on the side of the opposition. They don't like the likely result of the vote, so they're taking the ball and going home.
 
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maxiep said:
I'm glad you brought up the Rasmussen polling data. It was interesting. Remember, it's not like Wisconsin is a state split down the middle--it's still a deep blue state which is a real union stronghold. It only elected Republicans a way to stave off financial disaster.

Look at the data behind the numbers. Walker won 52%/46%, yet the poll only had 45% of the respondents voting for Walker. In Wisconsin, 26% of households have a union member--one of the highest in the country. Yet in the poll, a full 30% of respondents came from union households. Also, note the difference between those in private and public unions. Frankly, I'm amazed the data wasn't more in favor of the unions.
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Are you saying Rasmussen did not adjust the results for the demographics of the respondents? That would be highly unusual.

barfo
 
Having given Wisconsin taxpayers' hard-earned money to his corporate buddies, the gov is now assuring the state a rapid acceleration into bankruptcy by attacking the core of it's society, rather than simply ask for the return of the money he gifted.

The silver lining for Oregonians in all this Wisconsin revolt against education melee is one less state to worry about when competing for new businesses to locate here. No major firm is going to set up in a state that young families are leaving by the droves, which is what this will result in. Leaving under-funded school systems/seeking highly-rated school systems is one of the most common reasons young families move here from other states.

That also means more people moving west, which will hurt their real estate values and help ours.
 
maxiep said:
The unions said they were willing to increase their contribution to their benefits this year to balance the budget. The long term problem still exists. It's taking an aspirin to relieve the pain of cancer. A more drastic approach is required.
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Legalizing pot?
 
The governor wants to cut the education budget. I agree this is good news for Oregon because no exec is going to put his children in those schools.

I heard a story about either Google/Intel or someone that hired this guy they really liked for an executive position and asked him to move to Oregon. He refused the job because he didn't want to move his kids into Oregon public schools.

The governor is simply an idiot. Even Christie handled this better. Moreover, the Koch brothers have admitted to fanning the anti-union flame in Wisconsin. This is simply normal politics now. There is no reason for this outside of ideological. It can be handled in a far more popular way.
 
The way this governor has been acting reminds me of this song/book.

[video=youtube;tcS0NzoSJcU]
 
MrJayremmie said:
The governor wants to cut the education budget. I agree this is good news for Oregon because no exec is going to put his children in those schools.

I heard a story about either Google/Intel or someone that hired this guy they really liked for an executive position and asked him to move to Oregon. He refused the job because he didn't want to move his kids into Oregon public schools.

The governor is simply an idiot. Even Christie handled this better. Moreover, the Koch brothers have admitted to fanning the anti-union flame in Wisconsin. This is simply normal politics now. There is no reason for this outside of ideological. It can be handled in a far more popular way.
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The data has shown beyond a doubt that throwing money at education doesn't work. Furthermore, I haven't seen a single poster against the banning of collective bargaining for benefits and health care tell me how we solve the long term entitlement budget problem for these workers. Where does this money come from? What is the solution to handle things "...in a far more popular way"?

Scott Walker and the current crop of WI Republicans have picked up the can that has been kicked down the road for decades by WI politicians, and they should be celebrated for it.
 
The data has shown beyond a doubt that throwing money at education doesn't work. Furthermore, I haven't seen a single poster against the banning of collective bargaining for benefits and health care tell me how we solve the long term entitlement budget problem for these workers. Where does this money come from? What is the solution to handle things "...in a far more popular way"?
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Well, the Republicans were screaming "Start over and use common sense!", so maybe that can be the starting point?

This is unpopular, so the governor is pretty much saying that he knows whats best for the people. Why does ending collective bargaining have to be the way to reduce the deficit? Aren't there other ways of doing this that are more in line with the mainstream views of the Wisconsinites?

I just laugh at the "doublethink" or republicans right now. They were just screaming about the president going against the general popular opinion. They were saying start over and lets compromise on a common sense bill.

Difference is, the Democrats in this case would LOVE a compromise, and so would Wisconsinites. Republicans want none if it and are going to any length to get this passed no matter how big the protests are. That is why this is ideological. They are looking at the big picture. And it has nothing to do with the deficit/debt. It has to do with defunding the democratic party one state at a time.
 
MrJayremmie said:
Well, the Republicans were screaming "Start over and use common sense!", so maybe that can be the starting point?

This is unpopular, so the governor is pretty much saying that he knows whats best for the people. Why does ending collective bargaining have to be the way to reduce the deficit? Aren't there other ways of doing this that are more in line with the mainstream views of the Wisconsinites?

