Quick on Game

[B-Roy]

DID QUICK REALLY SAY THAT NATE IS LEANING TORWARDS IME GETTING MORE PLAYING TIME THEN WEBSTER???????

I did not hear this... did anyone hear that?

If so... nate is already a joke.... but this would be travesty.

When did he say this?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

In the first half last night Oden was the best player on the floor for Portland by far. In the second half he never touched the ball since Miller was dead set on tossing it in the air himself.

I noticed that. I also noticed, that despite that, even in the first half, the team was a net negative when Oden was on the floor.

And for all the good things Oden has done this preseason, we've lost two in a row (and the other two don't count, because they were against the fucking Kings) and neither of our BEST TWO PLAYERS has looked in sync. If I was Nate, I'd be getting alarmed and reach for the security of a system that worked, at least to start the season.

What did we learn this preseason? That Oden is much improved? Absolutely. Does that mean he "deserves" to start? Of course not. Where does this idea of "deserves" come from? You deserve to start if having you in the starting lineup means we win more. Has that been proved? Of course not.

 

[hasoos]

Ah yes, the insight of hasoos. Tell me, do the Blazers still have 4 pgs better than Rajon Rondo?

Times change, so do players. Back then my argument was valid. Rajon Rondo was not a good PG back then. Amazingly enough, his career started turning around when a player named KG and Ray Allen showed up. Hindsight is 20/20. My money is also on the fact that had they not shown up, he would still be as bad as he was then.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

The problem with this argument, is that you are putting Oden on the floor with Rudy, Webster, and Outlaw - 3 guys who make their living shooting the ball from the perimeter.

You mean like playing Dwight Howard with Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu and Jameer Nelson?

 

[noknobs]

last year nate said that batum was going to start on opening night. did he?

what bad can come of it? a bunch of people going crazy on a message board.

Like I said, it would be stunting the growth of chemistry between our core players by not going with that lineup more during the preseason. Why keep switching lineups at this point? We should be trying to get a rotation down, right? Get a rythm? I think this just adds to the confusion and adds to the out-of-sync problems we've clearly had so far in the preseason.

None of that is as bad as a message board freaking out, but it's still worth mentioning. Anyways, I'm still waiting to hear what good can come out of this that wouldn't otherwise...

 

[B-Roy]

You mean like playing Dwight Howard with Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu and Jameer Nelson?

Hedo, Rashard, and Nelson are all capable of finding their own shot or creating for others, though.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Times change, so do players. Back then my argument was valid.

Back then, as now, you didn't have an "argument". What you had was a "claim". Remind me who these 4 PGs were again? Wasn't one of them Taurean Green?

Rajon Rondo was not a good PG back then.

May the Gods of PGness touch Bayless as apparently they touched Rondo and miraculously convert him too. And funny how so many other people disagreed with you even then.

Amazingly enough, his career started turning around when a player named KG and Ray Allen showed up.

That's a funny-named player. And it's amazing that Rondo now looks even better when KG doesn't play (see last year's playoffs).

Hindsight is 20/20. My money is also on the fact that had they not shown up, he would still be as bad as he was then.

In a parallel world, you owe me a lot of your counterfactual money.

 

[oldmangrouch]

huh? so having guys who can do a good job of spreading the floor and punishing opposing teams who have to send help to cover oden inside is a bad thing?

If Oden only sees the ball on offensive rebounds - yes, it is a very bad thing.

 

[rocketeer]

Like I said, it would be stunting the growth of chemistry between our core players by not going with that lineup more during the preseason. Why keep switching lineups at this point? We should be trying to get a rotation down, right? Get a rythm? I think this just adds to the confusion and adds to the out-of-sync problems we've clearly had so far in the preseason.

None of that is as bad as a message board freaking out, but it's still worth mentioning. Anyways, I'm still waiting to hear what good can come out of this that wouldn't otherwise...

i can't see any good or bad that could come of it. switching up lineups in preseason games makes sense. you want to get an idea about how all of the players play with everyone else to figure what works best. if you try to only play a set rotation, there's no way to know if that's the best or the worst one.

