Republicans: Why are you voting for John McCain

[Dumpy]

He was offered the chance to be freed from the Hanoi Hilton because his family was able to pull strings. He refused so some of his fellow prisoners would be freed instead. He ended up being a POW for 5 years or so. It's selfless in a way that defines heroism.

That's the story as he likes to tell it, but my understanding is that it is just half-truths.

 

[CelticKing]

LOL no. I'm not just trying to come after you personally CelticKing, I've heard a lot of people echo the same sentiment towards McCain and I'm trying to understand that theory.

Hey that's alright buddy, it's all fun here.

McCain was a POW, did some great things in war, but does that make him a hero? John Kerry did some great things, and threw his medals "in an ocean somewhere". Think of all the troops who went through the same and worse than McCain. Maybe that makes them heroes, but does it make them qualified to be president.

And yes, please give me some links.

Not accepting to come back when they offered him that, it automatically made him a hero, simple as that, he was willing to rot in prison and not leave his buddies behind, if that's doesn't make you a hero I'm not sure what else does.

Also being a fighter pilot, that's an experience not many people in this world can brag about. Overall when you combine all the things he has done in his life, it has shaped him into a great candidate for the president, too bad the rest of America doesn't see this, since they already have blinders set in front of their eyes, with the help of the mainstream media.

 

[Jurassic]

Simply because he was a POW doesn't make him a "true hero." I'm sure it was a terrible experience, but it isn't relevant.

Yeah I agree, and that was my point. I don't want to belittle what he went through, but how is that a qualification to be president? Especially when, as I mentioned before, there are those like Kerry who go through these things and obviously don't value them. To the point of throwing away his war medals.

And CK, I admit I don't know much about his flight experience. But if what Dumpy is saying is true, McCain wasn't much of a pilot. I'll have to look it up myself of course, but how can someone who constantly crashes planes be considered a good or even acceptable pilot? None of that really matters to me too much though as far as the election.

 

[Shooter]

Simply because he was a POW doesn't make him a "true hero." I'm sure it was a terrible experience, but it isn't relevant.

Not relevant, eh? The guy fought and suffered for his country, was beaten almost to death, and can't even lift his arms above his shoulders or comb his hair because of what he went through, but he's not a "hero" in your book. Who's a "hero"? Some guy who catches touchdown passes or dunks a basketball? Get real.

 

[Denny Crane]

I agree that simply being a POW is no qualification to be president. Sitting on the various House and Senate military committees he was on do qualify him.

 

[Dumpy]

Not relevant, eh? The guy fought and suffered for his country, was beaten almost to death, and can't even lift his arms above his shoulders or comb his hair because of what he went through, but he's not a "hero" in your book. Who's a "hero"? Some guy who catches touchdown passes or dunks a basketball? Get real.

Oooh, personal attacks. Excellent.

Heros are made through intentional personal sacrifice for the sole benefit of others. Being a POW doesn't automatically make one a hero; what makes one a hero is the decisions one makes in the time leading up to becoming a POW. Once you are a POW, you lose your decision-making ability. From what I have read, I really question McCain's motivation and actions leading up to becoming a POW. It must have really sucked, but simply going through a bad experience doesn't make one a hero. Now if, he had allowed himself to be captured so that his fellow soldiers could escape--that would certainly qualify.

In the future, I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to read my mind and make up opinions for me. I'll let it go this time, and answer you. I don't consider athletes "heroes." I care very little for sports in general. The closest athlete I can think of to "hero"--other than obvious exceptions such as Moe Berg--would be Greg Louganis, for (a) speaking out about the way other kids treated him as a child; (b) having the courage to climb back up to the platform a day after nearly cracking his head open ("If I didn't go back up there, I'd be afraid the rest of my life," he said--and it is true in everything in life when we first fail at something); and (c) coming out of the closet without shame.

edit: to add to that, a true hero is someone who inspires others to act through his own courage or actions. Louganis was and is an inspiration to many. My personal heroes include people like Albert Einstein, and people who have worked tirelessly for the the benefit of society, without great compensation, such as the founder of CREW, which I've mentioned here before.

