ROY comments on our offense - is there a problem here?

[RR7]

Most of this I've addressed in my responses to you and andalusian, but to put it simply: I think Roy's greatest demonstrated strengths are his ability to get to the hoop and his ability to pass. Adding more elements to his game simply means his "game" will be more diverse. He may still go to his biggest strengths most of the time...but having other weapons in his pocket are good for both Roy and the Blazers.

I hate to keep harping on the example, but since this "side of the debate" keeps being framed as hostility to Roy: Was Jordan "deferring" when he spent large portions of games coming off screens to get backdoor passes or to catch and shoot? Is Kobe deferring on his many catch-and-shoots? It's not about deferring. It's about more ways to attack.

You've made a solid point here, and have made it more than once in this thread. And, in previous topics, I have seen you make the same point, showing how it is not Roy changing FOR Miller. I notice how PapaG always ignores these posts. He'd prefer to try to paint the argument as people choosing Miller over Roy.

 

[blazerboy30]

You've made a solid point here, and have made it more than once in this thread. And, in previous topics, I have seen you make the same point, showing how it is not Roy changing FOR Miller. I notice how PapaG always ignores these posts. He'd prefer to try to paint the argument as people choosing Miller over Roy.

++1

 

[RR7]

Oooh, double plus 1! That's better than plus 2, no?

 

[blazerboy30]

Oooh, double plus 1! That's better than plus 2, no?

Sure is. It also happens to satisfy the requirement for 3 characters.

 

[Natebishop3]

Jordan never had a usage rate under 31.7 after his rookie season until his final year on the Wizards. HIs best WS season was when he had a usage rate of 34.1.

Why should Roy have the ball less? I just don't see how that makes the team better.

Show me where any of those numbers have something to do with Jordan constantly improving his game and only then will you get a cookie.

 

[BGrantFan]

Show me where any of those numbers have something to do with Jordan constantly improving his game and only then will you get a cookie.

Show me where any of those numbers mean Jordan didn't or did improve his game.

Plus, a cookie? You're better than this.

 

[BGrantFan]

You've made a solid point here, and have made it more than once in this thread. And, in previous topics, I have seen you make the same point, showing how it is not Roy changing FOR Miller. I notice how BGrantFan always ignores these posts. He'd prefer to try to paint the argument as people choosing Miller over Roy.

Totally untrue. I already answered that in this thread. Why did you ignore it in your flame post?

Short of a Chris Paul at PG, I want Roy to have the ball in his hands more than he did last season. I guess I don't find this as an extreme position, but you and the boyz seem to be high-fiving about it.

 

[RR7]

Hmm, I put PapaG, YOU replaced it with BGrantFan.

 

[BGrantFan]

I do admit this. If defending the position that Brandon Roy should be the focus of the offense brings me derision, and that role could even be expanded, then I am totally fine with holding that position.

Get back to high-fiving each other over whatever points you were making.

 

[BGrantFan]

BGrantFan.

Do you have any opinions? Or is "+1" your macro? What is your major issue with me in this thread, tag-a-long?

 

[RR7]

As for ball in his hands, usage rate doesn't necessarily mean he dominates the ball. If my team has one possession, and I stand in the corner, and with three seconds left on the clock, the pass comes to me, and I throw up a 3 and miss, I have a usage rate of 100. What people are saying is there are OTHER ways to increase his usage. He peaked so far at about 27 I think you said earlier, dominating the ball. Trying to get him at 32 and into Kobe range doesn't necessarily mean put it in his hands more, although I do want the offense running through him. If one every 5 possessions he comes off a screen, catches a pass from Miller, and drops a J for 2, that counts the same as if he dribbles for 23 seconds and hits a fade away. So if he's good at one, I think what people are asking is, why not get good at the other? We KNOW he can dominate the game. I put absolutely no blame on him for the Houston series. HE showed up, nobody else did. ISO can work if you have other people. All I'm saying is, if he cuts through the lane once when LMA is posting up, doesn't have to be just Andre with the ball, I know you want it to be the two of them, one against the other. But if he cuts through the lane for a pass, that increases his usage rate the same as any other possession finishing with him.

 

[BGrantFan]

As for ball in his hands, usage rate doesn't necessarily mean he dominates the ball. If my team has one possession, and I stand in the corner, and with three seconds left on the clock, the pass comes to me, and I throw up a 3 and miss, I have a usage rate of 100. What people are saying is there are OTHER ways to increase his usage. He peaked so far at about 27 I think you said earlier, dominating the ball. Trying to get him at 32 and into Kobe range doesn't necessarily mean put it in his hands more, although I do want the offense running through him. If one every 5 possessions he comes off a screen, catches a pass from Miller, and drops a J for 2, that counts the same as if he dribbles for 23 seconds and hits a fade away. So if he's good at one, I think what people are asking is, why not get good at the other? We KNOW he can dominate the game. I put absolutely no blame on him for the Houston series. HE showed up, nobody else did. ISO can work if you have other people. All I'm saying is, if he cuts through the lane once when LMA is posting up, doesn't have to be just Andre with the ball, I know you want it to be the two of them, one against the other. But if he cuts through the lane for a pass, that increases his usage rate the same as any other possession finishing with him.

