Revisiting Iguodala

[Rastapopoulos]

If indeed Iguodala is available, because the Sixers are so sucky and he's overpaid for his current performance, then I would do this trade. Why? Because I'm STILL not a huge Webster fan, and having got a glimpse of Batum again, I'm thinking that his minutes will shrink rapidly pretty soon, so it's a sell high situation. Same for Bayless. In fact, with Rudy and Batum and Roy coming back, we're going to look pretty crowded pretty soon, so a three-for-one deal sounds good to me.

Of course, it would be better right now to get a big man, as Iggy would be competing for wing minutes with Roy, Batum and Rudy. BUT trading out Blake and Bayless would mean you could play Roy, Iggy and Rudy together when resting Miller, or go big with Roy, Iggy and Batum.

(Who's our PG of the future? It's split between Mills and Koponen.)

 

[craigehlo]

I'd do that trade in a second. Iggy is a clutch scorer that LaMarcus simply isn't. This team need more guys that can get to the FT line, and Iggy fits the bill. Plus we free up needed minutes for Rudy.

 

[SpanishFly]

I really like Iggy but we are stacked at the wings, we really need a PF/C, now maybe one is not available but IMO that is the what we should focus on.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Revisiting trades that are not going to happen.

Oh well, I suppose it's fun to speculate on such things.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Revisiting trades that are not going to happen.

You mean, like 99.99% of all suggested trades in forums? But isn't that what these forums are for?

Oh well, I suppose it's fun to speculate on such things.

Beats working!

Now, why isn't this likely to happen?
(a) because the Blazers wouldn't do it?
Maybe. But they'd be silly not to.
(b) because Philly wouldn't do it?
Much more likely. I honestly don't see Iguodala going anywhere just by himself. They want to offload salary, and he is overpaid, but he's probably their biggest asset (except perhaps for Thaddeus Young, but they've GOT to hang on to him, because he's cheap). They have other millstones they'd much rather shift, including Brand (who I'd be happy to take too, but it would mean a much bigger, EVEN LESS likely trade) and Dalembert (although, the whole Haiti thing - can they afford the bad pub in trading him now?) but who's going to take them?

(Perhaps the original trade would make more sense with Outlaw swapped in for Bayless, but I just can't bring myself to trade Outlaw, even in theory. He's like a big puppy.)

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I really like Iggy but we are stacked at the wings, we really need a PF/C, now maybe one is not available but IMO that is the what we should focus on.

You mean, like Elton Brand (who is looking much better these days, and certainly killed us both games)?

 

[Nikolokolus]

If you can figure out some way to wrangle Jrue Holiday from them, then you've got yourself a deal.

 

[MAS RipCity]

Trading Bayless would be a grave mistake and if we get a SF, I think it should be a vet who can mentor Batum, because Batum is going to be great.

 

[Minstrel]

I'd do the deal if it were Fernandez instead of Bayless. I think Bayless will be a better long-term fit as a starting guard alongside Roy, plus I think he's more talented.

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

I'd do the deal if it were Fernandez instead of Bayless. I think Bayless will be a better long-term fit as a starting guard alongside Roy, plus I think he's more talented.

This sounds about right....

 

[hasoos]

I have never liked Iggy as a player. The style of ball he plays leads to losses. I want the Blazers second scorer, to be a guy who scores in the paint, not a SF type.

 

[EGame]

I am in agreement with those who would rather try and deal Rudy first over Bayless. Bayless, other than Roy and Miller to an extent, is the one guy who can consistently put pressure on defenses and get to the rim in the mold of Parker. Bayless is not near the shooter Rudy is, however, we have great shoooting coaches who seem to improve those who aren't great, into at least consistently decent. Roy springs to mind when he was in college as he was not the greatest of shooters, but ever since he has been here he is one of the better shooters and has improved the 3 ball a lot. I think Bayless (who ironically was considered a good shooter coming out of college) can improve in this area over time, give him 1 more year, at least. Rudy on the other hand, is mainly a shooter who gets to the rim every now and then, but not near enough as I thought he would have after watching him in the Olympics. We have a lot of shooters already and it doesn't help he will always be Roy's backup whereas Bayless can play the 1.

With that said, with Webster's recent play and the return of Batum I don't think SF is much of a need right now. I would rather try and get someone like Bosh if we want to try and get a star, but I don't know if Toronto is willing to deal him currently.

 

[MAS RipCity]

Agreed. We shouldn't be looking for another "3rd star" caliber of player. Roy needs another superstar alongside of him and there are two potentially available in Bosh and Amare. The sad thing is, LaMarcus has the talent to do so, but I am beginning to question why it seems like he is regressing this year.
Would LA and Rudy be enough for STAT or CB4? Would there be any way to guarantee they would re-sign with us?
If for some reason we did that deal and the player we got walked, wouldn't that bring us below the cap with Miles, Blake, Outlaw, LA, Rudy and potentially Joel off of the books?

