Real issue I'm dealing with - atheism vs judaism

[magnifier661]

The number one killer of Jews were atheist believers. They killed more than hitler!

 

[ABM]

IIRC, many Jews are still awaiting Jesus (The Messiah) to come the first time.

Then, there are these Jews:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/

 

[Further]

The number one killer of Jews were atheist believers. They killed more than hitler!

Go find another thread

 

[Further]

IIRC, many Jews are still awaiting Jesus (The Messiah) to come the first time.

Yes, many believe there will be another prophet

Then, there are these Jews:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/

Those aren't Jews, they are Christians.

 

[ABM]

Those aren't Jews, they are Christians.

There are many Messianic Jews in the world.

http://www.mjaa.org/site/PageServer?pagename=n_about_us_history

 

[magnifier661]

Go find another thread

Was just adding an important element to atheism vs Judaism. It's the truth... The Russian communist movement killed more Jews than nazi Germany. I think it's weird that a Jew would overlook that.

 

[magnifier661]

Yes, many believe there will be another prophet

Those aren't Jews, they are Christians.

It's weird that you would accept Judaism can accept atheism because its not a religious preference; yet you cannot accept that a Jew can adopt Christianity? Seems like a contradiction to me.

 

[Further]

The definition of Christian is believing in Christ. If they call themselves Jews or baptists does not matter, they believe in Christ.

 

[magnifier661]

And.... You said "being Jewish" doesn't need religion to define a Jew. Well if your definition is true; then there is no problem being a christian. In fact the first Christians were Jews.

 

[Denny Crane]

Seriously. Go find another thread. There are plenty that discuss the merits of atheism and religion.

This isn't supposed to be one of them.

 

[ABM]

The definition of Christian is believing in Christ. If they call themselves Jews or baptists does not matter, they believe in Christ.

Then, there are "born" Jews. It's not something they're called. Rather, it's something they "are". Even if they convert to Christianity (hence, Messianic Jews), they're still Jews.

 

[magnifier661]

Then, there are "born" Jews. It's not something they're called. Rather, it's something they "are". Even if they convert to Christianity (hence, Messianic Jews), they're still Jews.

Exactly

 

[Further]

It's weird that you would accept Judaism can accept atheism because its not a religious preference; yet you cannot accept that a Jew can adopt Christianity? Seems like a contradiction to me.

I suppose if their mothers are Jewish they would be. And if they followed the Jewish law, they could be considered good Jews. Except that some of those mitzvots include the act of praying an to not pray to false prophets. If they believed in Christ but never never prayed to him, they could be considered a good Jew

 

[Further]

Mags, did you read all the posts before you joined, cause this thread had a totally different point then you have brought.

 

[ABM]

...they could be considered a good Jew

OK, now we're discussing the definition of a "good" Jew.

Progress.

 

[magnifier661]

I suppose if their mothers are Jewish they would be. And if they followed the Jewish law, they could be considered good Jews. Except that some of those mitzvots include the act of praying an to not pray to false prophets. If they believed in Christ but never never prayed to him, they could be considered a good Jew

See this is confusing to me. If being a good Jew is not to worship "false profits" but they have personal conviction that Jesus was truly a profit; then how would that go against their law?

And to go even further, the idea of no God is a worship that only you are your God. Meaning you can only count on your own merits to bring success to you and your loved ones. You are now your own profit.

What would you do if your child became a Christian? Would you tell him he can't be a Jew? How would that make them feel that they see you believing atheism and Judaism is compatible, yet Christianity and Judaism can't?

 

[magnifier661]

Mags, did you read all the posts before you joined, cause this thread had a totally different point then you have brought.

I have and I wanted to point out a few things on the atheism vs Judaism concept. I've read that you want to make a good impression and openness to your children.

Sorry if what I'm saying upsets you.

 

[Further]

OK, now we're discussing the definition of a "good" Jew.

Progress.

Why don't you read the long posts I wrote earlier in this thread. I have already discussed Jew vs good Jew.

 

[Denny Crane]

Here's a better way to think about it.

A person is born black. He grows up a christian. He converts to islam. He's still black.

A person is born a Jew. He can convert to anything. He's still a Jew.

 

[magnifier661]

Seriously. Go find another thread. There are plenty that discuss the merits of atheism and religion.

This isn't supposed to be one of them.

