Romney possible federal felony.

[huevonkiller]

Go back and read your post. That's not at all what your claim was and you've been outed.

So what I win anyway. Most Economists don't want to raise minimum wage, and you want $40 an hour.

Psycho.

 

[huevonkiller]

Ultimately they will be forced to invade gated communities and dine on the fatty flesh of the idle rich.

Scary, no wonder the US is fucked.

 

[huevonkiller]

Speaking of moving... where will everyone making $2.50 an hour move to when we get rid of minimum wage? And don't say college dorms because I doubt they get in; remember these are high school dropouts. Maybe we feed the poor to the hungry? Solves that problem. Next!

Lol he doesn't give a shit about highschool dropouts, clearly.

 

[MARIS61]

Spain has a great healthcare system, if you have a job.

Unfortunately Spain's unemployment rate of 20+% rapes your point.

20% UNEMPLOYMENT?!

But you just said we should run our economy like Spain's!

Luckily, even the unemployed get great healthcare in Spain, while hardworking Americans die from the lack of it.

 

[MARIS61]

Lol he doesn't give a shit about highschool dropouts, clearly.

Again with the reading difficulties. I'm pretty sure he's asking you, not me.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

Ultimately they will be forced to invade gated communities and dine on the fatty flesh of the idle rich.

Mmm... salted long pork...

 

[MARIS61]

So what I win anyway.

Yes, you get a Certificate of Participation.

 

[MARIS61]

Later.

Some of us work for a living.

 

[huevonkiller]

20% UNEMPLOYMENT?!

But you just said we should run our economy like Spain's!

Luckily, even the unemployed get great healthcare in Spain, while hardworking Americans die from the lack of it.

I didn't give Spain any compliment, I said Spain proved you wrong.

Also it is not possible to get healthcare benefits, when companies refuse to hire you in the first place, genius.

And the fact you want to run our nation like broke Euro-zone nations is disturbing.

 

[huevonkiller]

Again with the reading difficulties. I'm pretty sure he's asking you, not me.

His post doesn't make sense if it is meant for me, since rich people were the ones I was referring to.

Bad reading comprehension on his part, oh and you think I like Spain for some reason. You're weird.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

You're not going to pay high school dropouts 20 dollars an hour, that's the largest reason.

That's what I was responding to. I was turning your "omg! billionaires will flee!" argument into a "and what about the riots when we tell the poor to eat cake when they can't get bread?". It's called a reversal.

 

[huevonkiller]

Yes, you get a Certificate of Participation.

1. You were wrong about Free trade.
2. You were wrong about government debt levels
3. You were wrong about minimum wage by a whole lot more
4. My book has various studies, not just one.

Your arguments are weak, and you seem Xenophobic. And you didn't know Spain was that unemployable.

 

[huevonkiller]

That's what I was responding to. I was turning your "omg! billionaires will flee!" argument into a "and what about the riots when we tell the poor to eat cake when they can't get bread?". It's called a reversal.

I see but your comment would be even more valid, if it was aimed at Maris. Since what I said so far is relatively normal in comparison.

Making 2.50 an hour is great if you're a homeless man with no skills.

 

[huevonkiller]

Later.

Some of us work for a living.

Get a loan and stop bitching.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

I see but your comment would be even more valid, if it was aimed at Maris. Since what I said so far is relatively normal in comparison.

Making 2.50 an hour is great if you're a homeless man with no skills.

Which there will be a lot more of once the minimum wage drops fro $8 to $2.50.

EDIT: bolded the part I was referencing, just in case.

 

[huevonkiller]

Which there will be a lot more of once the minimum wage drops fro $8 to $2.50.

EDIT: bolded the part I was referencing, just in case.

Incorrect, because 95% of employees already make more than the minimum wage. Why don't more people get paid minimum wage then?

Your paranoia and hysteria aren't valid, and most economists agree that raising it would be harmful. Almost half want it eliminated completely.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

Incorrect, because 95% of employees already make more than the minimum wage. Why don't more people get paid minimum wage then?

Your paranoia and hysteria aren't valid, and most economists agree that raising it would be harmful. Almost half want it eliminated completely.

It's good to feel invalidated.

Here's the thing, though: the people affected by a change in minimum wage are the people earning minimum wage. (or less):

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2011.htm

3.8 million people earn minimum wage or less (because of tips). Every single one of them will be neutrally or negatively affected by a drop in minimum wage. Either the wage stays the same and is no longer minimum wage ("woo! wait...") or it will go down slightly ("it's still above minimum wage, and Janice here will take the job if you don't... competitive pressures and all that rot.") as people more desperate to work take the job. The number of workers won't go up; why should it if it hasn't so far? It's just that everyone in that 3.8 million will earn a little less, and profits will go up a bit.