I just laugh at the "doublethink" or republicans right now. They were just screaming about the president going against the general popular opinion. They were saying start over and lets compromise on a common sense bill.

Difference is, the Democrats in this case would LOVE a compromise, and so would Wisconsinites. Republicans want none if it and are going to any length to get this passed no matter how big the protests are. That is why this is ideological. They are looking at the big picture. And it has nothing to do with the deficit/debt. It has to do with defunding the democratic party one state at a time.
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Are you intentionally missing the point? I'm serious.

If you can't see how public employee collective bargaining for benefits has increased the future obligations for the taxpayers, if you don't understand the problem with the construct itself, then we can't even have a discussion. At some point, you have to do basic research.

As an aside, I'm amazed at your support for the tactics used when it comes to this debate vs. your stance on Obamacare. I knew I was going to see that abomination go through, but was willing to let the consequences of the 2008 election play out, even after the result in Virginia, even after the result in New Jersey and even after the most liberal commonwealth in the country sent a Republican to stop this legislation. It seems to me you're unwilling to recognize the results of the 2010 election for the people of Wisconsin. Scott Walker was pretty clear on his platform, and so were many of the Republican State Senators and Assemblypeople.

Ask yourself this: If the public employees and unions are so certain of the popularity and the rightness of their position, why aren't they willing to let democracy play out and reverse the decision at a later time? From their statements, it's all but certain that passing this legislation will be the end of the Republican Party in Wisconsin. Why not allow the GOP to commit sepuku in Madison?
 
The problem I have is that the health care was not a deliberate attempt to weaken republicans now and in the future. There was a ton of compromise, a lot of republican amendments in there, and no single payer or public option. The problem is the health mandate.

This governor has gone far past that. I think it is a sickening abuse of power, honestly.

As for your point, I haven't even told anyone my position on unions and there is a purpose for that. Whether I support or do not support public unions is irrelevant to what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the overstepping of the governor's powers against his own people's will.

The one thing I said was I more or less support the way Christie handled the unions. Also, I am NOT in favor of the Dems leaving the state. I am not in favor of what the governor and Republican congress is doing to try and get them back in there. Quick votes, no paycheck, arrest them (which is against their state constitution) etc... Seems like just a slight overreach to me (sarcasm).

And while I'm not for the Dems running away from the vote, I am quite in favor of the right to protest. I think they way Walker's administration is handling the protesters (even after a judge said the capital must remain open) is sickening. His threat of layoffs is also sickening. I think he is seriously lacking in character and is unfit to be a governor in this country.
 
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MrJayremmie said:
The problem I have is that the health care was not a deliberate attempt to weaken republicans now and in the future. There was a ton of compromise, a lot of republican amendments in there, and no single payer or public option. The problem is the health mandate.

This governor has gone far past that. I think it is a sickening abuse of power, honestly.
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Let me get this straight: Your point is that limiting the right of government employees to collectively bargain for their health care and benefits is a "...deliberate attempt to weaken..." Democrats? If that's the case, then the Democrats are officially the party of Government and their power should be limited. At the very least they should find a new constituency.

It's equivalent to inmates running the prison. After all, when you have the Party of Government "negotiating" with their constituents, exactly where is the disagreement? Worse yet, they're "negotiating" with other people's money.

As for Obamacare, exactly what were the Republican amendments attached to the bill? I ask, because the bill was not subject to the amendment process on the House floor. The bill was created not in committee, but the Speaker's Office. Perhaps that's why only one Republican (Joseph Cao) voted for it? As for the Senate, here's the list of 43 amendments offered that were ALL defeated by the Democrats: http://republican.senate.gov/healthcare/reconciliation/

And the compromise didn't happen between the Democrats and Republicans, but the far left wing of the Democratic party and the Blue Dog Democrats. The Republicans weren't even in the room. Seriously, try doing some research before you post.
 
MrJayremmie said:
Here you go, Maxiep. Watch this.

[video=youtube;fQuNrPg1paM]
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What's your point? That someone on FOX said something, therefore I should believe it? Sorry, but my thought processes are a little more complex than that. I do my own research, then I arrive at my conclusion.

As an aside, that's now at least two direct questions you haven't been able or willing to answer. I understand.
 
You attempt to bash me because i sidestep questions (which I have actually mostly answered) and yet your argument for or against things is "Sorry, I arrived at a different conclusion. Game. Set. Match."...

