Rose and Marshall

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">Well I bolded the part because we see Bosh as the franchise at this point in the present and future. I don't want to hate on Sweetney but I seen the dude play, he is not Elton Brand. For one, Elton Brand can play amazing defence. Another, he came into the league as a dangerous low post threat. Third, he won the freaking ROY. Can you build a franchise around this Sweetney cat? I don't think it is guranteed like Brand was. Bosh is already the face of the franchise and he's only going to get better.</div>
We see Sweetney as the franchise, or one of the franchise players. No Sweetney is not Elton Brand. I have seen this cat Bosh play, and no he is not JO much less KG. Yes you can build a franchise around him just as much as Bosh. It might seems that way because the Raptors were not as good, nor does Toronto play in an environment with expectations close to being equivelant to New York. New York is not the type of place where they can risk using such a young player to turn around the franchise...they don?t have the time to wait. If Sweetney played his whole career in Toronto where they do, then I think he will be giving you similar stats to Bosh, but as of now, Bosh is better. I said developing into an Elton Brand like player.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That is why I was wondering why you see Sweetney as we see Bosh. I just don't agree with it I guess as much as Knick fans do. I say give him another year and then make predictions on the kid.</div>
Bosh is your future?Sweetney is our future, Bosh is a crowd favorite?Sweetney is a crowd favorite,?You guys love Bosh?we love Sweetney. That?s why I see him the same way as Bosh.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This is not a case of who is the better player or a better talent. This is a case of a 34 year old talented power foward with 4 years left on his contract vs. a player that is coming off the cap next year. I have no doubt about Thomas' talent but I don't want him on our team. Why add him? We already have Bosh.</div>
Why add him? Thomas is a veteran who adds defense, a bit of offense, rebounding, and experience. Any team can use him. I can see you talking about his contract but because you have Bosh, that doesn?t mean Kurt Thomas wouldn?t be useless on the Raptors. I don?t see Bosh averaging 40+mpg anytime soon, at least not this season, or next.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How are we getting cap room? You are leaving us with Thomas' large ass contract. Thats not exactly getting rid of cap room.</div>
Well you do have Thomas contract, but you lose Penny?s soon.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Like I said. I would rather get rid of Donyell's contract and wait for a better deal for Rose. This is not helping our problems one bit. Why wait one year for a bad contract to get off our cap? Why don't we just trade for someone that will come off right away? Sure rebuilding takes patience but it also takes being intelligent about your moves and your future.

Hell yeah but having KT's contract on our books for 4 years, we are more than a little hindered at doing that wouldn't we? Disagree?</div>
I would rather too. I don?t want this trade going down at all. We gain cap room, and lose a little bit when Marshall?s expires. Not something too impressive for me.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02CIVIC:</div><div class="quote_post">Marshall averages more over his career. Marshall has 5 seasons with at least 8 rebounds per game, Kurt is working on his fourth. Marshall has 2 seasons with 10 rpg, Kurt has none...9.7 is the closest he's come and thats this year, next closest is 9.1.
Marshall averaged 16.2ppg and 10.7rpg in 66 games with the Raps last year. Finishing the season only .1rpg from averaging a double double.
This year 'Yell is getting 24 minutes per game this year and he's still getting 10.7 and 6.8.
Kurt is not a good rebounder for a PF, thats a well known fact. This year he's been doing fine, but it might be because Crawford, TT, and Nazr are all horribly rebounders for their position.</div>
Yeah Marshall averages more over his career

Why didn?t you inform everyone that Kurt Thomas averages 7.3 rebounds over his career, and Marshall wins in a landslide at 7.4! Kurt Thomas is not a good rebounder?!?! Anyone who averages 9.7rpg is a good rebounder. If you think Kurt Thomas isn?t a good rebounder than Marshall isn?t. Their minutes in throughout their careers, are almost identical. Marshall averages 28.4 and Kurt averages 28.5 and Marshall averages .1 more rpg than Kurt Thomas. Basically it looks like this.
Kurt Thomas
28.5mpg
7.3rpg

Marshall
28.4rpg
7.4rpg
Tell me now which one is a better rebounder when it is clear their stats are almost identical. Clear cut Marshall? I don?t think so!

