ROY comments on our offense - is there a problem here?

[Minstrel]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

Good post, Minstrel, but I suspect that Roy and the coaching staff ARE open-minded as to how he gets the ball. I think this whole issue is the typical thing we see around here where some player says something and then people here interpret it how they want in order to push whatever opinion or agenda they have about the team. I think it would be a good idea to wait and actually see a few games before reaching any conclusions about Roy's attitude. I want our best player to be a bit selfish, but not at the expense of the team. I'm of the opinion that Brandon has no other agenda than wanting to win.

I entirely agree with you. My post is more in response to some fans, the ones that I perceive as saying "That's not his game so let him do what he does," not "to" Brandon Roy (insofar as any of us can "address" a player who doesn't read this forum). I'm not criticizing Roy, because I don't know what he's thinking. I'm just hopeful that he's not closing the door on new frills to the offense because he's comfortable with something and doesn't want to change. I'm not saying that he is doing that...it's just a possibility that I hope is not the case.

And if Roy were doing that, it would be understandable. He's a talented young guy who's largely only tasted success personally and as a team (in comparison to what the team accomplished prior to him). It's understandable if he thought, "Why are we changing? This is working."

However, I think in all team sports, athletes and teams have to evolve to succeed. The only ones who don't are the ones who can't, because their talents aren't capable of it. This is where I think many people missed the boat on Rasheed Wallace: I don't think he had a lack of desire to change his role and style...I don't think he was talented enough to do so. That's why I never bought the claims that he could be as good as Duncan or Garnett if he just cared. Talent shows itself, in part, in how you can adapt and evolve so that the league can never "solve" you and so you can allow your team to do more things.

So if Roy is in a "don't fix what ain't broke" mentality, while it would be understandable, I think it would be a mistake. For him, personally, and for the team to flourish, he'll need to change. As will any teammate capable of doing so.

Of course, if Roy is open to change and trying to expand his range of play, then great. I have no concerns at all and I fully endorse him getting the ball as much as the coaching staff can contrive to keep it in his hands.

 

[ILOVEODEN]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

Another year of Nates ISO's, CAN'T WAIT!!!!!! Spoiled ROY being spoiled ROY

 

[Mediocre Man]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

Another year of Nates ISO's, CAN'T WAIT!!!!!! Spoiled ROY being spoiled ROY

Just think how cool it's gonna be seeing them win 50 games and hearing how efficient they are.

 

[RR7]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

trade Him!! I want to see a team full of role players only! Fuck stars! Who wins with stars in this league? I need a break.

 

[Natebishop3]

I would really like to know what opposing coaches think about our offense. I would love to see one on record as saying, "The Blazers? They have two plays... Brandon Roy iso and Brandon Roy pick and roll. That shit is super easy to stop."

 

[Wheels]

I would really like to know what opposing coaches think about our offense. I would love to see one on record as saying, "The Blazers? They have two plays... Brandon Roy iso and Brandon Roy pick and roll. That shit is super easy to stop."

Rick Adleman already made that statement in the 09 playoffs

 

[Mediocre Man]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

trade Him!! I want to see a team full of role players only! Fuck stars! Who wins with stars in this league? I need a break.

Dwight Howard
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Vince Carter
Kevin Durant
Lebron James
Chris Bosh
Dirk Nowitzki
Yao Ming
T-Mac
Carmelo Anthony
Danny Granger
Amare Stoudemire
Joe Johnson
Derek Rose
Allen Iverson

Those are all recent or current stars in the NBA that haven't won a title

To answer your question

Teams with 2 stars win....most of the time

K*be and Pau
K*be and Shaq
Shaq and Wade
Pierce, KG, Allen
Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
Jordan, Pippen

With the possible exception of Detroit (Billups, Hamilton), might seriously have to go back to the 77 Blazer team that won it all to find a team with only 1 star to win it......maybe Olajuwan's first ring?

Brandon needs to learn to adjust his game so his teammates can help him. All of the great players have done it, and Brandon shouldn't be any different. Maybe, just maybe, it's the scheme

 

[Mediocre Man]

I would really like to know what opposing coaches think about our offense. I would love to see one on record as saying, "The Blazers? They have two plays... Brandon Roy iso and Brandon Roy pick and roll. That shit is super easy to stop."

Warning: Turn away Zags, this will only anger you.

A scout friend of mine who works for the Mavs has said multiple times that Portland's offense is easy to game plan against. He always goes on to say "it's keeping them off the boards that kills you"

 

[BrianFromWA]

I know I'm late to the game on this, but I've moved over the last year or so more into what BGrantFan is talking about in this thread.