 

[oldmangrouch]

You mean like playing Dwight Howard with Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu and Jameer Nelson?

Are you seriously suggesting Webster and Outlaw pass like those guys? Rudy I'll give you, but the other 2 are black holes.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Hedo, Rashard, and Nelson are all capable of finding their own shot or creating for others, though.

"Finding their own shot"? If you mean creating their own shot, then Travis and Rudy are better than Lewis at that. And Rudy is also better than Lewis (and, I would argue, Jameer Nelson, who is more of a gunner than a passer) at creating for others. In fact, Rudy was the best at setting up Oden last year. Rudy is very unselfish and very good at feeding Oden in the post.

I agree that Travis is a problem. I would gladly trade him for somebody like Boris Diaw or Udonis Haslem. But we may be stuck with him, and I'm sure he's good for chemistry, which I've learned to value since the days of Bob Whitsitt.

 

[Eastoff]

This is about two things as far as I can tell. Roy can't play with Andre, when he gets double teamed and wants to kick it out for a 3-ball, Andre can't hit it. Greg is far better with Andre, so he follows Andre to the second unit. Perhaps Webster could be starting with the first unit, but I think they want more points on the second and perhaps he plays a faster pace.

I think we'll see slow, careful, first unit.
Run and gun second unit.

 

[hasoos]

It amazes me that people still can't see that apparently worse players can be better for the team. I guess that's why Allen Iverson got a job in Memphis. As did Zach Randolph. Were you clamoring for Pritchard's head when he got rid of Zach's 20 and 10?

Oden is great. I love Oden. I will be mad if Oden doesn't get around 30ppg (fouls permitting). Does that mean he should start? Not necessarily. Does that mean he's a better player than Joel? Not necessarily: Joel's rebounding is as good, his defense is better, and he is much better at the little things like setting picks to get people open. And McMillan has to decide whether he rewards lunchbucket work and seniority, whereas we in fantasy BBall land can just play favorites with no consequences.



Define "completely eclipse"? To me all that matters is if the team does better with him on the floor over Joel. Prove that and you'll have a case.



Depends. Given that we won 54 games, by almost all measures overachieving, I'd guess things are okay. Presumably you think we'd've won more starting different players. The way to prove that is to show that your preferred starting lineup would do better. But not just that. You'd also have to show that the lineup of the players left over works off the bench. Because if it doesn't, and the team loses more games despite having a stellar starting lineup, then I'd have to say your idea is dumb.



Or not. And certainly not as well as Przybilla.



Newsflash: that's not Przybilla's role. And Oden can do that just as well coming off the bench, where his scoring is more needed and Przybilla's defense less needed.

OH Memphis that powerhouse? Yea I am sure they are going to do really well this year. You amazingly enough fail to mention that the players you listed above, are total cancers incapable of playing team ball. Detroit did pretty fucking good after they traded Billups for AI didn't they? All because AI is such a good player. I am pretty sure Memphis is going to suck dick this year, with the "All selfish" team like we have never seen. add on the fact you are comparing Oden to Zach Randolph right now. You are a fucking madman. Zach Randolph the offensive black hole. Zach Randolph who never played defense. Zach Randolph who constantly got arrested off the court. Zach Randolph who never ran the court a day in his life. Your comaprison of Oden to Zbo, is offensive at best.

I have seen nothing from Oden but for him to work hard, improve his game, play hard on defense (to a fault of collecting a lot of fouls as a rookie), and to say the right thing and keep his nose clean. Greg Oden so far in the pre-season has averaged more points and rebounds than Joel Pryzbilla has in his best games of his career. Sometimes Greg eclipsed his numbers in a single half, let alone a whole game. Whats his reward? Shafted to the bench.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Are you seriously suggesting Webster and Outlaw pass like those guys? Rudy I'll give you, but the other 2 are black holes.