Yes. This is what I was saying earlier, as Minstrel already basically made this point. Do you really think that Roy is a "grab and shoot" player? I don't, and I think the more the ball is in his hands initiating the offense, the better off the Blazers are in the long run. This is an extreme position, I guess.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

I think this situation needs to be resolved quickly; i don't think Miller and Roy are ever going to work well together, they've had plenty of time to make it work and it doesn't work. If the blazers can't find a good trade for Miller, then they just need to start trying to play without him. We've got two good shooting guards now and so maybe Roy needs to play the point. And he needs to be told that if that's what we are doing he needs to step up his defense. This also gives Bayless (and maybe Johnson) more time to prove what they can do. I almost feel like this year (again) needs to be used for building for the future. Getting our bigs back in shape and developing an offense without an aging Miller.

 

[RR7]

I'm not asking him to ONLY be a catch and shoot player. You like to argue it somehow goes from him to Rip Hamilton. NO. However, he isn't going to have the ball in his hands every possession. Nobody does. So the prefered option if he isn't initiating is sit in the corner? PLay 4 on 5? If teams know he doesn't come off screens at all? Whatever. Or, oooh, I saw you use it earlier, thought maybe it's what the cool kids are saying. Uhm. What was it? Lates. Yeah.

 

[BGrantFan]

I'm not asking him to ONLY be a catch and shoot player. You like to argue it somehow goes from him to Rip Hamilton. NO. However, he isn't going to have the ball in his hands every possession. Nobody does. So the prefered option if he isn't initiating is sit in the corner? PLay 4 on 5? If teams know he doesn't come off screens at all? Whatever. Or, oooh, I saw you use it earlier, thought maybe it's what the cool kids are saying. Uhm. What was it? Lates. Yeah.

I don't understand this post. I never said that Roy needed the ball in his hands every possession. Do I think he should be the primary threat on offense, and have the ball in his hands more often than not?

Yes.

 

[BGrantFan]

I think this situation needs to be resolved quickly; i don't think Miller and Roy are ever going to work well together, they've had plenty of time to make it work and it doesn't work. If the blazers can't find a good trade for Miller, then they just need to start trying to play without him. We've got two good shooting guards now and so maybe Roy needs to play the point. And he needs to be told that if that's what we are doing he needs to step up his defense. This also gives Bayless (and maybe Johnson) more time to prove what they can do. I almost feel like this year (again) needs to be used for building for the future. Getting our bigs back in shape and developing an offense without an aging Miller.

Could the defense at PG be any worse than what Miller brings right now? I'd rather have Batum or Matthews defending the point than Miller or Roy right now.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

To elaborate a little further on my first post; I don't think it's important to decide if Roy is right or not in his belief that him having the ball more in his hands will be best for the team. I don't think he is going to change his mind on this. If the team thinks he may be right, then they just need to commit to this and leave Miller behind.

 

[BGrantFan]

To elaborate a little further on my first post; I don't think it's important to decide if Roy is right or not in his belief that him having the ball more in his hands will be best for the team. I don't think he is going to change his mind on this. If the team thinks he may be right, then they just need to commit to this and leave Miller behind.

The team signed Roy to a max contract. They have yet to even pick up Miller's option for next year.

I'd say the decision has already been made, and Roy's comments validate it IMO, but that's just me. I agree with you. Start molding a Bayless/Roy/Matthews/Batum rotation in the back-court and see what happens. If it isn't working, then Miller's expiring contract looks nice at the trade deadline to try and get a more flexible PG that can shoot, defend, and distribute the ball.

 

[Natebishop3]

Show me where any of those numbers mean Jordan didn't or did improve his game.

Plus, a cookie? You're better than this.

What's wrong with cookies?

 

[BGrantFan]

What's wrong with cookies?

They are delicious. I just don't enjoy the condescending flavored ones.

 

[1 Eye Jack]

Forget finding a PG if Roy wants the ball in his hands more move Miller out of the lineup and play Roy at PG and Mathews at SG, Batum and SF, LMA at PF and Camby at Center. Let Mathews or Batum guard the elite PG's and Mathews is capable of bringing the ball up the court. Not a long term solution but one we could get by on till a consolidation trade. Then let Miller and Rudy play together on the 2nd unit with Bayless getting mop up duty.