 

[EGame]

If Phoenix or Toronto are in dire need of trading Amare or Bosh because they know they won't resign than perhaps that would be of good value to them, depending on what other offers are on the table. I also think including Blake and Outlaw's expirings (and in some cases a team may value you Outlaw when healthy) are good to throw in there. I don't know what will work as far as salary cap wise, but I think that would be good IF the two teams feel they have to trade there player to try and get at least something in return. I am wondering with Bayless' recent play if they may want him over Rudy which I would be reluctant to do, but may end up doing if I can get a guarantee that they will resign with us. But I would try and use Rudy first and foremost along with Aldridge.

I just don't see KP ever trading Aldridge, or Rudy, or Bayless, heck, who am I kidding, this is all hypothetical and will never come true even if both are on the table.

 

[MAS RipCity]

Here are a couple of Bosh Trades I got to work:
Bosh1
Bosh2

Amare is more difficult, because he makes more:
Amare1
Amare2

I really hate the thought of giving up Joel, but man, I'm not sure he'll ever be the same after his injruy.
Also, picks can be added to either side to make whatever fair.

 

[EGame]

Whoa, I just looked at that first trade for Bosh, and it suggests he is good for -19 wins? F that, scrap getting Bosh!

 

[MAS RipCity]

No, we are +4, Raps are -19 after the trade

 

[Rastapopoulos]

The ONLY reason for including Rudy rather than Bayless would be if we were convinced Rudy would leave otherwise. Rudy is so much more of a basketball player than Mr. "Stumpier Corey Maggette" it's not funny.

 

[EGame]

Terrible assessment, actually.

 

[Nikolokolus]

The ONLY reason for including Rudy rather than Bayless would be if we were convinced Rudy would leave otherwise. Rudy is so much more of a basketball player than Mr. "Stumpier Corey Maggette" it's not funny.

I agree. Your analysis isn't funny.

 

[LittleAlex]

I don't like Iguodala for Portland but only because he makes WAY too much money. If he concentrated on lock down defense and was willing to be the second or third option the team and cut his salary in half then it would be great. I just don't see any of those things happening.

As for your assessment of Rudy vs. Bayless I think you are really selling Bayless way short. He may be a strong guy who gets to the line like Maggette but he also plays defense (the next time Maggette plays good D will be the first) and Bayless will pass the ball (Maggette doesn't).

Bayless may not be as complete a basketball player as Rudy is but he isn't the steaming pile of crap that Maggette is.

 

[Mediocre Man]

If it was explained already, I am sorry I missed, but................Why exactly does Philly make that trade?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Bayless may not be as complete a basketball player as Rudy is but he isn't the steaming pile of crap that Maggette is.

That's fair. Of course, a lot of people love the fact that Maggette is an efficient scorer who is always among the league leaders in shooting FTs... and ignore the pile of crap part.

But let's be honest: there are lots of facets to being a good basketball player, and Rudy surpasses Bayless in the majority.

Skill: player who's better
3 point shooting: Rudy
Passing: Rudy
Post Feeding: Rudy (he was our best player overall at this last year)
Court awareness (and general BBall IQ): Rudy
Ball-handling: Bayless (although Rudy knows his limits, and I haven't seen him dribble the ball out of bounds off his foot, like Bayless)
Getting fouled: Bayless
Defense: Bayless tries hard, but is pretty clueless (and stumpy-armed), Rudy is sneaky but easily pushed around. Both are non-ideal, but at least...
Steals: Rudy (this is something Rudy has really excelled at this year)
Clutchness: Rudy
Big-time international experience: Rudy
Hops: probably Bayless, but Rudy's no slouch
Hair highlights: Rudy
Designer stubble: Rudy
the list just goes on.

 

[Nikolokolus]

If it was explained already, I am sorry I missed, but................Why exactly does Philly make that trade?

I guess it would be a pure salary dump and getting a moderately useful and young prospect back. Frankly I have a hard time believing that this is the best offer they'd get for Iggy, especially since they're still over the soft cap after it's all over with.

 

[Nikolokolus]

That's fair. Of course, a lot of people love the fact that Maggette is an efficient scorer who is always among the league leaders in shooting FTs... and ignore the pile of crap part.

But let's be honest: there are lots of facets to being a good basketball player, and Rudy surpasses Bayless in the majority.

Skill: player who's better
3 point shooting: Rudy
Passing: Rudy
Post Feeding: Rudy (he was our best player overall at this last year)
Court awareness (and general BBall IQ): Rudy
Ball-handling: Bayless (although Rudy knows his limits, and I haven't seen him dribble the ball out of bounds off his foot, like Bayless)
Getting fouled: Bayless
Steals: Rudy (this is something Rudy has really excelled at this year)
Clutchness: Rudy
Big-time international experience: Rudy
Hops: probably Bayless, but Rudy's no slouch
Hair highlights: Rudy
Designer stubble: Rudy
the list just goes on.

You've disliked Bayless since he was drafted, why would we expect anything less now?