They may not pass as well (although since when has Rashard Lewis been known for his passing?) but they also shoot a lot less, so it evens out. Turkoglu and Nelson were asked to create. With the second unit, that job will be Miller's or Rudy's. Travis and Webster can run around and create spacing.

 

[B-Roy]

"Finding their own shot"? If you mean creating their own shot, then Travis and Rudy are better than Lewis at that. And Rudy is also better than Lewis (and, I would argue, Jameer Nelson, who is more of a gunner than a passer) at creating for others. In fact, Rudy was the best at setting up Oden last year. Rudy is very unselfish and very good at feeding Oden in the post.

I think you are overrating our players. Travis MAY be better than creating his own shot than Lewis, but Rudy certainly is not. Rudy has the potential to be good in that regards, but last year, he just couldn't create for himself. And Rudy averaged 2 assists in 26 minutes last year, not nearly as good as Nelson. Rudy has handles, but he's not very good at setting people up.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Rudy averaged 2 assists in 26 minutes last year, not nearly as good as Nelson. Rudy has handles, but he's not very good at setting people up.

Actually it's the reverse. Rudy's handles are shaky but he's a better and more creative passer than Nelson. And don't you think the fact that Nelson averaged more assists had a bit to do with the fact that he had the ball A HELL OF A LOT MORE? If you could prove that Nelson averaged more assists per minute he had the ball then I would be impressed. But I very much doubt you could.

 

[hasoos]

Back then, as now, you didn't have an "argument". What you had was a "claim". Remind me who these 4 PGs were again? Wasn't one of them Taurean Green?



May the Gods of PGness touch Bayless as apparently they touched Rondo and miraculously convert him too. And funny how so many other people disagreed with you even then.



That's a funny-named player. And it's amazing that Rondo now looks even better when KG doesn't play (see last year's playoffs).



In a parallel world, you owe me a lot of your counterfactual money.

Good try dude. Back then, Rondo did suck dick. By the way, its a well known fact that players who spend time around all stars tend to get better. One thing about all stars is, they tend to make the players around them better and teach them things. One of those things is often, humility of being next to a player they know is better than them. That often humbles them and makes them teachable. Then they become better players for the rest of their career. The other being, that reaching the finals with a team tends to give most players a confidence they carry for the rest of their career. Rajon Rondo was on his way out of the league until that trade. He was a bad shooting shoot first PG. He couldn't even beat bassy out for playing time.

But I guess I was wrong. He was just so good, they never needed to get KG and Ray Allen there to win it all. That would have definitly happened all without them showing up, because Rajon Rondo was just so awesome. His 6.4 pts, 3 assist and 2 turnovers the game while shooting 40% from the field and 20% from the 3 point line would have definitly powered them over the top.

Yep he is just completely awesome. You got me there.

 

[RR7]

Point out to him that he's still getting 30 mpg, dominating his competition, earning an all-star nod, and playing for a likely division champion and conference finals participant, and then tell him to shut up and do his job.



Tell him that he is playing more (and more important) minutes at his position than his counterpart, and that he is getting a lot of the credit for the emergence of the team's franchise center, and that he should be happy to be on the best TEAM of his career.



Tell them that there's a very obvious reason that they are reserves, and that if individual accolades are of greater import to them than team success, then their services would likely be greatly appreciated in Sacramento, Minnesota, or Milwaukee.




Point out to him that if he were a more well-rounded player, he wouldn't have been pigeon-holed into the "off-the-bench-scorer" role in the first place, and that his situation is his own fault.

