Real issue I'm dealing with - atheism vs judaism

[ABM]

Okay so a Christian Jew would be considered a Jew just like you?

jus messin'

 

[magnifier661]

No, I am not a good Jew because I don't follow the laws. I am a Jew, just not a good Jew.

Glad we cleared that up. So a Christian Jew is looked the same way as an atheist Jew.

But social convention would still be more accepting of me as an atheist because I don't actively believe and act in a way that separates them from Christianity.

Is a murderer still a human? Yes, but most people would say barely. The murderer would be shunned for breaking a social law (and real law) that in many way defines who we are.
no, I am not my own god. That is just dumb. I do not worship myself. Not in any way, shape or form. In fact, I am frequently not happy with myself. You are bringing you religious shit into no religion and it just doesn't match up.

This is a total contradiction.

 

[Further]

Glad we cleared that up. So a Christian Jew is looked the same way as an atheist

Yes, as long as their mother was Jewish, like mine.

Also, and this is just social convention, but although we would both be considered non practicing, the Christian would be looked at with much more disdain because what they are doing is actively going against Jewish beliefs. That doesn't mean that they couldn't become a good Jew again by simply becoming a practicing Jew, but as long as someone believes in Jesus they are considered outsiders and mocked. There is one member of my extended family who became a Christian and they are the butt of jokes when they aren't around. But still, they are loved and invited too all big events. But so many Jews are atheist it commonplace and viewed more as someone who just isn't ready yet. My more religious relatives believe that o day I'll start going to synagogue more frequently and bome a practicing Jew.





Another interesting thing that came about mainly in the 70's and 80's are JuBo's (that's a derogatory term) or Jewish Buddhists. I never got into it, but there are some pretty big communities of them and they are interestingly held in pretty high regard even though they are not "good Jews".

Basically, a lot of it comes down to social convention, not some prescribed doctrine.

 

[magnifier661]

Yes, as long as their mother was Jewish, like mine.

Also, and this is just social convention, but although we would both be considered non practicing, the Christian would be looked at with much more disdain because what they are doing is actively going against Jewish beliefs. That doesn't mean that they couldn't become a good Jew again by simply becoming a practicing Jew, but as long as someone believes in Jesus they are considered outsiders and mocked. There is one member of my extended family who became a Christian and they are the butt of jokes when they aren't around. But still, they are loved and invited too all big events. But so many Jews are atheist it commonplace and viewed more as someone who just isn't ready yet. My more religious relatives believe that o day I'll start going to synagogue more frequently and bome a practicing Jew.





Another interesting thing that came about mainly in the 70's and 80's are JuBo's (that's a derogatory term) or Jewish Buddhists. I never got into it, but there are some pretty big communities of them and they are interestingly held in pretty high regard even though they are not "good Jews".

Basically, a lot of it comes down to social convention, not some prescribed doctrine.

Well things change and there probably was a point years ago when atheism and Judaism were very incompatible. That day may be the same for Christians and Jews. Just like Paul, converting to Christianity; when he was a devote Jew before it.

 

[ABM]

Just like Paul, converting to Christianity; when he was a devote Jew before it.

True dat!

Acts 26:1-23

Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You have permission to speak for yourself.”

So Paul motioned with his hand and began his defense: 2 “King Agrippa, I consider myself fortunate to stand before you today as I make my defense against all the accusations of the Jews, 3 and especially so because you are well acquainted with all the Jewish customs and controversies. Therefore, I beg you to listen to me patiently.

4 “The Jewish people all know the way I have lived ever since I was a child, from the beginning of my life in my own country, and also in Jerusalem. 5 They have known me for a long time and can testify, if they are willing, that I conformed to the strictest sect of our religion, living as a Pharisee. 6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today. 7 This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. King Agrippa, it is because of this hope that these Jews are accusing me. 8 Why should any of you consider it incredible that God raises the dead?

9 “I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the Lord’s people in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. 11 Many a time I went from one synagogue to another to have them punished, and I tried to force them to blaspheme. I was so obsessed with persecuting them that I even hunted them down in foreign cities.

12 “On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[a] ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

19 “So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. 20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds. 21 That is why some Jews seized me in the temple courts and tried to kill me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

and.........

Philippians 3:1-14

Further, my brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you. 2 Watch out for those dogs, those evildoers, those mutilators of the flesh. 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence.

If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.

7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[a] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

 

[Further]

Ok, you guys can have this thread.

 

[ABM]

Ok, you guys can have this thread.

Aww...

 

[magnifier661]

Ok, you guys can have this thread.

And this is why I think you'd have a huge problem with your kid becoming a Christian.

And what makes you jumping on the christian threads, speaking your mind; then get all butt hurt about coming on yours?

 

[ABM]

I will have a conversation with my nephew about how to be a proud atheist and a proud Jew at the same time.

My question is, how do you propose doing that? They seem absolutely diametrically opposed....on any level.

 

[Jayps15]

This was a pretty good thread until Mags and ABM joined, very interesting and pretty thoughtful.

Like a few said, I think you've got your pitch down, it's just about delivery now. Good luck.