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I dont know about Kurt has a center. I'm sure he's done it...so has Donyell. But both are too weak for the spot, and both play away from the basket. I'd take 'Yell though simply because he's a better rebounder.</div>
He played C in 02-03. He averaged 14ppg, and 8rpg. I think that?s pretty good. ?Yell is a much better rebounder than Kurt. I?m bugging, he averages a full one tenth of a rebounder more than Thomas.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">They're both favorites, they both have good futures. Just remember Bosh has a bigger upside and is 2 years younger. Bosh is waaay better. Sure Sweetney doesnt get the same minutes but i think everyone will agree that Bosh has the skills, the speed, the talent...everything to be a top 5 player. Does Sweetney? At 6-8 and a chunky 270 pounds. Thats questionalbe.</div>
You would know everything about Sweetney watching him all the time and all

Bosh is better I?ll give you that but not ?waaay? better. Sweetney is like a rookie. He barely got any time during the Layden regime, and Isiah wanted to make it to the playoffs that year so Sweetney?s time was very limited. Toronto is in no way, shape, or form has the same expectations as NY. Toronto was really bad before they got Bosh, so know one expected a huge change. Bosh had the time, and the more lenient environment to develop. Sweetney has the power, smarts, and work ethic to become a good player.
Bosh does have the speed, skills and talent to become a good player, but I don?t think top 5. You also failed to mention the negatives about Bosh and not Sweetney which makes your argument seem very biased.

 

[Skiptomylue11]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">
They're both favorites, they both have good futures. Just remember Bosh has a bigger upside and is 2 years younger. Bosh is waaay better. Sure Sweetney doesnt get the same minutes but i think everyone will agree that Bosh has the skills, the speed, the talent...everything to be a top 5 player. Does Sweetney? At 6-8 and a chunky 270 pounds. Thats questionalbe.</div>

I really doubt it that Sweetney could double his mpg, he would be too tired and wouldn't have enough endurance to be nearly as effective.

Too compare Brand to Sweetney this early in their careers:
Brand: 37 mpg 1st season. ROY
Sweetney: 11.8 mpg 1st season.

I don't know about sweetney, but Brand seems to be a really explosive guy for his size. Like he can get up and dunk it whenever he needs to.

 

[jbbCourtVision]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">We see Sweetney as the franchise, or one of the franchise players. No Sweetney is not Elton Brand. I have seen this cat Bosh play, and no he is not JO much less KG. Yes you can build a franchise around him just as much as Bosh. It might seems that way because the Raptors were not as good, nor does Toronto play in an environment with expectations close to being equivelant to New York. New York is not the type of place where they can risk using such a young player to turn around the franchise...they don?t have the time to wait. If Sweetney played his whole career in Toronto where they do, then I think he will be giving you similar stats to Bosh, but as of now, Bosh is better. I said developing into an Elton Brand like player. </div>I never compared Bosh to JO or KG. Bosh will turn into his own type of player in time. But you are telling me that we the Raptors would be able to build around an overweight, undersized poor man's Elton Brand? This dude can't even play defence like Brand. The only reason you are using Brand as an example is because he is undersized. This guy is nowhere close to Brand right now, only in size.

And by saying franchise about Bosh, we MEAN Franchise. I mean he is the guy we are building around. THE ONE GUY we are building around. He is THE GUY. That is how talented this dude is and he is also 2 years younger than Sweetney and only 20 Years old averaging a double double since the New Year. Bosh is the face of the franchise. If you can say that Sweetney is the face of the franchise then.........that is your opinion and I'll leave it at that.

