Roy will take the next step to SUPERSTAR this season (1 Viewer)

[Further]

Every year I underestimate his potential and he continues to improve more than I thought possible. Well, I ain't underestimating him any longer. I say by the end of this season, he will be on par with Kobe, Paul and the other superstar guards of the NBA. He will be legitimately considered for MVP of the NBA this coming season. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[DaRizzle]

Paul...sure...Kobe no

Their stats could be similar but its only because Kobe has better weapons to defer to

 

[RoyIsClutch07]

Every year I underestimate his potential and he continues to improve more than I thought possible. Well, I ain't underestimating him any longer. I say by the end of this season, he will be on par with Kobe, Paul and the other superstar guards of the NBA. He will be legitimately considered for MVP of the NBA this coming season. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

As long as the blazers are contending, he should be considered mvp material.

 

[Minstrel]

Paul...sure...Kobe no

Paul is significantly better than Kobe at this point. Kobe is no longer at his peak. If Roy surpasses any of the perimeter players ahead of him (James, Paul, Wade, Kobe) this season, it'll be Kobe. Paul is just barely behind James. Kobe is solidly behind both.

 

[DaRizzle]

sure dude...put Kobe with a bunch of underachievers and see what he does. Just because he doesnt go apeshit on the court doesnt mean he cant. Team game wins and he knows that

 

[Minstrel]

sure dude...put Kobe with a bunch of underachievers and see what he does. Just because he doesnt go apeshit on the court doesnt mean he cant. Team game wins and he knows that

You're free to speculate. The facts are that he's not as productive. I'm sure when he's 60, you'll be saying, "If he WANTED to go ape-shit, he could...he just doesn't want to. He wants to spend time with his family. Family matters and he knows that."

As far as I'm concerned, he's always played a team game...he's just not as good now as he was a few years ago.

 

[DaRizzle]

no hes not as good as a few years ago...but still better than Roy

 

[Minstrel]

no hes not as good as a few years ago...but still better than Roy

Yes, I've already said that.

 

[DaRizzle]

we've already had this argument

 

[Further]

As of right now, I think perimeter players would be
James


Paul
Kobe
Wade

Parker
Roy
Pierce
D Williams

Ginobobili, Harris, Bullups, Johnson, Durant and others

I would say that Roy is clearly in the third tier right now, but will move up to second tier this coming year with only James clearly above him.

 

[huevonkiller]

Paul is significantly better than Kobe at this point. Kobe is no longer at his peak. If Roy surpasses any of the perimeter players ahead of him (James, Paul, Wade, Kobe) this season, it'll be Kobe. Paul is just barely behind James. Kobe is solidly behind both.

No not really, Kobe's individual playoff run was the most impressive this season. If we go by Regular season then yeah Paul could be better since Bryant has to defer and save something for later at his age and in his situation. Defensively Kobe has the potential to be much better than Paul, it is what cost Chris the MVP back in 07-08. Bryant's usually still better on D throughout the year.

 

[DaRizzle]

I would say that Roy is clearly in the third tier right now, but will move up to second tier this coming year with only James clearly above him.

I didnt know GOD had a sense of humor!

 

[Further]

I didnt know GOD had a sense of humor!

Your existence proves that GOD has a sense of humor!


I am not saying that Roy will be the second best in the NBA, above Paul, wade and Kobe for example, but that Roy will be on Par with those three and a valid argument could be made that any of those players is the best. James I think will still clearly be the best.

 

[Minstrel]

No not really, Kobe's individual playoff run was the most impressive this season. If we go by Regular season then yeah Paul could be better since Bryant has to defer and save something for later at his age and in his situation.

Having to play at a lower level due to age is a reason why players decline. You're essentially admitting that Kobe is worse now. "Ability level" isn't defined by what you believe the player can do in a single game...it's by what he does actually do on average.

Paul was way ahead of Bryant in terms of production.

Defensively Kobe has the potential to be much better than Paul

He has the potential to be better. That's not very relevant. What's relevant is actually being better. I'd probably rather have Kobe on defense, but the edge isn't enough to overcome Paul's large advantage in production.

