Rick Kamla Just Said...

[PapaG]

How many Nets games have you guys actually watched this season which give you the "knowledge" you have about Lopez?

He's showing no signs of "reaching his ceiling". He has improved a LOT since the beginning of the season. He's a good defender and a good, very efficient scorer. He has a long range jumpshot which is MONEY, something Oden will never have. He's also dominant under the basket...go check how many players he has viciously dunked on this season.

Oden is not better than Lopez at this point. I have no idea how good either of them will be in 3 years, but saying that Oden is better than Lopez at this point is ridiculous. Hollinger just picked Lopez as his ROY. He's having a stellar season. The fact that he's playing in the weaker conference doesn't make a difference when it comes to how well he's been playing. He does very well against the best of big men, including his idol, Tim Duncan, and he gets less touches than any other ROY candidate.

I've posted before about Lopez having a better season than Oden, but I will argue that the only part of Lopez's game that is significantly better than Oden's is his offensive repertoire. As you pointed out, Lopez is a leader for ROY, but the fact remains he plays in the East and is on a team that may not make the playoffs yet starts Devin Harris and Vince Carter.

 

[Minstrel]

Hollinger just picked Lopez as his ROY.

Lopez would be my pick, too. The point, however, is that Lopez has been of higher value because he's played many more minutes. That's legitimate and that's why he should be ROY. Hollinger's rating system, however, shows that Oden has been equivalent or slightly better than Lopez when he's on the floor. In addition, I'd probably take Oden's defense over Lopez's defense. Oden's foul troubles are the only reason I'm uncertain.

So, in terms of value this year, it's Lopez in a walk. But in terms of actual ability on the court, I'd definitely pick Oden. Hollinger's numbers support my opinion, though it's not absolute proof.

 

[kobimel]

I've posted before about Lopez having a better season than Oden, but I will argue that the only part of Lopez's game that is significantly better than Oden's is his offensive repertoire. As you pointed out, Lopez is a leader for ROY, but the fact remains he plays in the East and is on a team that may not make the playoffs yet starts Devin Harris and Vince Carter.

I never said Lopez's defense was better...Oden has that edge. He has the rebounding edge as well. But overall, Lopez is above him at this point. Yes, he plays in the East, but he's putting up his stats as a 3rd option, unlike Mayo, Rose and Westbrook. The Nets not making the playoffs has nothing to do with Lopez...he's not supposed to be leading them into the playoffs. Nobody expects that from him. The Nets, as a team, are horrible defensively, Yi has been a bust so far and Carter's play has significantly dropped since December. They're simply not a good team, and that's why they're battling for the 8th seed.

 

[kobimel]

Lopez would be my pick, too. The point, however, is that Lopez has been of higher value because he's played many more minutes. That's legitimate and that's why he should be ROY. Hollinger's rating system, however, shows that Oden has been equivalent or slightly better than Lopez when he's on the floor. In addition, I'd probably take Oden's defense over Lopez's defense. Oden's foul troubles are the only reason I'm uncertain.

So, in terms of value this year, it's Lopez in a walk. But in terms of actual ability on the court, I'd definitely pick Oden. Hollinger's numbers support my opinion, though it's not absolute proof.

I'm not a fan of PER, but both players do have a big impact on the game as far as I can see. In terms of production, Lopez has supplied more. His offense is more developed than Oden's right now, and though Oden has the defensive edge and always will, Lopez's defense is solid. No complaints there.

 

[rocketeer]

Oden is not better than Lopez at this point. I have no idea how good either of them will be in 3 years, but saying that Oden is better than Lopez at this point is ridiculous. Hollinger just picked Lopez as his ROY. He's having a stellar season. The fact that he's playing in the weaker conference doesn't make a difference when it comes to how well he's been playing. He does very well against the best of big men, including his idol, Tim Duncan, and he gets less touches than any other ROY candidate.

lopez has had a better season than greg oden. he's done so by playing in more games and more minutes per game even though he's not quite as effective as oden when oden does play. but as lopez has played something like 875 more minutes this season than oden, obviously that is a large factor in determining who has had the better year.

it's entirely possible for one player(oden) to have proven that he is a better player than another player(lopez) even though the 2nd guy has had the better season(due to being on the court a lot more).

 

[Minstrel]

I'm not a fan of PER, but both players do have a big impact on the game as far as I can see. In terms of production, Lopez has supplied more.

If you mean raw production, for the season, I agree completely. Per-minute, I don't. Oden has one of the best Rebound Rates in the game and a much higher scoring efficiency. The only reason Oden isn't "fulfilling the hype" are fouls, really. He isn't staying on the court long enough. If he played proper starter minutes, his numbers would be great for a rookie center. Even as is, he leads all rookies in double-doubles.