Excuse me? My posts are directly related to the OP. Show me how I'm not on topic?

 

[magnifier661]

Here's a better way to think about it.

A person is born black. He grows up a christian. He converts to islam. He's still black.

A person is born a Jew. He can convert to anything. He's still a Jew.

So a Christian Jew is still very compatible yes?

 

[Further]

See this is confusing to me. If being a good Jew is not to worship "false profits" but they have personal conviction that Jesus was truly a profit; then how would that go against their law?

i suppose you could, but other Jews wouldn't consider you a good Jew because Jews as a whole do not accept your prophet. At some point you are part of a tribe, a culture, and going against that heritage would start to seperate you from the group. Technically you may have found a workaround, but in how every Jew would view you, if you believe and especially worship Christ you not a good Jew.

And to go even further, the idea of no God is a worship that only you are your God. Meaning you can only count on your own merits to bring success to you and your loved ones. You are now your own profit.

you lost me

What would you do if your child became a Christian? Would you tell him he can't be a Jew? How would that make them feel that they see you believing atheism and Judaism is compatible, yet Christianity and Judaism can't?

I would make sure I loved them. I would let others deal with the religious shit cause I wouldn't care.

But I suspect others would tell him he was non practicing Jew or not a good Jew.

 

[Further]

Here's a better way to think about it.

A person is born black. He grows up a christian. He converts to islam. He's still black.

A person is born a Jew. He can convert to anything. He's still a Jew.

You made it nice and easy. I'm black!

 

[Further]

So a Christian Jew is still very compatible yes?

Yes, but they would be a non practicing Jew or not concidered a good Jew, but if their mother is Jewish they are Jewish.

 

[magnifier661]

i suppose you could, but other Jews wouldn't consider you a good Jew because Jews as a whole do not accept your prophet. At some point you are part of a tribe, a culture, and going against that heritage would start to seperate you from the group. Technically you may have found a workaround, but in how every Jew would view you, if you believe and especially worship Christ you not a good Jew.

Wait but being a Jew is like being black right? So being a Jew does have religious laws then?

And you say it's some loop hole that wouldn't be accepted by Jews, yet the atheist found one and they can still be a good Jew? I'm confused...

you lost me

If you don't believe in God(s); then by definition; you believe that you will not worship God(s). If that's the case; then you become your own God; because there is no supernatural being that you need to worship. You worship yourself.

I would make sure I loved them. I would let others deal with the religious shit cause I wouldn't care.

That's awesome of you!

But I suspect others would tell him he was non practicing Jew or not a good Jew.

Well that's fucked up and no wonder I think the concept of this lifestyle is full of shit!

 

[magnifier661]

Yes, but they would be a non practicing Jew or not concidered a good Jew, but if their mother is Jewish they are Jewish.

So is an atheist a non or acting Jew? Are they considered "good Jews"?

 

[ABM]

if you believe and especially worship Christ you not a good Jew.

What the Pharisees said.

 

[Further]

Wait but being a Jew is like being black right? So being a Jew does have religious laws then?

And you say it's some loop hole that wouldn't be accepted by Jews, yet the atheist found one and they can still be a good Jew? I'm confused...

No, I am not a good Jew because I don't follow the laws. I am a Jew, just not a good Jew.

But social convention would still be more accepting of me as an atheist because I don't actively believe and act in a way that separates them from Christianity.

Is a murderer still a human? Yes, but most people would say barely. The murderer would be shunned for breaking a social law (and real law) that in many way defines who we are.

If you don't believe in God(s); then by definition; you believe that you will not worship God(s). If that's the case; then you become your own God; because there is no supernatural being that you need to worship. You worship yourself.

no, I am not my own god. That is just dumb. I do not worship myself. Not in any way, shape or form. In fact, I am frequently not happy with myself. You are bringing you religious shit into no religion and it just doesn't match up.

Well that's fucked up and no wonder I think the concept of this lifestyle is full of shit!

I don't see why. But that's how it is regardless.

 

[Further]

So is an atheist a non or acting Jew? Are they considered "good Jews"?

I would be considered both a non-practicing Jew and I would not be considered a good Jew, but I am considered a Jew.

 

[magnifier661]

I would be considered both a non-practicing Jew and I would not be considered a good Jew, but I am considered a Jew.

Okay so a Christian Jew would be considered a Jew just like you?