As for all the "he has to defer" excuses, that's a great way to make claims like "Paul Pierce is actually better than Kobe...he just has to share the ball with Garnett, Allen and Rondo" and such. I'm pretty sure you'd (rightly) reject such claims. But you engage in such justifications for Kobe.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Watching Bryant this season it was almost shocking how his athleticism has declined. He's getting to where Jordan was as a member of the Wizards. But like Jordan, he has developed a game that enables him to conserve his energy. He can still get up there once in a while, but he's certainly not in (say) Dwyane Wade's league athletically.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Paul is significantly better than Kobe at this point. Kobe is no longer at his peak. If Roy surpasses any of the perimeter players ahead of him (James, Paul, Wade, Kobe) this season, it'll be Kobe. Paul is just barely behind James. Kobe is solidly behind both.

Agreed. When Kobe had teammates as crappy as Paul had this season, the Lakers missed the playoffs. And Kobe was younger then.

 

[DaRizzle]

Agreed. When Kobe had teammates as crappy as Paul had this season, the Lakers missed the playoffs. And Kobe was younger then.

lol...way to make up history

Kwame Brown (no hands), Brian Cook(cant dribble), Smush Parker(no brain), Aaron Mckie(older than dirt), Bynum (no minutes), Farmar (rookie), Turiaf (heart surgery), Mihm (no ankles)....all he had was Odom.

Yeah...he got that team up 3-1 against PHX in the first round

David West, Peja, and Tyson are FAAAAAAAAR better than what Kobe had that year my friend....but go ahead making stuff up if you want

 

[Rastapopoulos]

lol...way to make up history

Kwame Brown (no hands), Brian Cook(cant dribble), Smush Parker(no brain), Aaron Mckie(older than dirt), Bynum (no minutes), Farmar (rookie), Turiaf (heart surgery), Mihm (no ankles)....all he had was Odom.

Yeah...he got that team up 3-1 against PHX in the first round

David West, Peja, and Tyson are FAAAAAAAAR better than what Kobe had that year my friend....but go ahead making stuff up if you want

Thanks for the green light! And while on the subject of "making stuff up"
1. I was talking about the Lakers team that missed the playoffs. Not even Kobe could get a team out of the playoffs up 3-1 in the first round.
2. The team that missed the playoffs had Caron Butler and Lamar Odom.

Let's do what you did with this year's Hornets:

Tyson Chandler - no offense, ankle so bad he failed a physical
David West - nowhere near as talented as Odom
Peja - broken down relic with a cranky back
...erm - who else they got?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Here's a thought: no doubt Lakers' fans are convinced the Lakers should be firm faves for the title in 2010. How about if Phil Jackson retired? Or, how about if Jackson and Cleveland's Brown switched jobs? Who would you bet on then?

Let's just remember how well the Lakers did with Tomjanovich or Rambis as coach. How invincible was Kobe then?

 

[huevonkiller]

Having to play at a lower level due to age is a reason why players decline. You're essentially admitting that Kobe is worse now. "Ability level" isn't defined by what you believe the player can do in a single game...it's by what he does actually do on average.

Paul was way ahead of Bryant in terms of production.

The playoffs are a grueling stretch of games, not a "single" game. Kobe's been the most superior in his last 44 playoff games.

Paul gave up over 19 PER defensively in the playoffs in 07-08. Bryant has been much much better when it has gotten to playoff time, he's just on another level defensively. He gave up 9 and 10 PER at the point/shooting guard positions. While Trevor Ariza was getting toasted by Melo, Kobe locked up Billups then switched onto Melo and locked him up the rest of the series.

There's no bias on my part he had 28 PER after the first round against the best competition in the post-season, and deferred against the Jazz when his load wasn't needed. As has been the case all year he plays better against the more talented squads, when he needs to carry his team.

He has the potential to be better. That's not very relevant. What's relevant is actually being better. I'd probably rather have Kobe on defense, but the edge isn't enough to overcome Paul's large advantage in production.

Actually, it is quite a huge difference, as has been the case the last couple of years. Kobe also takes on multiple positions defensively which Paul cannot. He plays the Pippen role defensively, meaning he has to take on the best perimeter player.

As for all the "he has to defer" excuses, that's a great way to make claims like "Paul Pierce is actually better than Kobe...he just has to share the ball with Garnett, Allen and Rondo" and such. I'm pretty sure you'd (rightly) reject such claims. But you engage in such justifications for Kobe.