 

[Further]

This was a pretty good thread until Mags and ABM joined, very interesting and pretty thoughtful.

Like a few said, I think you've got your pitch down, it's just about delivery now. Good luck.

Thanks, ya, a smart 12 year old is going to see through any bs. I'll just be honest and thoughtful. I don't know if he will ever actually have a bar mitzvah, but I would like at a minimum for him to leave the conversation with a sense of his families history.

 

[ABM]

Thanks, ya, a smart 12 year old is going to see through any bs. I'll just be honest and thoughtful. I don't know if he will ever actually have a bar mitzvah, but I would like at a minimum for him to leave the conversation with a sense of his families history.

Hey, just wanted you to know that in no way was I attempting to hijack your thread. I guess it's just that when I saw the terms, atheism and Judaism served up in the same sentence, red lights flashed in my mind. In no way can/do I see the two connected.

At any rate, , you and I are Kass's bbf's.

 

[Further]

Hey, just wanted you to know that in no way was I attempting to hijack your thread. I guess it's just that when I saw the terms, atheism and Judaism served up in the same sentence, red lights flashed in my mind. In no way can/do I see the two connected.

At any rate, , you and I are Kass's bbf's.

No problem brother

Any thread can turn any direction.

 

[jlprk]

See this is confusing to me. If being a good Jew is not to worship "false profits" but they have personal conviction that Jesus was truly a profit; then how would that go against their law?

Are you saying there are too many Jewish accountants?

 

[jlprk]

And we wonder why that dame ditched this board.

God, here's my advice. Invite Magnifier to the Bar Mitzvah. Display him as an example of what he's running from if he becomes very Jewish. That ought to break his will.

Backup plan: Show him samples of Magnifier's spelling.

 

[crandc]

God, I'd like to go back to the original question and not the side issues of anti-communism and converting Jews to Christianity (in which case of course they cease to be Jews).

I am like your nephew. I "made my decision for atheism" at about 13. I am Jewish by culture and tradition. I do not attend services but I observe some holidays. I don't fast on Yom Kippur but I don't work and try to do something meaningful.

As to your nephew: A Bar (or Bat, don't forget the girls) Mitzvah is not just learning about Jewish history. It is not just coming of age. It is a literally Son/Daughter of the Commandments. The girl or boy is now an adult in the congregation and responsible for observance of the commandments. While no one requires a declaration of belief, they study the Torah not as history or literature but as coming from G-d. Depending on the degree of orthodoxy or otherwise, they may consider the really nasty parts (killing disobedient children, forcing rape victims to marry rapists, wiping out whole nations) allegorical or outdated or somesuch. But my point is that going to shul for a year or more is not simply an academic study, it is a religious study. And if the boy is an atheist and that is truly what he believes, IMO it would be hypocrisy for him to commit to being the son of commandments he does not consider any more than good ideas to live by (some are, some are not, some are frankly nonsensical). Saying he should do this to get a reward is actually a violation of the commandments. And one could argue it is disrespectful to actual believers if someone goes for a Bar/Bat Mitzvah while thinking it's all nonsense. So it puts you in a very awkward position.

I think you should make it clear the decision is his and his alone. I also think you should encourage him to study Jewish history and culture (and the history and culture of others as well) and to critically study Torah, not as divine word but think about what it says. Is it right? Wrong? Likely? Frankly, I don't think atheists should have a Bar/Bat Mizvah because it goes against their belief.

 

[Further]

God, I'd like to go back to the original question and not the side issues of anti-communism and converting Jews to Christianity (in which case of course they cease to be Jews).

I am like your nephew. I "made my decision for atheism" at about 13. I am Jewish by culture and tradition. I do not attend services but I observe some holidays. I don't fast on Yom Kippur but I don't work and try to do something meaningful.

As to your nephew: A Bar (or Bat, don't forget the girls) Mitzvah is not just learning about Jewish history. It is not just coming of age. It is a literally Son/Daughter of the Commandments. The girl or boy is now an adult in the congregation and responsible for observance of the commandments. While no one requires a declaration of belief, they study the Torah not as history or literature but as coming from G-d. Depending on the degree of orthodoxy or otherwise, they may consider the really nasty parts (killing disobedient children, forcing rape victims to marry rapists, wiping out whole nations) allegorical or outdated or somesuch. But my point is that going to shul for a year or more is not simply an academic study, it is a religious study. And if the boy is an atheist and that is truly what he believes, IMO it would be hypocrisy for him to commit to being the son of commandments he does not consider any more than good ideas to live by (some are, some are not, some are frankly nonsensical). Saying he should do this to get a reward is actually a violation of the commandments. And one could argue it is disrespectful to actual believers if someone goes for a Bar/Bat Mitzvah while thinking it's all nonsense. So it puts you in a very awkward position.

I think you should make it clear the decision is his and his alone. I also think you should encourage him to study Jewish history and culture (and the history and culture of others as well) and to critically study Torah, not as divine word but think about what it says. Is it right? Wrong? Likely? Frankly, I don't think atheists should have a Bar/Bat Mizvah because it goes against their belief.