Facts: Bayless has a higher assist rate, a lower turnover rate, a nearly identical true shooting percentage, better handles, better man defense and has the raw physical tools to guard point guards, which is something that Rudy will never have.

But you're right, Rudy's stubble > Jerryd's manicured eyebrows.

 

[EGame]

Big-time international experience? Man Bayless sure had a chance in that one. Also, Rudy may be clutch (although he really isn't all that clutch) more than Bayless, but I'm willing to give this to Bayless over time. This is essentially his first season and he has hit big shots as well (just seems to choke at the free throw line).

 

[Minstrel]

But let's be honest: there are lots of facets to being a good basketball player, and Rudy surpasses Bayless in the majority.

Skill: player who's better
3 point shooting: Rudy
Passing: Rudy
Post Feeding: Rudy (he was our best player overall at this last year)
Court awareness (and general BBall IQ): Rudy
Ball-handling: Bayless (although Rudy knows his limits, and I haven't seen him dribble the ball out of bounds off his foot, like Bayless)
Getting fouled: Bayless
Defense: Bayless tries hard, but is pretty clueless (and stumpy-armed), Rudy is sneaky but easily pushed around. Both are non-ideal, but at least...
Steals: Rudy (this is something Rudy has really excelled at this year)
Clutchness: Rudy
Big-time international experience: Rudy
Hops: probably Bayless, but Rudy's no slouch
Hair highlights: Rudy
Designer stubble: Rudy
the list just goes on.

Interesting. Let's try this exercise with some different players. Prime Shaquille O'Neal and prime Allen Iverson.

Skill: player who's better
3 point shooting: Iverson
Passing: Iverson
Post Feeding: Iverson
Post Scoring: Shaq
Court awareness (and general BBall IQ): Iverson
Ball-handling: Iverson
Defense: Both are non-ideal, but at least...
Steals: Iverson
Blocks: Shaq
Clutchness: Iverson (he's hit more game-winners, I believe, than Shaq, plus his free throw shooting close-and-late is much better)
General excitement: Iverson
the list just goes on.

So, hmm...a scientific proof that Iverson was a superior player to Shaq. He "wins" many more categories. The Lakers probably would have won more championships with Iverson instead of Shaq. After all, every arbitrary "facet of the game" is equally valuable and should be given equal weight.

Ultimately, it's about effectiveness, not breadth of skills. Shaq had a few skills (post scoring, rebounding, help defense) and those were so overwhelming that he didn't need anything else to be one of the most impactful players in the game. Many, many perimeter players had "more" skills, but they didn't add up to anywhere close to the same total effectiveness.

So, the exercise is really pretty meaningless in determining who the better player is.

Rudy, despite his court awareness, passing ability and three-point shooting skill, is simply not that effective. He has a fatal flaw to his game, the inability to handle the ball well (by NBA standards). That weakens the effectiveness of all his other tools. Being a stand-still three-point shooter has only limited application. Being a stand-still passer is even worse...great play-makers have to be able to dribble, force the defense to react and then pass to exploit that defensive reaction. Rudy can't do that.

Bayless has less natural passing talent/flair than Rudy, but his superior ability to handle the ball gives him equal or better potential as a play-maker for others. He's already a more dangerous and effective scorer, because he can create his own shot. Rudy can't (the limitation of being stand-still shooter). And while neither is ideal on defense, right now, Bayless has the better lateral quickness and strength, giving him the chance to be an average or plus defender in the future. I don't think Rudy will ever be anything but a liability in man defense, though he does provide some value in team defense with his ability to generate steals.

 

[LittleAlex]

That's fair. Of course, a lot of people love the fact that Maggette is an efficient scorer who is always among the league leaders in shooting FTs... and ignore the pile of crap part.

But let's be honest: there are lots of facets to being a good basketball player, and Rudy surpasses Bayless in the majority.

Skill: player who's better
3 point shooting: Rudy
Passing: Rudy
Post Feeding: Rudy (he was our best player overall at this last year)
Court awareness (and general BBall IQ): Rudy
Ball-handling: Bayless (although Rudy knows his limits, and I haven't seen him dribble the ball out of bounds off his foot, like Bayless)
Getting fouled: Bayless
Defense: Bayless tries hard, but is pretty clueless (and stumpy-armed), Rudy is sneaky but easily pushed around. Both are non-ideal, but at least...
Steals: Rudy (this is something Rudy has really excelled at this year)
Clutchness: Rudy
Big-time international experience: Rudy
Hops: probably Bayless, but Rudy's no slouch
Hair highlights: Rudy
Designer stubble: Rudy
the list just goes on.

I wouldn't disagree with the idea that Rudy is a more complete player. However, I do believe Bayless is better then Rudy at two crucial things that Portland needs very badly: On the ball defense and attacking the rim. Rudy is a better shooter, passer, off the ball defender etc..

My preference, keep them both and use a three guard rotation of Rudy, Roy and Bayless.