His offense is more developed than Oden's right now, and though Oden has the defensive edge and always will, Lopez's defense is solid. No complaints there.

I agree that Lopez's offense is more developed right now. Oden draws more double-teams in the post, though.

I think Lopez is a really good player. As I said, I think he should be ROY. I think Oden is the better talent, but I think Lopez will make All-Star games.

 

[PapaG]

I never said Lopez's defense was better...Oden has that edge. He has the rebounding edge as well. But overall, Lopez is above him at this point. Yes, he plays in the East, but he's putting up his stats as a 3rd option, unlike Mayo, Rose and Westbrook. The Nets not making the playoffs has nothing to do with Lopez...he's not supposed to be leading them into the playoffs. Nobody expects that from him. The Nets, as a team, are horrible defensively, Yi has been a bust so far and Carter's play has significantly dropped since December. They're simply not a good team, and that's why they're battling for the 8th seed.

Understand that I am not diminishing or criticizing Brook Lopez at all. I don't know the future, so I won't speculate on who will be better in three years. I also think that Brook Lopez has had a very good rookie season and looks like a future All-Star in the East at center.

He is a very bright spot, along with Harris, in what appears to be a bad year for the Nets. Now, if the GM would have just dumped Vince Carter and given the Nets a ton of cap space this summer...

 

[kobimel]

Understand that I am not diminishing or criticizing Brook Lopez at all. I don't know the future, so I won't speculate on who will be better in three years. I also think that Brook Lopez has had a very good rookie season and looks like a future All-Star in the East at center.

He is a very bright spot, along with Harris, in what appears to be a bad year for the Nets. Now, if the GM would have just dumped Vince Carter and given the Nets a ton of cap space this summer...

I understand, and I agree. The Nets just didn't get any decent offers for Carter, I guess. There's always next season to trade him...the owner is too cheap to have picked up any major FAs in the summer anyway.

If you mean raw production, for the season, I agree completely. Per-minute, I don't. Oden has one of the best Rebound Rates in the game and a much higher scoring efficiency. The only reason Oden isn't "fulfilling the hype" are fouls, really. He isn't staying on the court long enough. If he played proper starter minutes, his numbers would be great for a rookie center. Even as is, he leads all rookies in double-doubles.



I agree that Lopez's offense is more developed right now. Oden draws more double-teams in the post, though.

I think Lopez is a really good player. As I said, I think he should be ROY. I think Oden is the better talent, but I think Lopez will make All-Star games.

I haven't watched Oden, so I don't know how many double-teams he attracts but I'll take your word on that. He's a more dominant paint player than Lopez, but luckily for Lopez he has a sweet outside shot as well.

I agree that Oden has the higher ceiling between the two, but fouls shouldn't be an excuse for him. If he fouls too much, that's a problem. Same problem with Yi for the Nets.

 

[Minstrel]

but fouls shouldn't be an excuse for him. If he fouls too much, that's a problem.

I agree. That's why he's not ROY, because he can't stay on the floor due to fouls, which is his fault. But fouling is a problem many young big men have and figure out, so that's a better problem to have, going forward, then not being able to play very well. Oden can play well...as soon as he figures out how to avoid fouls, his play will translate into impressive per-game numbers.

 

[Masbee]

How many Nets games have you guys actually watched this season which give you the "knowledge" you have about Lopez?

He's showing no signs of "reaching his ceiling". He has improved a LOT since the beginning of the season.

Good. For your sake as a fan, you should invest a lot of hope that he improves. Because even though he is ROY candidate caliber, and you have two All-Star guards, the team, somehow, can't win many games.

It isn't Lopez's fault as he is a good rookie big man. But if he were a great rookie big man, he would be having more impact and there would be more wins.

I didn't say that Lopez wouldn't improve, just that he seems like the type that doesn't end up improving all that much. The future will tell all.

He's a good defender

And Oden is a better defender.

and a good, very efficient scorer.

And Oden is a more effecient scorer.

He has a long range jumpshot which is MONEY, something Oden will never have.

And something the Blazers hopes he never, never, never develops. We want his ass planted in the paint. We are a team FULL of jump shooters - Roy, Rudy, Blake, Outlaw. Even LaMarcus is mostly a jump shooting Power Forward. Thus Oden is a good match for LaMarcus. If the Blazers were to draw up their dream Center, but had to leave out one primary skill - it would be a long-range jumpshot.

He's also dominant under the basket...go check how many players he has viciously dunked on this season.

I am a little confused how a player can be "money" with a long-range jumpshot, and yet "dominate" the paint. But, nevermind. Oden is far more dominant in the paint than Lopez - offensively, drawing regular double teams, drawing fouls (5.6 fta's per 36 min compared to 2.6 for Brook) and lots of dunks (28% of shots are dunks, for Lopez 17% of shots are dunks). Defensively, he dominates as well, scaring teams out of the paint and having a better Defensive Rating than Brook (105 to 108).