Kobe was the best defender in the playoffs and literally outplayed his Peers, nothing hypothetically. Pierce has never been a superstar, he has no case and that is a bad example overall. He outplayed Paul individually throughout the last two seasons. The post-season should be weighed more heavily than the rest of the season, I'm not using intangibles the production is right there in front of you, as are the Share of post-season wins Bryant contributed.

 

[huevonkiller]

Here's a thought: no doubt Lakers' fans are convinced the Lakers should be firm faves for the title in 2010. How about if Phil Jackson retired? Or, how about if Jackson and Cleveland's Brown switched jobs? Who would you bet on then?

Let's just remember how well the Lakers did with Tomjanovich or Rambis as coach. How invincible was Kobe then?

They actually were going to make the playoffs even then, until Bryant got injured.

 

[Minstrel]

The playoffs are a grueling stretch of games, not a "single" game. Kobe's been the most superior in his last 44 playoff games.

Paul gave up over 19 PER defensively in the playoffs in 07-08. Bryant has been much much better when it has gotten to playoff time, he's just on another level defensively. He gave up 9 and 10 PER at the point/shooting guard positions. While Trevor Ariza was getting toasted by Melo, Kobe locked up Billups then switched onto Melo and locked him up the rest of the series.

There's no bias on my part he had 28 PER after the first round against the best competition in the post-season, and deferred against the Jazz when his load wasn't needed. As has been the case all year he plays better against the more talented squads, when he needs to carry his team.

Bias is cherry-picking a few games to decide talent levels. How about Paul's previous year's playoff PER, when he had a nearly 31 PER in the playoffs? Paul's playoff average in PER is higher than Kobe's.

Actually, it is quite a huge difference, as has been the case the last couple of years. Kobe also takes on multiple positions defensively which Paul cannot. He plays the Pippen role defensively, meaning he has to take on the best perimeter player.

Having watched a lot of Lakers games, I don't agree with this at all. Kobe's best defensive years were when Shaq was there, when Kobe was younger and had to carry less offensive load. He's lost quickness and expends more energy on the offensive end now...he's an adequate defender who can be excellent in flashes. He's definitely not an excellent defender most of the time.

Kobe was the best defender in the playoffs and literally outplayed his Peers, nothing hypothetically. Pierce has never been a superstar, he has no case and that is a bad example overall.

It's not a bad example to reject the "He has to defer to teammates, if not his numbers would be much better" logic. You can use that sort of speculation at any time and make up the numbers you think the player would put up on a different team.

I'm obviously not saying Pierce IS better than Kobe. I'm saying that your logic could be used that way and it would be equally invalid. Speculating about what a player could do in a different situation is neither here nor there. Kobe has to share the ball with two other good offensive players (Gasol and Odom)...that's far from unusual, to the point that we need to throw out his numbers. He's way behind Paul in production.

Your only argument seems to be "If you look at this year's playoff numbers for Paul and Kobe, Kobe is better...ignore everything else." I can also cherry-pick a stretch of games to make Pierce better than Kobe. Or Roy better than James. Taking into account the entire sample, regular season and playoffs, for the last couple of years, Kobe isn't as good as Paul.

 

[elcap15]

Thanks for the green light! And while on the subject of "making stuff up"
1. I was talking about the Lakers team that missed the playoffs. Not even Kobe could get a team out of the playoffs up 3-1 in the first round.
2. The team that missed the playoffs had Caron Butler and Lamar Odom.

Let's do what you did with this year's Hornets:

Tyson Chandler - no offense, ankle so bad he failed a physical
David West - nowhere near as talented as Odom
Peja - broken down relic with a cranky back
...erm - who else they got?

Both Kobe and Lamar were out with injuries for a significant part of that year. It was really just Caron and Chuck Atkins.

 

[elcap15]

I expect Roy to have his best season yet. He should be mentioned as an elite player. Top 10 easy

 

[maxiep]

I'd love to think Brandon is going to take yet another step, but I think next year will look an awful lot like this past one. And that's not chopped liver. I just don't think either as a person or as a franchise, Roy or the Blazers are built like the K*be and the L*kers, Paul and the Hornets or LeBron and the Cavs.

The big step up this year I think will be Aldridge and Oden.

 

[Idog1976]

I'd love to think Brandon is going to take yet another step, but I think next year will look an awful lot like this past one. And that's not chopped liver. I just don't think either as a person or as a franchise, Roy or the Blazers are built like the K*be and the L*kers, Paul and the Hornets or LeBron and the Cavs.

