OT Russell Westbrook - Least Valuable Player

[KingSpeed]

And team is 1-2. That's all I care about.

0-2. My post already said he lost 2 games and that it was his fault.

 

[Strenuus]

0-2. My post already said he lost 2 games and that it was his fault.

I wasn't correcting you, I was just stating that in his 3 triple doubles, his team is 1-2.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

There were a few posts in this thread that got past the long winded butthurt sounding op and got to the heart of the matter. Scott Brooks. If that guy hasn't sold his soul to Satan to keep his job I don't know what else it could be.

Russell Westbrook is very talented. MVP he is not. With a coach who could get him to play team ball, who knows?

 

[BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94]

I don't have Curry in the MVP race for the same reason I don't have any Atlanta Hawk or Blazer; the team is just too deep and balanced. Sure Curry is their best player but without Klay or Bogut they aren't a top 3 team. Without Curry their still a solid playoff team.

Pains me to say it but Harden is the clear favorite at this moment. He has the least help and elevates his team the most with his play.

I kind of hope Harden wins so it'll be more of an epic choke job when he struggles against playoff defenses and they get bounced in the first round.

If I had a vote for MVP, it'd be for LeBron. He is simply the best player on the floor every night and he makes everyone around him a better player. Hell, even Love is looking average on defense now.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Over-rated - sure. Not a legit MVP candidate - true. LVP? In a league with guys like Josh Smith, that seems over-the-top.

BTW, I agree that Brooks is not blameless here.

 

[OneLifeToLive]

Early in his career, I liked him. Loved his talent.Always wanted to see Portland make a move for him. But I think as time has gone on, his attitude has worn on me. I don't like near as much.

But you know a lil closer to his attitude what he exudes and what he is to far off from one of the best players in the game in LBJ. I liked the comparison I read. It's almost a mini me version of James. The way he plays and how comes across. Granted, he hasn't learned that the game isn't about him and that it is a team game. But if he ever does OKC or whatever team he is on will benefit.

 

[blue9]

As much as I hate Harden, he is way more deserving than Westbrick. And the leading MVP candidate should be Curry.

Only because of team record. When it comes to playing basketball Westbrook is far superior to Harden in every way imaginable (other than shooting 3s). I have zero respect for Harden's game. Westbrook actually attempts basketball plays and tries to put the ball through the basket every time he takes a shot. Whereas with Harden he's less concerned about making the shot than he is in trying to dupe someone into a foul call. Westbrook plays basketball. I don't even know what to call the game that Harden plays.

 

[BBert]

I agree with the underlying message of the post though. He isn't the leagues MVP. Does he deserve mention? Why not.

Sure. Mention him.

Just not nonstop without taking a breath or discussing anything else including the basketball game being played in front of you (not you) for three fucking hours.

 

[BBert]

Rasheedfan: Great work! LMFAO

 

[Draco]

For God's sakes, are you kidding? How anyone could watch Westbrook play his heart out for the last three games and score three consecutive triple doubles and still call him a "loser" is beyond me.

Some observers would rather endlessly criticize a players than give props for both the benefits and weaknesses they provide. Similar to glass half empty/half full view points. Optimist vs pessimist. Sure Westbrook has real weaknesses but he has major strengths as well. He's not a Josh Smith cancer he is more like a Rasheed Wallace or Dennis Rodman transcendent enigma that could benefit from a better framework around him.

 

[riverman]

He's like Kobe..great talent, lousy teammate. Guy went for a scoring title in the allstar game for no apparent reason. We'll see how many seasons he can keep this up.

 

[bulls_with_booz]

Westbrook is weird. I think he's amazing when he's on but when he's off he is a negative on the court. It's great to see a boxscore that says 20, or 30+ points...but not on like 10/35 shooting lol (bad math) so no I think babyfaced Curry is the MVP with Kerr COY. Story is just great.

 

[riverman]

Westbrook is weird. I think he's amazing when he's on but when he's off he is a negative on the court. It's great to see a boxscore that says 20, or 30+ points...but not on like 10/35 shooting lol (bad math) so no I think babyfaced Curry is the MVP with Kerr COY. Story is just great.