<font size="1">I just don't agree with it.....</font>

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why add him? Thomas is a veteran who adds defense, a bit of offense, rebounding, and experience. Any team can use him. I can see you talking about his contract but because you have Bosh, that doesn?t mean Kurt Thomas wouldn?t be useless on the Raptors. I don?t see Bosh averaging 40+mpg anytime soon, at least not this season, or next.</div>I know we can use him but is this really consistent with what we are trying to do in Toronto? No. And Bosh has been averaging close to 40 since Vince got shipped out. It's happening sooner than later.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well you do have Thomas contract, but you lose Penny?s soon. </div>Yah and? Penny's is coming off NEXT season. I would rather take my chances with Rose and not add another bad contract in Thomas'.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I would rather too. I don?t want this trade going down at all. We gain cap room, and lose a little bit when Marshall?s expires. Not something too impressive for me. </div>This trade stinks on the Raptors end. Thats all I can say.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">I never compared Bosh to JO or KG. Bosh will turn into his own type of player in time. But you are telling me that we the Raptors would be able to build around an overweight, undersized poor man's Elton Brand? This dude can't even play defence like Brand. The only reason you are using Brand as an example is because he is undersized. This guy is nowhere close to Brand right now, only in size.</div>
I never said you did compare him to Bosh. Another Raptor fan did. I was just clearing up the air. You know nothing about Sweetney to be judging him like that. Poor mans Brand. So what would Bosh be? You're acting as if he is the next Wilt. I haven't seen any post where you stated a negative about Bosh. Of course cause he's flawless. You failed to mention that Sweetney greatly utilizes his weight and size to be effective. Brand has a similar body structure, similar hands, and similar presence in the inside. Who would you compare Bosh to? Right now I'm telling you he is no where near that player, unless he isn't too good.

You're missing the point. Sweetney is just about a rookie and is still very young. Hop off. What would you expect from a second year player?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And by saying franchise about Bosh, we MEAN Franchise. I mean he is the guy we are building around. THE ONE GUY we are building around. He is THE GUY. That is how talented this dude is and he is also 2 years younger than Sweetney and only 20 Years old averaging a double double since the New Year. Bosh is the face of the franchise. If you can say that Sweetney is the face of the franchise then.........that is your opinion and I'll leave it at that.

<font size="1">I just don't agree with it.....</font></div>
I don't know how to say it more clearly than it's because the Raptors have sucked for so long! They play in Toronto. Toronto doesn't have expectations that are not even close to the expectations of New York. They have the time to give a 19 year old legit playing time because of where they are located. I really don't think you should be judging a player who you probably see on average (I'm being nice) 7 times a year. If you saw the game today, you would know what I am talking about. Sweetney is the future of the franchise. Right now the Knicks aren't bad enough to build one of the heaviest franchises in the NBA, on the shoulders of a second year player.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I know we can use him but is this really consistent with what we are trying to do in Toronto? No. And Bosh has been averaging close to 40 since Vince got shipped out. It's happening sooner than later.


Yah and? Penny's is coming off NEXT season. I would rather take my chances with Rose and not add another bad contract in Thomas'.


This trade stinks on the Raptors end. Thats all I can say.</div>
This trade stinks more for the Knicks!

 

[jbbCourtVision]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">I never said you did compare him to Bosh. Another Raptor fan did. I was just clearing up the air. You know nothing about Sweetney to be judging him like that. Poor mans Brand. So what would Bosh be? You're acting as if he is the next Wilt. I haven't seen any post where you stated a negative about Bosh. Of course cause he's flawless. You failed to mention that Sweetney greatly utilizes his weight and size to be effective. Brand has a similar body structure, similar hands, and similar presence in the inside. Who would you compare Bosh to? Right now I'm telling you he is no where near that player, unless he isn't too good. </div>The only reason you are comparing this kid to Elton Brand is because he is an undersized weighty power foward who can score down low. But I don't want to regard him as such because his defence is not nowhere near as close to Brands. What makes Brand so effective on defence is his long arms. I'm not trying to say this kid ain't talented because last night he was good for 15 and 8 in 18 minutes. He is talented. But he is not Brand. By saying that I mean that offensively he is not as talented and defensively he is nowhere close to where Brand was as a rookie or his second year.

And I'm not comparing Bosh to anyone. Right now he is raw as hell but impressively averaging good numbers since the all star break. But if I were to compare him to someone it would have to be Garnett due to his defensive capability, atheliticism and offense. That is what I would base my comparison on. But he is not going to be Garnett, he is going to be Chris Bosh.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You're missing the point. Sweetney is just about a rookie and is still very young. Hop off. What would you expect from a second year player?</div>And Bosh is even younger than Sweetney is. What is the point? The point of this whole arguement is that we don't need to add Kurt Thomas for reasons stated previously already in this trade thread.