Roy's usage rate is criminally low, especially when you look at the options he's been playing with. Miller did yeoman's work when Roy was out and is a pleasant fallback option to have, but his lack of perimeter shooting (while not coupled with stingy D or having an effective low-post game on the team with Oden out) really hurts the offense. I'm sure that the offense could be re-tooled to go more to the post, to run more, and to have Andre posting up more, but Roy does "his thing" better than Miller does "his thing", and imho the two games are mutually exclusive. Roy's about our 5th-best long-range shooter, though he's getting better. But I don't want him camped at the 3pt line waiting for a Miller pass out of a double-team on the low block.

On the talk about usage rate, here's a primer on it:

UR = 100 * ((FGA + 0.44 * FTA + TOV) * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm FGA + 0.44 * Tm FTA + Tm TOV))

So if Roy attempts more FGs (or, perversely, turns the ball over more) his UR goes up. If his minutes go down, or the team FGA/FTA/TOV goes down, his usage rate goes up. I'd submit that this team is probably not going to have significantly less turnovers or less shots than they've had in the past, so Roy getting more shots (specifically, more shots/minute) is really the only way his usage can increase.
An easy (relatively speaking) way for Roy to get up to that 30-35% UR is to do what you see K*be, Wade, LBJ, Durant and 'Melo doing a lot more than we do: running and finishing on the break. Part of that is that our team doesn't steal the ball much. This site show how last year, LBJ, Wade, Durant all scored over 70 points on just off of fastbreaks onteam steals. Roy scored 21...behind Miller (37), Webster (28) and LMA (24). Part of it is that we don't fastbreak, period (we were 29th at 9.5ppg, just ahead of MIA's 9.4ppg...of which Wade scored a large portion).

Before this becomes a tl;dr post pinata, I'll say this: I feel that the days of Roy plunging into the lane, getting hit (or not), screaming "Argh!" and tossing up a layup attempt are going the way of the dodo. It may be due to injury concerns, it may be due to getting T'd up for looking for a call, it may be due to having more accomplished shooters to pass to on the wings and corners. My concern isn't that Roy should be lowering his usage rate...it's that he should be (and hopefully will be) increasing his usage rate and at the same time decreasing the degree of difficulty on the shots he does take, and becoming an elitely efficient player. Miller's role is tertiary to that, and I don't mind if his feelings are hurt b/c of that.

 

[RR7]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

Adjust his game? Is Aldridge ranking up with those second stars? Or is Miller? Who is our second star? Maybe he can adjust when Oden actually plays. So it seems like it's more of a roster/management issue, not a Brandon issue.

 

[LittleAlex]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

Dwight Howard
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Vince Carter
Kevin Durant
Lebron James
Chris Bosh
Dirk Nowitzki
Yao Ming
T-Mac
Carmelo Anthony
Danny Granger
Amare Stoudemire
Joe Johnson
Derek Rose
Allen Iverson

Those are all recent or current stars in the NBA that haven't won a title

To answer your question

Teams with 2 stars win....most of the time

K*be and Pau
K*be and Shaq
Shaq and Wade
Pierce, KG, Allen
Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
Jordan, Pippen

With the possible exception of Detroit (Billups, Hamilton), might seriously have to go back to the 77 Blazer team that won it all to find a team with only 1 star to win it......maybe Olajuwan's first ring?

Brandon needs to learn to adjust his game so his teammates can help him. All of the great players have done it, and Brandon shouldn't be any different. Maybe, just maybe, it's the scheme

Maybe if Portland had another player at even close to the same level as B-Roy he would feel differently about it and be more willing to share the load.

Unfortunately Portland doesn't have another player even close.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

Two step solution:
1. Trade Andre for Varejao (maybe a three way - Andre ends up in Charlotte)
2. INSTALL THE TRIANGLE. If Ron Harper can be a starting PG, then so can Wesley or even Rudy.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

I agree with most of what Minstrel has said. I see Roy as sort of a Rich Man's Tyreke Evans. And I DON'T see Evans as a PG (or as an All-NBA player ever). I think Roy is more team-oriented than Evans, and definitely a more mature person, though.

 

[hasoos]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

And if it happens so often (getting up a shot in a hurry and off of "flaming bag passes"), doesn't that point to a serious flaw in the offensive scheme?