 

[Dumpy]

I agree that simply being a POW is no qualification to be president. Sitting on the various House and Senate military committees he was on do qualify him.

not to mention chairing the commerce committee.

 

[Tortimer]

Oooh, personal attacks. Excellent.

Heros are made through intentional personal sacrifice for the sole benefit of others. Being a POW doesn't automatically make one a hero; what makes one a hero is the decisions one makes in the time leading up to becoming a POW. Once you are a POW, you lose your decision-making ability. From what I have read, I really question McCain's motivation and actions leading up to becoming a POW. It must have really sucked, but simply going through a bad experience doesn't make one a hero. Now if, he had allowed himself to be captured so that his fellow soldiers could escape--that would certainly qualify.

In the future, I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to read my mind and make up opinions for me. I'll let it go this time, and answer you. I don't consider athletes "heroes." I care very little for sports in general. The closest athlete I can think of to "hero"--other than obvious exceptions such as Moe Berg--would be Greg Louganis, for (a) speaking out about the way other kids treated him as a child; (b) having the courage to climb back up to the platform a day after nearly cracking his head open ("If I didn't go back up there, I'd be afraid the rest of my life," he said--and it is true in everything in life when we first fail at something); and (c) coming out of the closet without shame.

That's not a personal attack he was just asking you if McCain isn't a hero to you then who is? What the heck are you talking about? I'm guessing if Obama had went through what McCain went through he would have been your hero but this isn't a personal attack!

 

[Dumpy]

That's not a personal attack he was just asking you if McCain isn't a hero to you then who is? What the heck are you talking about? I'm guessing if Obama had went through what McCain went through he would have been your hero but this isn't a personal attack!

why must everyone impute beliefs and opinions to me? Where have I even hinted that Obama would be my "hero" had he been a POW under the same circumstances as McCain?

 

[#1_War_Poet_ForLife]

why must everyone impute beliefs and opinions to me? Where have I even hinted that Obama would be my "hero" had he been a POW under the same circumstances as McCain?

It's this gross sense that everyone has partisan bias (mostly because the accusers are, in fact, biased).


BTW, CK only <3s McCain because of Kosovo.

 

[maxiep]

Heros are made through intentional personal sacrifice for the sole benefit of others.

What would you say about Sen. McCain's decision to remain a prisoner when he was offered to "cut the line" by the NVA because of his father?

Also, do you consider Barack Obama to be a hero?

 

[CelticKing]

It's this gross sense that everyone has partisan bias (mostly because the accusers do, are, in fact, biased).


BTW, CK only <3s McCain because of Kosovo.

Not just McCain, I love all of America for what they did for my country.

 

[Dumpy]

What would you say about Sen. McCain's decision to remain a prisoner when he was offered to "cut the line" by the NVA because of his father?

Also, do you consider Barack Obama to be a hero?

I guess I'm just skeptical that we've heard the entire story. At that point in his life, McCain was only interested in himself. Personal glory. Avoiding responsibility. He himself wrote that ON HIS OWN he offered to give the enemy information if they would take him to the hospital. I've heard that, had he accepted this "offer," he would have violated the rules of combat, would have had to admit to certain things on behalf of the U.S. Government, and quite possibly would have been court-martialled upon returning to the U.S. I don't know whether that is true or not, but given his background and history up until that point, I'm skeptical that he was really ready to do something heroic. It's hard to cite sources on this stuff without evoking reactions on how all the sources are biased, so let's just leave it at "I'm skeptical."

[p.s., there's nothing wrong with not being a hero. Not many people are. There's also nothing wrong with making mistakes when you're young. Everyone--well, most everyone--learns from their experiences and they make us who we are. Even if it is true that McCain cowardly ran away from the carnage on his ship when it was on fire, and hid while others were dying, as alleged in Rolling Stone, it wouldn't preclude him from the presidency. It just makes him not a hero.]