The big step up this year I think will be Aldridge and Oden.

I have to agree here. I definitely think we will see the biggest improvement in Oden and possibly LMA. I expect Oden to take a major leap by the mid-point of the season. If he hasn't shown more sustained periods of dominance by then I might begin to worry.

I also think that while Roy can improve aspects of his game, I'm not sure he can take another huge step. He is already a top 7 player. He might become a top 6 guy if Duncan stops being able to avoid Ponce De Leon in the everglades every year. I hear tell that Duncan owes Ponce a chest full of pieces of 8, but has successfully been putting him off for 400+ years. Ponce kind of spaced it during the 80's and 90's while Duncan "pretended" to grow up in the Virgin Islands. When Ponce remembered again after watching the last Spurs Championship he was royally pissed off. Supposedly Ponce almost caught Duncan on his last trip to the fountain, so Tim might not have risked it this summer. We'll see this fall.

 

[tlongII]

B-Roy gets his first ring this season. Guaransheed.

 

[KingSpeed]

Every year I underestimate his potential and he continues to improve more than I thought possible. Well, I ain't underestimating him any longer. I say by the end of this season, he will be on par with Kobe, Paul and the other superstar guards of the NBA. He will be legitimately considered for MVP of the NBA this coming season. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Roy already is a superstar.

 

[huevonkiller]

Bias is cherry-picking a few games to decide talent levels. How about Paul's previous year's playoff PER, when he had a nearly 31 PER in the playoffs? Paul's playoff average in PER is higher than Kobe's.

Right so Kobe actually being a better player all of 2007-2008 including the post-season, is being biased? Let's be honest, you just looked at PER on basketball-reference and thought that was the end, when you can see it is much closer taking into account Roland's figures on this subject. It is cool brah no big deal. ;]

How am I cherry picking? He gave up about 19 PER all of 2007-2008, and again was unspectacular defensively this year. The difference is indeed huge on that end.

Having watched a lot of Lakers games, I don't agree with this at all. Kobe's best defensive years were when Shaq was there, when Kobe was younger and had to carry less offensive load. He's lost quickness and expends more energy on the offensive end now...he's an adequate defender who can be excellent in flashes. He's definitely not an excellent defender most of the time.

He outplayed Paul easily on D and Wade for example. There is simply no way you can knock what Bryant did Defensively, 9 then 10 at the two positions he guards speaks for itself. Yes he was also a monster before when he was in his early twenties, that has nothing to do with this discussion though.

It's not a bad example to reject the "He has to defer to teammates, if not his numbers would be much better" logic. You can use that sort of speculation at any time and make up the numbers you think the player would put up on a different team.

It is pretty awful because Pierce didn't outplay any superstars throughout the entire post-season, so the example was not comparable.

I'm obviously not saying Pierce IS better than Kobe. I'm saying that your logic could be used that way and it would be equally invalid. Speculating about what a player could do in a different situation is neither here nor there. Kobe has to share the ball with two other good offensive players (Gasol and Odom)...that's far from unusual, to the point that we need to throw out his numbers. He's way behind Paul in production.

No because you made it sound like I was talking hypothetically, when the production is right there as I said.

Your only argument seems to be "If you look at this year's playoff numbers for Paul and Kobe, Kobe is better...ignore everything else." I can also cherry-pick a stretch of games to make Pierce better than Kobe. Or Roy better than James. Taking into account the entire sample, regular season and playoffs, for the last couple of years, Kobe isn't as good as Paul.

No my argument is throughout the entire two seasons. And given that their output is close, Kobe's top 5 Win Shares All-Time this post-season is nothing to discard. He was carrying the team on the perimeter and defensively with Trevor/Fish struggling one-on-one on D. You said Chris is "much much" better, when in fact this is far from the truth, as I said before I can just refer to Roland's amusing numbers.

 

[Further]

Roy already is a superstar.

I knew somebody would say this. Superstar is not a defined term, so what one person considers a superstar, another person might just consider a star. Personally, I would consider Roy a star in the past, like D. Williams and Joe Johnson. Both considered excellent players, but a step behind from the super-elite like Lebron, Kobe, Wade and Paul. All I am saying is that Roy will make that jump up to being considered in the same grouping as those players, perhaps with the exception of Lebron.