Even the best teams have to make flaming bag shots. The difference between good band bad teams is how many of them they have to take, and how many of those shots they make. How many flaming bag shots has Fisher hit over the years? How about Robert Horry? Hell I remember some games where each of those guys hit multiple flaming bag passes to get the win. When facing top level opponents, you are going to have flaming bag passes, because the defense will shut down opportunities.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

Two step solution:
1. Trade Andre for Varejao (maybe a three way - Andre ends up in Charlotte)
2. INSTALL THE TRIANGLE. If Ron Harper can be a starting PG, then so can Wesley or even Rudy.

This is not a slam, but I think Nate values ball security too much to run the triangle.

 

[blazerboy30]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

Adjust his game? Is Aldridge ranking up with those second stars? Or is Miller? Who is our second star? Maybe he can adjust when Oden actually plays. So it seems like it's more of a roster/management issue, not a Brandon issue.

While it was a small sample set, Roy didn't seem to be happy / willing to adjust his game last year when Oden was playing.

 

[blazerboy30]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

Even the best teams have to make flaming bag shots. The difference between good band bad teams is how many of them they have to take, and how many of those shots they make. How many flaming bag shots has Fisher hit over the years? How about Robert Horry? Hell I remember some games where each of those guys hit multiple flaming bag passes to get the win. When facing top level opponents, you are going to have flaming bag passes, because the defense will shut down opportunities.

I agree with you on this, I just don't agree with the idea that a team should be built around expecting lots of flaming bag passes. If that is the case, the offensive scheme needs to change.

 

[Cake]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

I'm fine with Roy getting the ball a lot. I'm fine with him getting the ball more than he has in the past. What I'm not necessarily fine with is an attitude of "To make this team successful, just give me the ball and let me figure it out." No player has been terribly successful that way, not even Michael Jordan. I realize that Roy is willing to pass the ball, and he's not a selfish scorer. However, demanding he be the focal point all the time I think would be detrimental, because it limits what the team can do.

I don't read that as his attitude at all, that he needs the ball at all times every time down the court. "To make this team successful, just give me the ball and let me figure it out." Really? He didn't say anything like that. It seems from his quotes that he has two main concerns...

One, he wants more structure:

"We really haven't put in the offense we're used to working with. I know the first three games we didn't even have an offensive play. I know I don't like to play loose. I kind of need some plays, some organization there."

And second, last year he deferred too much to Andre Miller, but he's willing to compromise:

"Last year I thought it was different from 2 years before, just with adding 'Dre. I think we're going to continue some of that from last year but try to get back maybe from a couple of years ago, before 'Dre came, where I get the ball a little bit more. I want the basketball a lot more."

So he says 'we're going to continue some of that...but try to get back to the offense of 2 years ago.'

Isn't he describing the compromise you're calling for?

What it comes down to is that I don't think Roy is a point guard. I don't think he can function like a point guard and be the initiator every time down the floor. In some ways, his hybrid nature is a strength...but it's a weakness also, if he can't execute/accept roles, at times, that off guards generally take on, like being off the ball weapons. The fact of the matter is that Roy is not a transcendent player. He's Portland's best player since Drexler and fans associate him with the team's turnaround, but he's not a generational type of player (from an NBA standpoint). He isn't so good that he should be able to dictate what he does and everyone falls into line around that. Being the "best player" isn't qualification enough; I can only imagine the howls of anger if Zach Randolph had made comments like this as Portland's best player at one point.

Well, he may not be a generational player, but two years ago, he was damn good. 6th in the league in WS/48 minutes. Last year, he was not nearly as good and we didn't win as many games.

Then again, as he said, he's not looking to exclusively have the ball: "I think we're going to continue some of that from last year but try to get back maybe from a couple of years ago, before 'Dre came, where I get the ball a little bit more."

People seem to be reading a lot into his comments, projecting some sort of super-ball-hog game from Roy this season.

For me, the bottom line is I think teams have got to go to their strengths. Our strength is Brandon Roy creating in the half court. It's too bad that it's among our only strengths, but it is. Until we get some more offensive weapons, I think it has to be what we go to with the most regularity.

(Your Zach Randolph comment is interesting. I'm sure you're right that most fans would have hated that comment, but I would have absolutely LOVED if he got more shots. That ignorant fuck could score!)

Plus, Roy playing the PG, even if he's not a true point guard and even if it's not his best position, allows us to give better defensive players more playing time. The lineup of Roy, Matthews and Batum is our best 1-3 lineup and gives us the best chance to win, even if Roy is running the offense more than some would like.

(then again, as he said...he's not looking for that to be the entirety of the offense, just more of the offense than it was last season.)