Yay business.

 

[huevonkiller]

It's good to feel invalidated.

Here's the thing, though: the people affected by a change in minimum wage are the people earning minimum wage. (or less):

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2011.htm

3.8 million people earn minimum wage or less (because of tips). Every single one of them will be neutrally or negatively affected by a drop in minimum wage. Either the wage stays the same and is no longer minimum wage ("woo! wait...") or it will go down slightly ("it's still above minimum wage, and Janice here will take the job if you don't... competitive pressures and all that rot.") as people more desperate to work take the job. The number of workers won't go up; why should it if it hasn't so far? It's just that everyone in that 3.8 million will earn a little less, and profits will go up a bit.

Yay business.

Glad you agree, mostly at least.

Anyway the people most helped by no minimum wage, are the people who are not in the labor force.

Yes people like my family members who came here with nothing will be hurt, but that homeless guy off the street won't be. And as someone that came from a lower income family (we're ok now), all this complaining from Maris is sickening.

He doesn't know what a real ghetto is like and most people consider lower income Americans to be rich.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

How will they be helped? You can't fit any more people on the McDonalds food line; it's made for N workers an hour; hiring more would be inefficient, even if wages were cut in half so that two people made $3.75 instead of one making $7.50. Profit doesn't increase, which doesn't help a publicly traded company. More likely, the wages go down, the same number of people work, and profits get a nice little jolt in the butt that quarter.

The sorts of businesses that could absorb personnel increases aren't really in the wheelhouse of minimum wage workers.

Lowering minimum wage might allow farms that use illegal migrant workers to hire legal workers instead, but you're still stuck with the same number of unemployed.

 

[huevonkiller]

How will they be helped? You can't fit any more people on the McDonalds food line; it's made for N workers an hour; hiring more would be inefficient, even if wages were cut in half so that two people made $3.75 instead of one making $7.50. Profit doesn't increase, which doesn't help a publicly traded company. More likely, the wages go down, the same number of people work, and profits get a nice little jolt in the butt that quarter.

The sorts of businesses that could absorb personnel increases aren't really in the wheelhouse of minimum wage workers.

Lowering minimum wage might allow farms that use illegal migrant workers to hire legal workers instead, but you're still stuck with the same number of unemployed.

It isn't that complex, you'll trade a 7.50 an hour worker for two 3 dollar an hour teenagers, or something like that.

It is similar to why companies move overseas and hire foreign Chinese workers. They are willing to work for less and I'll have a larger labor pool.

The point is I intentionally do NOT want to help you, I want to help the outsiders that have nothing.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

It isn't that complex, you'll trade a 7.50 an hour worker for two 3 dollar an hour teenagers, or something like that.

What I'm suggesting isn't complex either; I'm saying businesses will take full advantage of the lack of minimum wage, *and also* not hire any more workers. Why should then when they were doing fine before? And by *not* hiring and also lowering wages, they get that jolt in profits they'd been after...

...but what happens to the economy when the demand part of the supply/demand equation suddenly has a little less money overall? And you can't jolt those guys with tax cuts because they're paying nothing as it is.

3.8 million people will make a little less money. That's that only change I see.

 

[huevonkiller]

What I'm suggesting isn't complex either; I'm saying businesses will take full advantage of the lack of minimum wage, *and also* not hire any more workers.

They *wouldn't* be taking full advantage then, if they don't hire more workers.

They could be hurting their businesses probably.

Why should then when they were doing fine before? And by *not* hiring and also lowering wages, they get that jolt in profits they'd been after...

...but what happens to the economy when the demand part of the supply/demand equation suddenly has a little less money overall? And you can't jolt those guys with tax cuts because they're paying nothing as it is.

3.8 million people will make a little less money. That's that only change I see.

What happens when any industry decides to pay their workers less? Their products are cheaper. If American Airlines didn't have to pay half a billion dollars more in labor fees, they could sell their services at a discounted rate and wouldn't be broke.

The reason I WANT products to be made in other countries is because they are a lot cheaper.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

They *wouldn't* be taking full advantage then, if they don't hire more workers.

They could be hurting their businesses probably.

How would increasing profit/expense ratio be hurting their business? They aren't. They're just paying less for the same amount of work. If they drop wages 20% among the minimum wage workers because the artificial floor is gone, they're saving 20% on expenses for those workers, which is pure profit.

What happens when any industry decides to pay their workers less? Their products are cheaper.

Their products *could* be cheaper, or their gross margins *could* increase. Most company board rooms would choose the latter, and not even blink.

If American Airlines didn't have to pay half a billion dollars more in labor fees, they could sell their services at a discounted rate and wouldn't be broke.

The reason I WANT products to be made in other countries is because they are a lot cheaper.