I've got to give COY to Budenholzer (sp) in Atlanta...he did it with no superstars on the roster at all after Ferry was fired. To me the Hawks story is the most impressive considering where they came from and how they did it

 

[bulls_with_booz]

Bud is a good story as well. Treadmill team took the next step under his wing. He is also a a product of Pop that pussy-of-vich. Would make sense giving him the COY.

 

[Boob-No-More]

The hate for Westbrook is understandable. But to hate on his skills is laughable. I suspect that if Durant was playing but Westbrook was out we would have coasted to an easy (or easier) win. As it was we escaped by the skin on our teeth. Sure, Westbrook doesn't get the mental aspect of the game as well as a serious MVP candidate should, but he's an amazing player.

Where did I hate on his skills? I said he has the ability to make his teammates better, but, more often than not, chooses not to. I also said that OKC is scary good when Westbrook reigns in his ego and uses his unique physical talents to create scoring opportunities for his teammates.

I also consider decision making a skill - a VERY important one, especially with the game on the line. In those situations, knowing what to do is every bit as important as having great physical skills. That's where Westbrook comes up far short of being a legitimate MVP candidate. He has GREAT physical tools, but is a HORRIBLE decision maker.

The whole LVP thing was a bit tongue in cheek, however, there is a very distinct correlation between how much Westbrook tries to take over the game vs. his team's chances of winning (1-5 won:loss record when he attempts 30+ FG and 1-6 when he scores 38+ points). The closer the game, the bigger the stage, the more likely Westbrook is to resort to hero ball and cost his team the win. That's not hating on him, it's an easily verifiable fact.

BNM

 

[KeepOnRollin]

Post is incredible BNM as usual but just one thing. Didn't Westbrook and Durant both miss some games together this year? So while you are correct on the 14-18 without Durant then it could also be better (only slightly) if OKC fans said we are 14-13 with Westbrook playing hero ball and 0-5 with both guys out (just made up numbers as I haven't checked the real win/losses).

At any rate, I am also glad that Westbrick thinks he needs to play hero ball! It is going to guarantee we win the division.

Is there a site where I can figure this out without going through the game logs one by one? Of course I know that OKC won this last game without both Westbrook and Durant. Talking more of games earlier this year.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

The Kevin Love of point guards.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Haters gonna hate

But is it really hate if it's true?

I notice you didn't bother to even attempt to refute one single point I made. Oh well, facts are facts.

Here's another fact for you...

Russel Westbrook currently has a USG% of 38.00 - the third highest USG% in the history of the league. Here's the top 3 all-time single season leaders in USG%

Kobe Bryant, 2005-06:
USG% = 38.74
PPG = 35.4

Michael Jordan, 1986-87:
USG% = 38.29
PPG = 37.1

Russell Westbrook, 2014-15
USG% = 38.00
PPG = 26.5

That's a HUGE drop off in scoring for a guy who is using up possessions at the third highest rate in league history. If Westbrook keeps up his high USG%, it will be the first time in league history that a player has used 38% of his team's possessions and failed to average at least 35 PPG - and he's not even close. It's almost mind boggling that someone's USG% can be that high, but their scoring average can be that low, until you look at the factors used to calculate USG% (FGA, FTA and TOV). Westbrook has a very high number of FGA, which he makes at a low percentage, and a lot of TOVs. A USG% of 38 with a scoring average of 26.5 PPG is a very inefficient use of your teams possessions.

And, if you go back and look at those Bulls and Lakers rosters, it will become very, very clear why MJ and Kobe were using up so many possessions.

Kobe's highest scoring teammates that year were:
Lamar Odom - 14.8 PPG
Smush Parker - 11.5 PPG
Chris Mihm - 10.2 PPG

No one else on that team averaged more than 8 PPG and those were career highs for Parker and Mihm. Parker and Mihm actually had career years playing next to high USG% Kobe.

In MJ's case, his highest scoring teammates were:
Charles Oakley - 14.5 PPG
John Paxson - 11.3 PPG
Gene Banks - 9.7 PPG

No one else on that team averaged more than 9 PPG. That was a career high scoring average for Paxson, and nearly so for Oakley (career high 14.6 PPG).