Even Jordan adapted his game. It's not too much to ask Roy to do the same. The tone that some people seem to be taking ("How dare you question Roy, he's our best player") is overmuch, in my opinion. He's an excellent player, but it's still his responsibility to adapt his game to fit the personnel around him, just as it's the responsibility of every other player. The coaching staff should want the ball in his hands a ton, but everyone, including Roy, should be open-minded as to how the ball is put in his hands.

Jordan adapted his game, it's true. (though his main adaptation was to go from volume scorer early in his career to a more efficient scorer/distributor under Phil Jackson...which is already the style of Roy's game.) When Jordan adapted his game, he didn't sit in the corner and watch the inferior players play. That happened to Brandon Roy far too much last season. And the results were not great. His numbers suffered, as did our win total.

I don't honestly believe that he's saying 'give me the ball and get out of the way.' I read his comments as 'don't put me in a corner and expect me, or the team, to play as well as we can.'

 

[illmatic99]

http://twitter.com/statcenter

Blazers' record last yr when Brandon Roy took fewer than 20 FGA: 35-14. Their record when he took >20 FGA: 7-9. #nba

But one counter to that argument is that Roy said he wanted the ball more, not that he wanted more shots.

 

[Blazer4ever]

If there was a position of need, I'd trade Miller, but other than the Center position - that is extremely thin right now but supposed to be stacked if everything goes well - I see no real need.
I do believe, however, that a tighter rotation, with Roy and Rudy in the starting back-court, with Bayless getting minutes behind both, Mathewss also getting some playing time at SG and Armon Johnson for special occasions could make us better. Even without getting anyone for Miller, it would be the famous "addition by substraction".

Our healthy starting lineup would be Roy, Rudy, Batum, LMA and Oden. On the bench we'll have Bayless as a 1/2, Mathewss 2/3, Dante 3/4, Camby 4/5 and Joel (when healthy) inside. Even without Miller, there are many players deserving of minutes, losing him - even for no real compensation - could make things easier, IMO.

 

[THE HCP]

This thread is almost a big as the one where KingSpeed wanted to give one of our trainers ASSLOVE!

 

[hasoos]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

I agree with you on this, I just don't agree with the idea that a team should be built around expecting lots of flaming bag passes. If that is the case, the offensive scheme needs to change.

The first thing is that the offensive scheme that Portland runs requires Roy to be effective in order to get other people open. It also requires that shooters go to certain spots so the spacing is right. It also depends on the fact that those players out there doing the spacing can hit an open perimeter shot. Roy knows where those spots are, and over his career, has shown to be a very effective player at finding those open guys. The cause for most flaming bag passes in my view, is "pounding the rock". Not ISO offense. You can have an ISO offense without causing a lot of flaming bag passes. But the ISO offense must start quickly, and have lots of time on the clock to get the first attempt. The ISO offense also has to be able to hit cutters who are moving. One of the biggest problems Portland has about it's offense, is how far out on the floor it starts. Because it starts so far out on the floor, the defense has a ton of time to adjust. If we had just one player, who constantly caught the ball only a few feet from the hoop so the defense would be forced to react immediately, things would change.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

Plus, Roy playing the PG, even if he's not a true point guard and even if it's not his best position, allows us to give better defensive players more playing time. The lineup of Roy, Matthews and Batum is our best 1-3 lineup and gives us the best chance to win

While I agree that that's the best defensive 1-3, I don't agree that it's the overall best 1-3 lineup. I think Miller is a much better player than Matthews, even if worse defensively.

That's just an aside, not really a major point, since the main thrust is what the team's philosophy vis a vis Roy should be, and that's pretty irrelevant to Miller, since Miller is not a long-term building block.

I don't honestly believe that he's saying 'give me the ball and get out of the way.' I read his comments as 'don't put me in a corner and expect me, or the team, to play as well as we can.'

I'm not saying that he is, necessarily, saying "Give me the ball and let me figure it out." As I said, I don't know what he's thinking. The general vibe I've gotten from his comments over the past year or so is that he's a bit of a basketball conservative: he feels he and team have found a good place and therefore why change things.

It's a perfectly valid viewpoint (assuming I'm correct) but I think, in my admittedly amateur viewpoint, that it's a mistake. I think Roy, not being a true point guard, makes his own task harder when he controls the ball most of the time. He's a scoring guard who can pass, not a true distributor. Much of the time, he's looking to score but he's taking the hard way by isolating and driving into the teeth of the defense.