And Sweetney is a second year player that is not getting burn on a Knicks team that is faltering. I don't understand why he isn't but there must be a reason. Maybe defence? I don't know.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know how to say it more clearly than it's because the Raptors have sucked for so long! They play in Toronto. Toronto doesn't have expectations that are not even close to the expectations of New York. They have the time to give a 19 year old legit playing time because of where they are located. I really don't think you should be judging a player who you probably see on average (I'm being nice) 7 times a year. If you saw the game today, you would know what I am talking about. Sweetney is the future of the franchise. Right now the Knicks aren't bad enough to build one of the heaviest franchises in the NBA, on the shoulders of a second year player. </div>I can agree with that. But is it really smart for one of the leagues biggest markets to build around an undersized power foward? The Clippers did it but Brand is a different player, everyone can agree to that. I'm sure Sweetney is one of the important pieces of the future but he is not the franchise.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This trade stinks more for the Knicks!</div>THIS TRADE STINKS MORE THE RAPTORS

Can we get a damn poll going on this??

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">The only reason you are comparing this kid to Elton Brand is because he is an undersized weighty power foward who can score down low. But I don't want to regard him as such because his defence is not nowhere near as close to Brands. What makes Brand so effective on defence is his long arms. I'm not trying to say this kid ain't talented because last night he was good for 15 and 8 in 18 minutes. He is talented. But he is not Brand. By saying that I mean that offensively he is not as talented and defensively he is nowhere close to where Brand was as a rookie or his second year.</div>
I did say develop into a Brand-like player. Brand ws an elite power forward in the league even as a rookie. He is underrated star in the league, and Sweetney was not equivelent to him as a rookie either. He was a rare rookie like LeBron and Carmelo. I am going to say like Carmelo because he went to college. He is similar to Anthony because they dominated as rookies. Those are hard to come by and Sweetney is not like that. The key word I said is develop.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And I'm not comparing Bosh to anyone. Right now he is raw as hell but impressively averaging good numbers since the all star break. But if I were to compare him to someone it would have to be Garnett due to his defensive capability, atheliticism and offense. That is what I would base my comparison on. But he is not going to be Garnett, he is going to be Chris Bosh.</div>
I don't think he is even like Garnett, try Travis Knight! I'm just joking right there.

Everyone knows that. But I don't see Bosh with the Garnett in him. I don't see him as having the same court awareness, or defense for that matter.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And Bosh is even younger than Sweetney is. What is the point? The point of this whole arguement is that we don't need to add Kurt Thomas for reasons stated previously already in this trade thread.</div>
It wont be a necessity however, you can use his help.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And Sweetney is a second year player that is not getting burn on a Knicks team that is faltering. I don't understand why he isn't but there must be a reason. Maybe defence? I don't know.</div>
Again you are commenting on his defense, when you don't watch enough Knick games to prove it except by the stat sheet, which is a very inaccurate in proving things like this. Sweetney is a very underrated defender.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I can agree with that. But is it really smart for one of the leagues biggest markets to build around an undersized power foward? The Clippers did it but Brand is a different player, everyone can agree to that. I'm sure Sweetney is one of the important pieces of the future but he is not the franchise.</div>
You keep on mentioning his lack of height, but you don't realize how he utilizes his rebounding ability, or his size to an advantage. How do you know that you can not build a franchise around him. From what he shows us night after night, we can. You are also unaware of this mans work ethic. He followed an NBA legend and post up great, Mark Aguire anywhere he went during the summer. Tremendous work ethic especially for someone that young.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">THIS TRADE STINKS MORE THE RAPTORS

Can we get a damn poll going on this??</div>
I would but, I don't know how to.

 

[50]

I really think that this would help out the Knicks. Look at the lineup that they would have:
PG- Stephon Marbury
SG- Jamal Crawford
SF- Jalen Rose
PF- Donyell Marshall
C- Nazr Mohammed
6 Men- Allan Houston'
This team would takeover the Atlantic and they would get to the playoffs.

 

[Mr. J]

Not enough shots to go around though Sonics1, Marbury, Crawford, and Rose will need to take many shots, and what would that do for the rest of the team. Also what will it do for our role players that deserve some shots.