I basically started with your exact belief. It was only after my father came to me (also an atheist Jew) and explained how much it meant to him did I start to think about saying anything at all to my nephew on the subject.

But what I have decided is close to what you said. I will be having a discussion with him about the Jewish history and culture, and the importance of family. I don't plan on bringing up the Bar Mitzvah. I just want him to know that he can keep his views and still be proud of his heritage. Right now he is very vocal every time Judaism is brought up in any context that he thinks its hogwash. I don't want to change his mind (I basically share his views), just get him to see that there is some beauty in it also. I want him to embrace the giving nature, the companionate nature and the loving nature of the Jewish people, regardless of religious aspects.



My sister has two kids who have gone to Shul their entire life. They will be having a Bat and Bar mitzvah (one of each) soon enough.

 

[crandc]

It is always difficult when family expectations and our personal beliefs clash.

I can compromise on some things - I attended services when there are family events - but I have made it clear in my legal documents I do not want a Jewish funeral as that would disrespect the rabbi and dishonor me. Just dispose of my remains in the least expensive and most environmentally friendly way possible after harvesting any parts that are usable.

 

[Eastoff]

I'm just curious if our Jewish posters have any thoughts to share on the re-emerging ultra orthodox Jews of Israel and/or NYC

 

[Eastoff]

Another kind of OT question: Do you consider the Old Testament to be part of the Jewish faith, or is it just the Torah? I know most Christians say that the old testament is not for them, just the new testament is the law.

 

[magnifier661]

So crandc says Africans can't be Christians? I thought Jewish people is a nationality, not a belief? Talk about double standards! Lmao!

 

[crandc]

It's OT, but Eastoff, I regard the rise in fundamentalism of any faith as a response to a rapidly changing sometimes incomprehensible world where there seems no way out of troubles, and all are blinders that keep people from actually changing the world. Not surprisingly, the Orthodox are as anti-woman and homphobic as their fundamentalist Christian and Muslim brethren (male noun used purposely). Tanach is part of the Jewish faith and includes the Torah as well as other parts (prophets, writings) of the book. We don't use term "Old Testament" as "old" necessarily implies a "new" which we do not recognize.

 

[Further]

Another kind of OT question: Do you consider the Old Testament to be part of the Jewish faith, or is it just the Torah? I know most Christians say that the old testament is not for them, just the new testament is the law.

Torah comes from the Hebrew word for "law" and refers to the first five books of the Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy—also known as the Pentateuch. The word torah is used also to refer to the scroll of parchment on which the Pentateuch is written.

In Orthodox Judaism, the Torah also can refer to the entirety of the law, both in written form (Scripture and other sacred writings) and in oral Tradition.

When the Catholics refer to the Old Testament, they are referring to all forty-six books of the Bible written before Christ, including the first five that the Jews call the Torah.

 

[Eastoff]

Thanks Crandc and GOD! Very informative.

 

[Further]

I'm just curious if our Jewish posters have any thoughts to share on the re-emerging ultra orthodox Jews of Israel and/or NYC

I don't have much of an opinion. They seem about as distant to me as the must seem to other non-Jews. I have no orthodox Jews in my family that I know of. I know we had some that were put to death in Europe, but I don't think there has been any since then.

 

[Further]

So crandc says Africans can't be Christians? I thought Jewish people is a nationality, not a belief? Talk about double standards! Lmao!

obtuse much?

 

[magnifier661]

obtuse much?

NOPE... And you seem to jump into the religious threads and point out your "I hate this belief".

I completely understand what you are saying. I just think it's a serious double standard. I still don't understand how an atheist can be a Jew, yet they can't be a Christian.

 

[Further]

because its a double standard. Everything is not always fair. But being a Christian means they are not Jewish, because Jews do not believe in Jesus as a prophet. That's it. Simple.


As far as being Judaism being both religious and culture, that's what it is. In some context it's one, in some it's the other, in some it's both, but in none are Christians also Jews.

 

[magnifier661]

because its a double standard. Everything is not always fair. But being a Christian means they are not Jewish, because Jews do not believe in Jesus as a prophet. That's it. Simple.


As far as being Judaism being both religious and culture, that's what it is. In some context it's one, in some it's the other, in some it's both, but in none are Christians also Jews.

Which is why it can't be compatible with atheism. Thanks for clearing that up.

And I find it even more confusing that you would use the monotheism law of Judaism to support why one can't be a Christian; but that same law grouping also commands that you must believe in the Hebrew God.

 

[Further]

Which is why it can't be compatible with atheism. Thanks for clearing that up.

It all depends on who is making the determination. The Orthodox Jew would likely agree with you. But considering that being Jewish is not about belief but about action, then you can not actively believe in God and still be Jewish according to most.

There is a difference between not believing in God as that's something that is actively and openly debated in Judaism. I suggest you learn about the Talmud, it's purpose is to question everything always and try and learn and grow. But to believe in something that is defined as n not-jewish, that's different. If you think that's a double standard, fine. But that's how it is. I would say at least 20% of my congregation growing up did not believe in God. Not one of them believed in Jesus.