I want him to score. I want him to score a lot. While I think he can handle and pass, I think scoring is his main talent and calling. I think some of that means getting him easier shots. That definitely doesn't mean sitting in the corner and waiting for a pass. While I don't think he did a lot of that last year, it did happen. Most of that, IMO, was some level of unfamiliarity with playing off the ball. If you're not used to it, playing off the ball can end up devolving into floating on the perimeter.

A proper off the ball game would involve Brandon diving to the hoop backdoor a lot, without the ball, to receive the pass near the hoop for a conversion. It would involve plays designed to run him off screens to get him open mid-range and perimeter shots.

This is the adaptation that I was referring to in Jordan (and one Kobe made also). This is why Jordan became more efficient as a scorer...because isolating and driving to the hoop, even with Jordan's talent, is punishing and doing it the hard way. Stars need to do that to some extent, because schemes will only get you so many open shots. Sometimes you just have to talent up and beat the other guy(s). But it's not at all good to score that way exclusively.

A true off the ball game would net Roy more easy shots. It would get him more total shots, more points and it would also make him harder for the defense to account for. A player who generally has the ball is easy to account for...you always know where he is: where the ball is. Putting the ball in someone else's hands and running Roy through screens, having him attack from any angle, can create a lot of defensive confusion. Even more importantly, it takes a lot of defensive pressure off Roy. No sane defense can double a player who doesn't have the ball. If he catches backdoor for a layup/dunk attempt or catches and shoots, he gets his shot attempt before the defense can run another player at him.

This is, in no way, about de-emphasizing Roy. It's about maximizing his impact and getting him more shots. But more shots in a way that reduce the physical punishment he takes, gets him more efficient shots and makes the Blazers' team offense more difficult to defend. As I said, I'd love for Roy to end up taking more shots. I just want those shots to come in more varied ways, which means taking him off the ball some.

That doesn't mean he should never initiate. While scoring is his forte, he does have passing and dribbling skills that should be exploited. He should have plenty of opportunities to drive and either score or dish. But I wouldn't mind if A. his shots went up and B. the percentage of his shots coming from drives off the wing went down.

You may be right that that is exactly the kind of thing Roy is hinting at. I don't know. I can't tell. I hope so! As I said earlier, I'm more discussing this with fans who seem skeptical of having Roy play off the ball than I am directing this "at" Roy as a criticism.

 

[THE HCP]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

This place is crazy! I would love to see more people get involved in the offense, but what he said is true. We win when he has the ball in his hand, plain and simple! Why hate on our star player when he speaks the truth?

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

This place is crazy! I would love to see more people get involved in the offense, but what he said is true. We win when he has the ball in his hand, plain and simple! Why hate on our star player when he speaks the truth?

We've won what exactly? (in the playoffs, where it counts)

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

Brandon Roy is such a fucking liar

Said Roy: "You know, last year I would say I was kind of spoiled and I wanted things to be my way, whereas now I'm a little more understanding that I have to help change on the court to help him fit more, too. It can't just be 'How can everybody help Brandon."'

"It was a big thing for me when I realized it – I wasn't reaching out enough," Roy said. "I'm a sharer and a giver, but there are times I can be stubborn mentally – where if I think something is right, I think it's right."

Roy said he dedicated most of his summer to adapting his game to complement Miller's game. He worked on catching and shooting. Getting open without the ball.

 

[THE HCP]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

We've won what exactly? (in the playoffs, where it counts)

Honestly!!!!????? Did you miss the fact that we had 313 games missed due to injury and STILL FUCKING WON 50 GAMES! WHat did you expect from a team torn apart from injuries. Brandon goes down in the last game of the year...... has FUCKING SURGERY and still makes it back to play in the 1st round. You have to put shit in perspective man! After Joel went down I swore we weren't even MAKING the playoffs.

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

Honestly!!!!????? Did you miss the fact that we had 313 games missed due to injury and STILL FUCKING WON 50 GAMES! WHat did you expect from a team torn apart from injuries. Brandon goes down in the last game of the year...... has FUCKING SURGERY and still makes it back to play in the 1st round. You have to put shit in perspective man! After Joel went down I swore we weren't even MAKING the playoffs.

Without Andre Miller, we dont even make the playoffs

 

[THE HCP]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

Without Andre Miller, we dont even make the playoffs

I agree, what's your point?

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

Re: Fuck Brandon Roy

I agree, what's your point?

My point is, if last year, we would have kept Blake and played the way Roy wanted to, we wouldnt have made the playoffs