Followed by going back to bash others' opinions.
 
MrJayremmie said:
You attempt to bash me because i sidestep questions (which I have actually mostly answered) and yet your argument for or against things is "Sorry, I arrived at a different conclusion. Game. Set. Match."...

Followed by going back to bash others' opinions.
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I'm not bashing you. I'm simply pointing out that you ask me questions, and I directly answer them. I ask you questions and your response is, "Oh, yeah? What about this?" It's tedius. You continue to ignore the core elements of the issue and yet want all the credit for participating in the discussion. Sorry, but I'm not interested in a Special Olympics grading scale.
 
Surprised that no one's bumped this before now. And for giggles, I'll post the SF Chronicle blog about it:
Today, Wisconsin GOP Senators moved to pass an anti-union bill without a single Democrat present. The move took observers by surprise. GOP Senators side-stepped the need for a quorum to pass the controversial legislation, thus rendering powerless Democrats who left the state capital and traveled outside state lines to avoid a vote that would harm the teachers unions. The GOP and Governor Scott Walker effectively altered the State of Wisconsin's legislative structure toward one-party rule, and in the process moved it toward Fascism.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/abraham/detail?entry_id=84707#ixzz1GC8tGLSm
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I liked the "Senators side-stepped the need for a quorum to pass the controversial legislation, thus rendering powerless Democrats who (side-stepped the need to show up at their jobs and vote) in an attempt to avoid a vote that would harm the teachers (sic) unions." My parentheses added.

Amazing how Democratic media sources (I won't say that I saw congressmen doing it) pooh-poohed the "open" governmental process when the D's controlled the Senate, House and White House, but having their brilliant chess move blow up in their face and a vote taken now becomes a "move toward Fascism".
 
Oh come on, that is obviously an opinion piece. You could find hundreds of blogs in which Republicans were praising Walker. The title of the article is Wisconsin Republicans Move State Toward Fascism for God's sakes.

If that was from lets say Yahoo or something, then it would be different. Or USA Today or something.

This is the America we live in. Everyone can see what they agree with and try to block out as best they can views that do not agree with theirs.
 
Tea Party Thugs are blocking WI Dems in their offices so they can't vote!

Whoops, I meant Union Thugs are blocking WI GOP Assembly members in their offices and are threatening violence if they go vote, according to media reports in WI.

So much for civility and the democratic process...
 
Be proud, Democrats! I'm sure Limbaugh and Palin are to blame for this type of rhetoric.

http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/117732923.html

MADISON - The State Department of Justice confirms that it is investigating several death threats against a number of lawmakers in response to the legislature's move to strip employees of many collective bargaining rights. Among the threats the Justice Department is investigating is one that was emailed to Republican Senators Wednesday night. Newsradio 620 WTMJ has obtained that email.

The following is the unedited email:

Please put your things in order because you will be killed and your familes will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks. Please explain to them that this is because if we get rid of you and your families then it will save the rights of 300,000 people and also be able to close the deficit that you have created. I hope you have a good time in hell. Read below for more information on possible scenarios in which you will die.

WE want to make this perfectly clear. Because of your actions today and in the past couple of weeks I and the group of people that are working with me have decided that we've had enough. We feel that you and the people that support the dictator have to die. We have tried many other ways of dealing with your corruption but you have taken things too far and we will not stand for it any longer. So, this is how it's going to happen: I as well as many others know where you and your family live, it's a matter of public records.

We have all planned to assult you by arriving at your house and putting a nice little bullet in your head. However, we decided that we wouldn't leave it there. We also have decided that this may not be enough to send the message to you since you are so "high" on Koch and have decided that you are now going to single handedly make this a dictatorship instead of a demorcratic process. So we have also built several bombs that we have placed in various locations around the areas in which we know that you frequent. This includes, your house, your car, the state capitol, and well I won't tell you all of them because that's just no fun. Since we know that you are not smart enough to figure out why this is happening to you we have decided to make it perfectly clear to you. If you and your goonies feel that it's necessary to strip the rights of 300,000 people and ruin their lives, making them unable to feed, clothe, and provide the necessities to their families and themselves then We Will "get rid of" (in which I mean kill) you.

Please understand that this does not include the heroic Rep. Senator that risked everything to go aganist what you and your goonies wanted him to do. We feel that it's worth our lives to do this, because we would be saving the lives of 300,000 people. Please make your peace with God as soon as possible and say goodbye to your loved ones we will not wait any longer.

YOU WILL DIE!!!! Reply Reply to all Forward



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