Quite Reasonable that : God Does Exist

[Eastoff]

Crow, I guess I'm a bit confused by your position. You've stated elsewhere that you can only accept as real that which can be proved, and yet you are willing to go to great lengths of conjecture about possible explanation of "infinite god-free universe" and "possible workarounds to the apparent necessity of an absolute beginning" to avoid having to acknowledge an external causative factor for the origin of our universe. To put it another way, suppose that there is actually a god that created this universe and, because he is outside of our universe his existence cannot be proven in any scientific way. Your philosophy would seem to require you deny the real answer to creation and go off in search of any other notion that the human mind can conjure up to potentially explain the origin of the universe absent a god, even if those notions cannot themselves be proven or tested. I constantly hear atheists refusing to believe in a "god of the gaps". I have an equally hard time with a "science of the gaps" approach.

If a being created our universe, but lived outside of our universe, it would imply that being crossed the "outsideness." Therefore we too could somehow cross this "outsideness." So we could scientifically prove/find that being if it still existed.

 

[Nikolokolus]

LOL!

It's got the best burn. So smokey and peaty ... yum

 

[magnifier661]

I started to check out the vid you posted but right off the bat it made claims about what atheists believe that is untrue.

It said "Whatever begins as a cause" This is only known to be true under our laws of nature which break down at the edges and we have no idea about outside of our universe. A quick thought on this, time is part of our universe but outside of here where there is no time, there may be nothing preceding or subsequent. If everything is in all moments then nothing has a cause. Basically, we just don't know.

Second point it made was "The Universe began to exist" Once again, time in our lens but may not have anything to do with the realm outside of here, so "began" doesn't play a role, but most importantly, we just don't know.

The last of the three points put the first two points together, If "whatever begins has a cause" and The universe began to exist" the "The Universe has a cause" But without 1 and 2, there is no 3 and I already disputed 1 and 2. Then the vid tried to bolster it's argument by mentioning the second law of thermodynamics, but as has been said, those are our laws of nature, as in while in this universe. And not always, during the first milliseconds of the universe those laws didn't even exist here yet. Basically, we just don't know.

At that point I stopped watching the vid.


Basically, the video and you are claiming atheists have all sorts of beliefs we just don't have. It's simple, we have a lot of data about our universe from a few milliseconds on till now, but we know nothing before that. There is not an assumption because there is not even enough data to make an informed hypothesis. Dig?

What so you believe there is a place outside this universe?

 

[magnifier661]

It's got the best burn. So smokey and peaty ... yum

I've never been a scotch or whiskey drinker. once I bought some 30 year McCallen (sp?) for a client in asia and drank it. It was really smooth. Other whiskeys and scotches hurt to drink!

 

[magnifier661]

If a being created our universe, but lived outside of our universe, it would imply that being crossed the "outsideness." Therefore we too could somehow cross this "outsideness." So we could scientifically prove/find that being if it still existed.

How you figure?

 

[Sedatedfork]

This discussion has given me a great idea for a Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel. Hmm, I might actually take a shot at writing it. And no, it's not a fucking Harry Potter rip off either.

 

[magnifier661]

This discussion has given me a great idea for a Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel. Hmm, I might actually take a shot at writing it. And no, it's not a fucking Harry Potter rip off either.

I would love to see the pitch! Sounds interesting!

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Man mags, you are way deep into this god thing. Good for you!

 

[magnifier661]

Man mags, you are way deep into this god thing. Good for you!

Thanks, I just love knowing that there is this being that made me important. That life isn't just this random act of destruction and rebirth. There is purpose and I am part of this purpose.

 

[Eastoff]

How you figure?

Because that being crossed the boundary. If one being can do it, the laws of physics say it can be done again, unless it was some kind of time dependent thing.

 

[Eastoff]

Thanks, I just love knowing that there is this being that made me important. That life isn't just this random act of destruction and rebirth. There is purpose and I am part of this purpose.

What is the purpose of millions of deaths? What evil thing did the Jews do? What evil thing did the Mongols act upon to kill 10million+ What evil thing do babies do to be born into meth families? if it's all part of "his plan" It sounds more like the Devil is more powerful than God.

 

[Further]

What so you believe there is a place outside this universe?

I believe there is this universe, and then there may or may not be something (I would not call it a place or a time or a thing because we just don't have any information) outside of our current situation. There may be an infinite number of universes, there may be nothing, the point is, I don't know, and it's fine to not know. There is nothing wrong with saying "I don't know".

 

[magnifier661]

Because that being crossed the boundary. If one being can do it, the laws of physics say it can be done again, unless it was some kind of time dependent thing.

Oh I don't know if I want to get into why I believe that one can cross this boundary without being of this boundary to avoid derailing this thread. But I have a theory on how this is the case.

But lets get into brass tax with what we know now. If one is outside the boundary, then one cannot measure this boundary unless they aren't apart of the other boundary.