And on that point, no, I don't consider Obama to be a hero. Being a hero is not a prerequisite to being a candidate. In fact, if there was one person on the national ticket that I would consider a hero, it would be Biden. In my book, every dedicated single parent is a hero, because they willingly sacrifice a large part of their lives and ambitions for the sake of others. Clearly, Biden was a dedicated parent.

 

[Denny Crane]

I guess I'm just skeptical that we've heard the entire story. At that point in his life, McCain was only interested in himself. Personal glory. Avoiding responsibility. He himself wrote that ON HIS OWN he offered to give the enemy information if they would take him to the hospital. I've heard that, had he accepted this "offer," he would have violated the rules of combat, would have had to admit to certain things on behalf of the U.S. Government, and quite possibly would have been court-martialled upon returning to the U.S. I don't know whether that is true or not, but given his background and history up until that point, I'm skeptical that he was really ready to do something heroic. It's hard to cite sources on this stuff without evoking reactions on how all the sources are biased, so let's just leave it at "I'm skeptical."

[p.s., there's nothing wrong with not being a hero. Not many people are. There's also nothing wrong with making mistakes when you're young. Everyone--well, most everyone--learns from their experiences and they make us who we are. Even if it is true that McCain cowardly ran away from the carnage on his ship when it was on fire, and hid while others were dying, as alleged in Rolling Stone, it wouldn't preclude him from the presidency. It just makes him not a hero.]

And on that point, no, I don't consider Obama to be a hero. Being a hero is not a prerequisite to being a candidate. In fact, if there was one person on the national ticket that I would consider a hero, it would be Biden. In my book, every dedicated single parent is a hero, because they willingly sacrifice a large part of their lives and ambitions for the sake of others. Clearly, Biden was a dedicated parent.

Sounds like some swiftboating going on here.

 

[Minstrel]

Sounds like some swiftboating going on here.

A tactic you whole-heartedly endorsed when Bush/Rove were doing it to Kerry.

 

[Denny Crane]

A tactic you whole-heartedly endorsed when Bush/Rove were doing it to Kerry.

Go for it. I'm not being hypocritical like those who did complain but don't now.

 

[Minstrel]

Go for it. I'm not being hypocritical like those who did complain but don't now.

Complain about what? Obama is not doing it. I personally didn't object to posters in 2004 characterizing Kerry however they liked. I thought it was a dirty tactic by the Bush campaign, but I don't see Obama's campaign lining up veterans to lie (based on what they said decades ago) about McCain.

 

[Denny Crane]

Complain about what? Obama is not doing it. I personally didn't object to posters in 2004 characterizing Kerry however they liked. I thought it was a dirty tactic by the Bush campaign, but I don't see Obama's campaign lining up veterans to lie (based on what they said decades ago) about McCain.

Gen. Wesley Clark was the first.

The group that went after Kerry wasn't affiliated with the Bush campaign, it was a 527 group.

 

[Minstrel]

Gen. Wesley Clark was the first.

Shame on him, too, then.

The group that went after Kerry wasn't affiliated with the Bush campaign

Yes, that's the way Rove works. The "McCain fathered an illegitimate black baby" rumours also had supposedly unknown provenance. It was pretty clear to most people that Bush's campaign was the source.

 

[Denny Crane]

Shame on him, too, then.



Yes, that's the way Rove works. The "McCain fathered an illegitimate black baby" rumours also had supposedly unknown provenance. It was pretty clear to most people that Bush's campaign was the source.

That's the way Obama works. Swift Boat Veterans for Truth had gone after Kerry for 3 decades before his presidential run, and in all sorts of venues. I don't think Rove cared about them all that time to have somehow been the source of all that.

 

[Minstrel]

That's the way Obama works.

Not that I've seen. I've seen nothing in the media about McCain being a fairly poor soldier until this week and the Rolling Stone article.

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth had gone after Kerry for 3 decades before his presidential run, and in all sorts of venues.

Since Nixon organized them, yes. Rove dug them up and put them back into play.