So why is it not ok to make these same statements to Roy and Aldridge? Say Roy, you will still get your touches, whether they come in the first 5 minutes, or the last 5, or time sin between, we will still run our offense primarily through you. We just paid you a shit load of money, now why don't you worry about the TEAM, instead of your stats. Sign LMA and tell him the same. It works both ways. Why can we only reason with some guys, and others it's ok, just cowtail to Roy? I like Brandon Roy. A lot. He's my favorite basketball player, and the reason I have season tickets. I wouldn't trade him for a single player in the NBA. I don't care how ridiculous that is. But he's shown himself to be enough of a team player to figure out a way to make it work with Oden starting. Novel idea is focus on defense for the first few periods, as opposed to worry about "getting his" and then take over in the 4th, when he's quite possibly a little fresher, because he didn't have to carry us through the first 3 quarters. He might struggle the first few weeks figuring out how it works. That's what preseason is for as well.A nd practice. Have him run with Oden and LMA and get used to the idea that those 3 will be playing topgether the next 10 years, and one of the 3 isn't always going to come off the bench. is it better to go with what worked, with lesser players now, because it worked before, and put off even further developing better chemistry between the three of them? Or would it be better to deal with a few lumps in the beginning of this season, when we have a few weaker opponents. Houston twice without Yao, OKC, Minnesota three times in the first month, Memphis twice, NJ. Why not work out some kinks in the chemistry against those guys? If not then, when? Next offseason, when we're forced to, because Joel could leave. I understand that Oden will see plenty of minutes each game, and plenty of them with Brandon and LMA in the game. So how will it be effective for those 20 minutes, but it can't be effective in the first 5 minutes of each game?

 

[yakbladder]

If Oden only sees the ball on offensive rebounds - yes, it is a very bad thing.

I'd have replied earlier but I was caught in a laughter-fit between those other two going at it...

I think what he meant is the Oden can be THE star of the second unit with most of the touches going through him. When they finally figure out they need to stop Oden he punches it the outside.

I, for one, don't think if this move even does materialize that it will last throughout the season. Eventually Oden will go to the starting lineup. But when Pryz leaves at the end of this season (and he will leave, barring injury) you're going to have to replace him with a scoring center who maybe is weak on D so that you can have someone to balance out the probable outside shooters.... If only we'd be so blessed as to use the term "outside shooters" with the Blazers.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

So why is it not ok to make these same statements to Roy and Aldridge?

Because
1. They're better than Oden
2. They've been on the team longer

There. That was easy.

 

[B-Roy]

Actually it's the reverse. Rudy's handles are shaky but he's a better and more creative passer than Nelson. And don't you think the fact that Nelson averaged more assists had a bit to do with the fact that he had the ball A HELL OF A LOT MORE? If you could prove that Nelson averaged more assists per minute he had the ball then I would be impressed. But I very much doubt you could.

Being a more creative passer doesn't automatically make you a better passer overall. Nelson averages 6 assists per/36 minutes on his career, with a usage rate of 22.4%. Rudy by comparison, averages half the amount of assists with a usage rate of 18.4%. I'd like to mention though, that during Nelson's best season assisting (07-08), he only had a usage rate of 19.0%.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Good try dude.

Thanks, man.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Being a more creative passer doesn't automatically make you a better passer overall. Nelson averages 6 assists per/36 minutes on his career, with a usage rate of 22.4%. Rudy by comparison, averages half the amount of assists with a usage rate of 18.4%. I'd like to mention though, that during Nelson's best season assisting (07-08), he only had a usage rate of 19.0%.

What's "usage rate" and how is it calculated (and by whom)?

 

[RR7]

Because
1. They're better than Oden
2. They've been on the team longer

There. That was easy.

Super easy. Why have a coach? Seems like we're paying double for that, when we have those two around!
Hopefully you don't bring up a statement from me from 4 years ago to counter this post.

 

[B-Roy]

What's "usage rate" and how is it calculated (and by whom)?