There's a lot of research that says labor is actually only a small part of the cost in the products made overseas; the biggest costs are the components, and transport of those components to the factory. Supply chain is best when physically short. If the suppliers of screws, microchips, aluminum smelting, LCDs, etc, are all within 10 miles of the iPad plant, cost effectiveness is mostly coming from the supply chain, not the wages of the workers. Need to change a part? No problem; the other supplier is a block away.

Why does Foxconn work people 60-80 hours a week instead of just hiring more workers? Overhead: training, dorms, food, "benefits", etc. It's cheaper to work one person twice as hard than to hire two people to do the same work.

Business doesn't want to help the poor or the homeless: giving them concessions they ask for with the faith that they'll suddenly change their mind is not going to help the people already making minimum wage, and it's also not going to help the unemployed.

The Great Depression was a long time ago, so I don't doubt the lessons of pre-minimum wage America have been mostly lost.

 

[maxiep]

Bottom line, if you increase the minimum wage, it flows through to the purchaser. Wages for some rise, but prices for everyone rise, making dollars worth less. It's an inflationary tactic with little to no salutive effect. In fact, it's a guarantee of higher unemployment.

 

[huevonkiller]

How would increasing profit/expense ratio be hurting their business? They aren't.

Companies hire workers based on the marginal revenue product that they add. Each additional worker brings a potential addition to revenue.

Companies, major ones, want to expand and increase their influence.

They're just paying less for the same amount of work. If they drop wages 20% among the minimum wage workers because the artificial floor is gone, they're saving 20% on expenses for those workers, which is pure profit.

Prices are always lower without a minimum wage, MW is a negative externality that causes a dead weight loss in the market.

Their products *could* be cheaper, or their gross margins *could* increase. Most company board rooms would choose the latter, and not even blink.

Unfortunately your theory isn't really accurate.

They could also build a brand new factory without spending more, thus increasing their profits AND cutting costs, AND hiring more workers in the process.

There's a lot of research that says labor is actually only a small part of the cost in the products made overseas; the biggest costs are the components, and transport of those components to the factory. Supply chain is best when physically short. If the suppliers of screws, microchips, aluminum smelting, LCDs, etc, are all within 10 miles of the iPad plant, cost effectiveness is mostly coming from the supply chain, not the wages of the workers. Need to change a part? No problem; the other supplier is a block away.

And yet, American Airlines has gone bankrupt largely because they have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars more in labor costs.

Also government regulations make companies move elsewhere, another reason we are losing jobs.

Why does Foxconn work people 60-80 hours a week instead of just hiring more workers? Overhead: training, dorms, food, "benefits", etc. It's cheaper to work one person twice as hard than to hire two people to do the same work.

Why should I care if people work harder? My only concern is if people have jobs.

Your concerns are selfish in comparison, since they ignore the laws of economics. A small business can't hire workers if minimum wage is artificially high.

That's why no one pumps your gas anymore, or helps you into an elevator.

Business doesn't want to help the poor or the homeless: giving them concessions they ask for with the faith that they'll suddenly change their mind is not going to help the people already making minimum wage, and it's also not going to help the unemployed.

To me you're displaying a great deal of paranoia, since the most capitalist countries in the world have lower minimum wages, and surprise a larger labor force.

The Great Depression was a long time ago, so I don't doubt the lessons of pre-minimum wage America have been mostly lost.

It doesn't matter, the government can't create wealth out of thin air with minimum wage mandates.

And the most interventionist countries like the US, with a high minimum wage, have high unemployment rates compared to the cream of the crop.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

Bottom line, if you increase the minimum wage, it flows through to the purchaser. Wages for some rise, but prices for everyone rise, making dollars worth less. It's an inflationary tactic with little to no salutive effect. In fact, it's a guarantee of higher unemployment.

That's not true, but your stridency won't lead to any fruitful debate.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

You guys certainly seem confident. And that's charismatic. I'll back out of the discussion to think about it more.

 

[huevonkiller]

Bottom line, if you increase the minimum wage, it flows through to the purchaser. Wages for some rise, but prices for everyone rise, making dollars worth less. It's an inflationary tactic with little to no salutive effect. In fact, it's a guarantee of higher unemployment.

I get the feeling some people want higher unemployment.

It is good for government unions, or postal workers.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

That's why no one pumps your gas anymore

I did get a kick out of this, though. Second highest minimum wage in America (am I remembering that right?), and Oregonians have someone to pump their gas for them every day of the week.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Bottom line, if you increase the minimum wage, it flows through to the purchaser. Wages for some rise, but prices for everyone rise, making dollars worth less. It's an inflationary tactic with little to no salutive effect. In fact, it's a guarantee of higher unemployment.

This is why my local McDonalds only has 3 items on its dollar menu!