Oden also dominates with his rebounding. Total rebound percentage of 20%, to 16% for Lopez. That is 25% more rebounds. Pretty significant difference.

Oden is not better than Lopez at this point.

On a games played and/or minutes played basis, Oden is better already. Really. It's true.

 

[kobimel]

Good. For your sake as a fan, you should invest a lot of hope that he improves. Because even though he is ROY candidate caliber, and you have two All-Star guards, the team, somehow, can't win many games.

It isn't Lopez's fault as he is a good rookie big man. But if he were a great rookie big man, he would be having more impact and there would be more wins.

Of course I hope he improves. Why would I not? Even if the Nets were winning 70 games this year I would hope that he becomes an all-star big man.

If Lopez isn't a "great" rookie big man, I guess only the legendary (Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, etc.) are. Because he's already arguably a top 10 center in the league.

Oh, and to clear things up: the Nets do NOT have two all-star guards. They have one all-star guard, and one good guard who plays like an all-star sometimes and like garbage other times (it's been the latter lately). Other than them and Lopez, all they have is decent vets and youngsters. How many games would you expect a team like that to win? As a third option, there's a limit to how much Lopez can affect the team.

I didn't say that Lopez wouldn't improve, just that he seems like the type that doesn't end up improving all that much. The future will tell all.

I still don't see what makes you think he's the "type" that doesn't end up improving much. Care to elaborate?

And Oden is a better defender.

I already said he was. Read before you criticize.

And Oden is a more effecient scorer.

Lopez is a very efficient scorer, while still shooting from long range. That's something that you can't say about Oden. Sure, he's more efficient, but that doesn't mean much when all his points are in the paint and Lopez's aren't.

And something the Blazers hopes he never, never, never develops. We want his ass planted in the paint. We are a team FULL of jump shooters - Roy, Rudy, Blake, Outlaw. Even LaMarcus is mostly a jump shooting Power Forward. Thus Oden is a good match for LaMarcus. If the Blazers were to draw up their dream Center, but had to leave out one primary skill - it would be a long-range jumpshot.

I never said Oden should be a good jumpshooter. I just said that's something that Lopez has and Oden doesn't, which goes in his favor, no matter what the Blazers need from Oden.

I am a little confused how a player can be "money" with a long-range jumpshot, and yet "dominate" the paint. But, nevermind. Oden is far more dominant in the paint than Lopez - offensively, drawing regular double teams, drawing fouls (5.6 fta's per 36 min compared to 2.6 for Brook) and lots of dunks (28% of shots are dunks, for Lopez 17% of shots are dunks). Defensively, he dominates as well, scaring teams out of the paint and having a better Defensive Rating than Brook (105 to 108).

Again, I've already said he's more dominant than Lopez. And why can't Lopez have a good jump shot while still having good post moves? Is that illegal? Does no player in the world have that kind of arsenal? He spends most of his time in the paint, but can step back and shoot a jump shot as well, which he usually scores. Again, I've already said Oden is better defensively and that I'll believe that he attracts more double teams. What exactly are you arguing about that for?

Oden also dominates with his rebounding. Total rebound percentage of 20%, to 16% for Lopez. That is 25% more rebounds. Pretty significant difference.

You know what, you've brought me to a point where I can just conclude that you simply quoted parts of my last post before and didn't actually read this thread. I've already said Oden is a better rebounder. Geez.

On a games played and/or minutes played basis, Oden is better already. Really. It's true.

Oden has injury problems and foul problems; those are HIS problems. Lopez doesn't, so he plays more minutes. That's an advantage, and it's certainly not easy as a rookie big man to stay out of foul trouble...which Minstrel already said...so that's in Lopez's favor as well. Lopez is a ROY candidate for a reason. He has been instrumental for the Nets, exceeding ALL expectations. I can confidently say that I would prefer to have Lopez on my team this past season than Oden.

It's a shame that such great discussion between fans of two different teams can be ruined by one poster who doesn't seem to even read the thread, or chooses to ignore previous posts, and states his opinion as a fact. That's why many posters are turned off by the Blazers board. Anyway, it's been fun chatting with you, PapaG, Minstrel and rocketeer. Enjoy the game.

 

[Wheels]

There is a reason Kamla is on nbatv and not TNT.

 

[Deebag]

Yeah, big men that can shoot is a hugely overrated aspect of the game. Big men aren't coveted because their jumpshots can spread the floor. They're special because their height makes it ridiculously easy to score inside and makes them tall goalies of the rim.

With that said, the only jumper I've seen Oden take all year went in. I know he's been practicing his jumper and FT's a lot during rehab where he couldn't use his feet much so I'm sure he won't be as bad as Shaq in that department.