From Hollinger:

Usg Usage Rate is the number of possessions a player uses per 40 minutes. Usage Rate = {[FGA + (FT Att. x 0.44) + (Ast x 0.33) + TO] x 40 x League Pace} divided by (Minutes x Team Pace)

 

[yakbladder]

So why is it not ok to make these same statements to Roy and Aldridge? Say Roy, you will still get your touches, whether they come in the first 5 minutes, or the last 5, or time sin between, we will still run our offense primarily through you. We just paid you a shit load of money, now why don't you worry about the TEAM, instead of your stats. Sign LMA and tell him the same. It works both ways. Why can we only reason with some guys, and others it's ok, just cowtail to Roy? I like Brandon Roy. A lot. He's my favorite basketball player, and the reason I have season tickets. I wouldn't trade him for a single player in the NBA. I don't care how ridiculous that is. But he's shown himself to be enough of a team player to figure out a way to make it work with Oden starting. Novel idea is focus on defense for the first few periods, as opposed to worry about "getting his" and then take over in the 4th, when he's quite possibly a little fresher, because he didn't have to carry us through the first 3 quarters. He might struggle the first few weeks figuring out how it works. That's what preseason is for as well.A nd practice. Have him run with Oden and LMA and get used to the idea that those 3 will be playing topgether the next 10 years, and one of the 3 isn't always going to come off the bench. is it better to go with what worked, with lesser players now, because it worked before, and put off even further developing better chemistry between the three of them? Or would it be better to deal with a few lumps in the beginning of this season, when we have a few weaker opponents. Houston twice without Yao, OKC, Minnesota three times in the first month, Memphis twice, NJ. Why not work out some kinks in the chemistry against those guys? If not then, when? Next offseason, when we're forced to, because Joel could leave. I understand that Oden will see plenty of minutes each game, and plenty of them with Brandon and LMA in the game. So how will it be effective for those 20 minutes, but it can't be effective in the first 5 minutes of each game?

Because it's not effective to put Roy and LMA in that position.

Your argument makes sense in a world where everything is considered equal and where all players have balanced and complimentary skill sets. But the reality is they don't. You put crap on a stick out there in the second unit and your first unit is going to run themselves ragged trying to regain what the second unit blew apart.

Here's even a better question - why the heck do you care if the team wins games?

I don't think anyone..Nate included (though I know it's hard for you to believe) anticipates Oden being on the bench the rest of his career or even the rest of this season. But there could be a multitude of reasons why he starts on the bench at the beginning of the year. Maybe the big guy's mindset is so fragile Nate doesn't want him breaking down again till he establishes success in something other than pre-season games? Maybe Nate wants to have Miller figure out the plays completely before bringing him up w/ Oden to the first unit? Maybe Nate has been told there is a consolidation trade in the works? Maybe maybe maybe...

First rule is to wait to see what actually happens before you blow your aorta. No, scratch that. First rule of fight club is don't talk about fight club. Same with the second rule. But the third rule I'm pretty certain is wait to see what actually happens.

 

[andalusian]

Being a more creative passer doesn't automatically make you a better passer overall. Nelson averages 6 assists per/36 minutes on his career, with a usage rate of 22.4%. Rudy by comparison, averages half the amount of assists with a usage rate of 18.4%. I'd like to mention though, that during Nelson's best season assisting (07-08), he only had a usage rate of 19.0%.

I love Rudy - but I think that the above is pretty much on the money. Nelson is a pretty effective PG when all is said and done - and Rudy, to be fair, is just not. On the other hand - I have no doubt that a Miller/Rudy ball-handling/creating combo has the ability to be pretty close to the Nelson/Turk combo - I fully expect to see Rudy being used more to create this year - so a 2nd unit that has Miller/Rudy, 2 jump shooters and a big, burly center will probably be just fine.

 

[oldmangrouch]

I love Rudy - but I think that the above is pretty much on the money. Nelson is a pretty effective PG when all is said and done - and Rudy, to be fair, is just not. On the other hand - I have no doubt that a Miller/Rudy ball-handling/creating combo has the ability to be pretty close to the Nelson/Turk combo - I fully expect to see Rudy being used more to create this year - so a 2nd unit that has Miller/Rudy, 2 jump shooters and a big, burly center will probably be just fine.