 

[magnifier661]

What is the purpose of millions of deaths? What evil thing did the Jews do? What evil thing did the Mongols act upon to kill 10million+ What evil thing do babies do to be born into meth families? if it's all part of "his plan" It sounds more like the Devil is more powerful than God.

You have just explained humanity. Good for you. Something that I believe God gave us. We are at fault for killing ourselves. We choose to pull the trigger, gas or whatever. Until you can see the forest through the trees, you will never grasp the concept.

 

[Eastoff]

Oh I don't know if I want to get into why I believe that one can cross this boundary without being of this boundary to avoid derailing this thread. But I have a theory on how this is the case.

But lets get into brass tax with what we know now. If one is outside the boundary, then one cannot measure this boundary unless they aren't apart of the other boundary.

If I am trapped in a room with a tape measure, that room has a boundary. I can measure that room with my tape measure.

 

[Eastoff]

You have just explained humanity. Good for you. Something that I believe God gave us. We are at fault for killing ourselves. We choose to pull the trigger, gas or whatever. Until you can see the forest through the trees, you will never grasp the concept.

This is a bullshit answer that I hate.

 

[magnifier661]

If I am trapped in a room with a tape measure, that room has a boundary. I can measure that room with my tape measure.

Yep, you just measured the universe. But if you are trapped in a room with a tape measure, can you measure what's outside of the room?

 

[magnifier661]

This is a bullshit answer that I hate.

Well you can hate it all you want, but if you can't own up to humanity causing what it caused, then you can be labeled one that likes to blame others for their mistakes.

 

[Further]

One of the most amazing things to me which highlights the "I don't know nature of things and is in OUR universe to boot, is that all matter as we know it only accounts for 4.6% of the matter in the universe ,with Dark Energy and Dark Matter accounting for the rest. But aside from it having gravitational pull, it really doesn't interact with any of the known matter as far as we can tell. This, having to live knowing that only 4.6% of the chair im sitting in, the air I'm breathing, the keyboard I'm typing on can even be detected by me, I think that's awesome. And I just have to accept that I just don't know. Now people are working on this, and since it is currently everywhere in our reality, it is something that technically can be known and scientists are working on understanding it, but to me, it's just some super-mystery. And that's actually kind of cool.

 

[magnifier661]

One of the most amazing things to me which highlights the "I don't know nature of things and is in OUR universe to boot, is that all matter as we know it only accounts for 4.6% of the matter in the universe ,with Dark Energy and Dark Matter accounting for the rest. But aside from it having gravitational pull, it really doesn't interact with any of the known matter as far as we can tell. This, having to live knowing that only 4.6% of the chair im sitting in, the air I'm breathing, the keyboard I'm typing on can even be detected by me, I think that's awesome. And I just have to accept that I just don't know. Now people are working on this, and since it is currently everywhere in our reality, it is something that technically can be known and scientists are working on understanding it, but to me, it's just some super-mystery. And that's actually kind of cool.

Faith is awesome huh? I love it too

 

[Sedatedfork]

Maybe it's better not to know. Do you think cows on a farm want to know that they are being raised to be slaughtered?

 

[Further]

What so you believe there is a place outside this universe?

Oh, and it's kind of BS that I write that long reasoned explanation why that video does not represent what atheists believe, as you and it claims, and you skip over all of that to just ask this piece of shit question.

 

[Eastoff]

Well you can hate it all you want, but if you can't own up to humanity causing what it caused, then you can be labeled one that likes to blame others for their mistakes.

So God would rather let us all suffer in this life that only we know?

 

[Eastoff]

Yep, you just measured the universe. But if you are trapped in a room with a tape measure, can you measure what's outside of the room?

Yes, I can break that wall, I can cut a door, I can add a window I can call through the wall to someone else and ask them.

 

[Further]

Faith is awesome huh? I love it too

The opposite. Read.
You believe in something that is unknown, I don't believe in things that are unknown. Opposite.

 

[magnifier661]

Oh, and it's kind of BS that I write that long reasoned explanation why that video does not represent what atheists believe, as you and it claims, and you skip over all of that to just ask this piece of shit question.

Why would you think it's BS? You just skimmed through the entire vid, only to point out one minuscule part of that video to discredit the entire point?

 

[magnifier661]

The opposite. Read.
You believe in something that is unknown, I don't believe in things that are unknown. Opposite.

So you don't believe that the universe is infinite?

 

[magnifier661]

Yes, I can break that wall, I can cut a door, I can add a window I can call through the wall to someone else and ask them.

Oh you can? Show me how science discovered ways to observe what's outside this universe?

 

[Eastoff]

Oh you can? Show me how science discovered ways to observe what's outside this universe?

Dark matter and Dark energy are thought to be other universes seeping through.

 

[Further]

Why would you think it's BS? You just skimmed through the entire vid, only to point out one minuscule part of that video to discredit the entire point?

I watched the first third of the video but everything it claimed atheists believe I don't believe. So why listen. If i showed you a video that says theists believe in a god that has eight arms and sits cross-leggedd, and has a trunk, you would so that was BS, it only represents a small portion of theists.