 

[THE HCP]

Where's Hollinger when you need 'em? His PER could solve this!

 

[Minstrel]

We've got two good shooting guards now and so maybe Roy needs to play the point.

If the Blazers thought Roy could play point guard successfully long-term, they wouldn't have acquired Miller in the first place.

Of course, that was Pritchard. Maybe Cho believes Roy can do it. I've always been open to the possibility, as my opinion of Bayless is that he doesn't need to be a pure point guard to be successful next to Roy.

Since the team has never suggested, though, that they envision Roy playing point guard consistently, I'm assuming he's going to remain a play-making shooting guard, which still means the team needs a point guard. For now, Miller is easily the most talented one on the roster, so should be getting starter minutes. I also disagree that it's been demonstrated that the two can't play well together. My opinion is that they were playing together quite successfully together down the stretch of last season.

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to draw battle lines between Roy and Miller, as though one has to win and the other has to be left behind. I doubt they, themselves, or the coaching staff see it that way. The team seems to be experimenting in pre-season with some added facets to Roy's game that could give the team more options in how they play. If it fails to take, then I imagine they'll go back to their mode at the end of last season before Roy got hurt. Roy and Miller starting, playing together and the team playing well.

 

[BGrantFan]

If the Blazers thought Roy could play point guard successfully long-term, they wouldn't have acquired Miller in the first place.

They're first choice was Hedo. He declined. Their second choice was Millsap, and that money was tied up for a week. As I recall, didn't Miller sell himself to the Blazers during a dinner in Vegas? It's not like PG was the first priority during the '09 summer. Was Miller a Pritchard panic move after missing out on Hedo, Millsap, and whoever else was available during Millsap's RFA week?

 

[Nikolokolus]

Forget finding a PG if Roy wants the ball in his hands more move Miller out of the lineup and play Roy at PG and Mathews at SG, Batum and SF, LMA at PF and Camby at Center. Let Mathews or Batum guard the elite PG's and Mathews is capable of bringing the ball up the court. Not a long term solution but one we could get by on till a consolidation trade. Then let Miller and Rudy play together on the 2nd unit with Bayless getting mop up duty.

I'd call that sub-optimal and kind of disappointing, but something tells me you're not far off the mark.

The Miller experiment might have worked if Roy's attitude were different, but it seems like we're right back where we left off last October when B-Roy was busy lobbying for Steve and talking about putting the ball back in his hands.

The question becomes, "trade for whom?" At this point is there any point guard out that there that can hit the open jumper, play defense, but will be willing to defer and get out of Brandon's way on offense? I'm struggling to think of anybody that fits that bill exactly.

 

[Minstrel]

They're first choice was Hedo.

Another player with "point" abilities as his major strength.

It's not like PG was the first priority during the '09 summer.

I agree with that. But I don't think a GM brings in a player like Miller with the belief that the point guard position is already covered.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Since the team has never suggested, though, that they envision Roy playing point guard consistently, I'm assuming he's going to remain a play-making shooting guard, which still means the team needs a point guard. For now, Miller is easily the most talented one on the roster, so should be getting starter minutes. I also disagree that it's been demonstrated that the two can't play well together. My opinion is that they were playing together quite successfully together down the stretch of last season.

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to draw battle lines between Roy and Miller, as though one has to win and the other has to be left behind. I doubt they, themselves, or the coaching staff see it that way. The team seems to be experimenting in pre-season with some added facets to Roy's game that could give the team more options in how they play. If it fails to take, then I imagine they'll go back to their mode at the end of last season before Roy got hurt. Roy and Miller starting, playing together and the team playing well.

Maybe you're right; sometimes I am too impatient, but my gut feeling tells me it's better to move on with something new.

 

[BGrantFan]

I agree with that. But I don't think a GM brings in a player like Miller with the belief that the point guard position is already covered.

GM's make mistakes. Maybe this is why kpee was fired.

 

[Blazer4ever]

I think this situation needs to be resolved quickly; i don't think Miller and Roy are ever going to work well together, they've had plenty of time to make it work and it doesn't work. If the blazers can't find a good trade for Miller, then they just need to start trying to play without him. We've got two good shooting guards now and so maybe Roy needs to play the point. And he needs to be told that if that's what we are doing he needs to step up his defense. This also gives Bayless (and maybe Johnson) more time to prove what they can do. I almost feel like this year (again) needs to be used for building for the future. Getting our bigs back in shape and developing an offense without an aging Miller.

Very good points!

 

[Blazer4ever]

I've already suggested in another thread a trade with the Kings who currently have Pooh Jeter as their main back-court backup. Maybe the Knicks?