I hope you are correct....but my gut reaction is that I would rather see Outlaw or Webster sent to the end of the bench, and put Howard on the floor. At the risk of sounding cold-blooded, I feel as if we have seen what Outlaw/Webster can do, and the focus needs to be on developing Rudy and Oden. If nothing else, Howard will actually try to defend people, and help keep Oden out of foul trouble.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

So why is it not ok to make these same statements to Roy and Aldridge? Say Roy, you will still get your touches, whether they come in the first 5 minutes, or the last 5, or time sin between, we will still run our offense primarily through you. We just paid you a shit load of money, now why don't you worry about the TEAM, instead of your stats. Sign LMA and tell him the same.

Never said you couldn't.

It works both ways. Why can we only reason with some guys, and others it's ok, just cowtail to Roy? I like Brandon Roy. A lot. He's my favorite basketball player, and the reason I have season tickets. I wouldn't trade him for a single player in the NBA. I don't care how ridiculous that is. But he's shown himself to be enough of a team player to figure out a way to make it work with Oden starting.

No argument here.

Novel idea is focus on defense for the first few periods, as opposed to worry about "getting his" and then take over in the 4th, when he's quite possibly a little fresher, because he didn't have to carry us through the first 3 quarters. He might struggle the first few weeks figuring out how it works. That's what preseason is for as well. And practice. Have him run with Oden and LMA and get used to the idea that those 3 will be playing topgether the next 10 years, and one of the 3 isn't always going to come off the bench.

Very true--"because we've done it this way before" is a terrible reason to continue a course of action instead of trying something that might be better.

is it better to go with what worked, with lesser players now, because it worked before, and put off even further developing better chemistry between the three of them? Or would it be better to deal with a few lumps in the beginning of this season, when we have a few weaker opponents. Houston twice without Yao, OKC, Minnesota three times in the first month, Memphis twice, NJ. Why not work out some kinks in the chemistry against those guys? If not then, when? Next offseason, when we're forced to, because Joel could leave. I understand that Oden will see plenty of minutes each game, and plenty of them with Brandon and LMA in the game. So how will it be effective for those 20 minutes, but it can't be effective in the first 5 minutes of each game?

I never said I agree with McMillan's lineup decision--all I'm saying is that there are some reasons for it, and that Oden and Miller can take a positive viewpoint if they choose to do so.

People are not defined by their circumstances; they are defined by how they respond to them. I would hope that Oden and (especially) Miller would be able to respond to this decision in a manner that is positive for them and for the team, because it is ultimately their decision and responsibility to do so.

 

[EWT]

Wish it was Brandon, LA, Greg, Martell and Andre. I do understand Nate wanting to balance out the rotation though.

HCP you know that starting lineup doesn't give us our most effective rotations!

Roy, Blake, Batum, LA and Pryz went 27-11 last year. Roy and LA should get any and all shots that they want, no reason to have Greg, Dre and Martell out there when they aren't getting shots.

Dre and Greg need to play together, period.

Dre is the best lob passer in the league and on a unit with Greg, Martell, and Rudy there are plenty of lobs to go around. I agree Miller should play 30 minutes but it should be coming off the bench.

Blake should be playing similar to Batum last year, get the start but play 15-20 minutes a night. Blake is the ultimate compliment to Roy and no doubt is more valuable in our offense than any other in the league. He just fits and allows Brandon to do what he does best.

Same with Greg, 30 minutes a night but be coming off the bench.

I absolutely believe Brandon and Dre can play well together but to be the most effective over 48 minutes, their minutes should be staggered as much as possible. When the offense isn't all about Brandon and LA, it should be Andre and Greg.

I love all of the idiots on here calling for Nate's head. All he has done is taken this franchise from the worst in the league and 21 wins to 54 in 3 years. Team's do not win in this league without role players and chemistry which can be much more valuable than talent. Let Nate bake his damn cake!!!!! If it doesn't work 20 games into the season then start bitching and tell me you told me so, in the mean time Go Blazers.