Compare that to Westbrook's current teammates:
Kevin Durant - 25.4 PPG
Enes Kanter - 15.8 PPG
Serge Ibaka - 14.2 PPG
Dion Waiters - 11.1 PPG
D.J. Augustin - 10.0 PPG
Anthony Morrow - 9.4 PPG

Even if you exclude 4-time NBA scoring champion and reigning MVP Kevin Durant, it's clear Westbrook is surrounded by teammates who are more capable scorers than Kobe and MJ were in their record setting USG% seasons. The fact remains the same, Russell Westbrook's selfish hero ball style of play steals shots from his more efficient scoring teammates and hurts his teams chances of winning - especially when Durant is playing. It's true Durant has missed over half of OKC's games (but has played in 27 of Westbrook's 45 games this season, exactly 60% of Westbrook's games).

And again, this is not an isolated occurrence. Westbrook's USG% is also ridiculously high during the playoffs, even though Durant has never missed a playoff game Westbrook has played in. Last year, Kevin Durant was the regular season MVP and led the league in scoring, for the 4th time, at 32.0 PPG. Here's Durant's and Westbrook's stats for the 2013-14 season:

Kevin Durant:
32.0 PPG
.503 FG%
.391 3FG%
.873 FT%

Russell Westbrook:
21.8 PPG
.437 FG%
.318 3FG%
.826 FT%

Durant is CLEARLY a much more capable, more efficient scorer than Westbrook, yet here are their post season USG% stats:

Kevin Durant:
USG% = 31.6

Russell Westbrook:
USG% = 34.3

So why, is your PG using up more of your team's possessions than the league's MVP and leading scorer? Simple: hero ball. Again, FGA, FTA and TOV are the three components used to calculate USG%. Westbrook takes, and misses, way to many FGs and turns the ball over excessively. Once again, OKC would be a far more dangerous team if Westbrook would reign in his own ego for the good of the team and share the ball with Durant (and his other teammates) more.

But, that will never happen. Again, this is not an isolated incident. It's part of an ongoing pattern that goes all the way back to Westbrook's second post season - the 2011 playoffs (Westbrook USG% = 34.4, league leading scorer Durant's USG% = 29.0).

Yes, Westbrook is a very talented player who always plays hard. The problem is, he also plays stupid and it hurts his team. The bigger the stage, the higher the stakes, the closer the game, the more likely Westbrook goes into hero ball mode and costs is team the win. In Westbrook's case, I don't think it should be called hero ball, it should be called zero ball, as his field goal attempts increase, his team's chances of winning approach zero.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Is there a site where I can figure this out without going through the game logs one by one? Of course I know that OKC won this last game without both Westbrook and Durant. Talking more of games earlier this year.

They mentioned it during the OKC-LAL game broadcast, OKC was 4-10 (now 5-10) in games both Durant and Westbrook missed.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

BTW, I have a theory that Westbrook's FGA and USG% go up considerably when the game is on national TV. The bigger the audience the more overwhelming his desire to play the hero. Both of his last two games (vs. PHO and POR) were on national TV and Westbrook jacked up 38 and 32 shots in those two losses. His USG% has also always gone up considerably in the playoffs - which are nationally televised.

I don't have the patience, nor the desire, to go back through all his games and calculate his FGA and USG% for nationally televised games versus those shown only on the local Cow Town stations after the evening farm report, but I'd be really surprised if both his FGA and USG% weren't considerably higher for games televised nationally than those carried locally.

BNM

 

[BlazerWookee]

Can a pathological narcissist really be a sociopath, too?

 

[Sinobas]

I've used these EXACT same arguments about LaMarcus Aldridge, and find it ironic that some people here who have been pissed off by that are agreeing with this.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I've used these EXACT same arguments about LaMarcus Aldridge, and find it ironic that some people here who have been pissed off by that are agreeing with this.

No, you haven't used the EXACT same arguments about LaMarcus Aldridge, not even close. So, please stop polluting this thread with your lies. The fact that you actually believe the EXACT same arguments are true about Aldridge just further illustrates how blinded you are by your hatred of our best player.

Just a FEW of the EXACT arguments I presented against Westbrook:

He has taken 30+ shots six times this season and the Thunder are 1-5 in those 6 games. LaMarcus Aldridge has taken 30+ shots three times in his entire nine year NBA career. The Blazers are 2-1 in those 3 games (3-1 if you count Game 1 of the Rockets series when Aldridge scored 46 points on 17-31 shooting). When Westbrook takes 30+ shots, his team loses. When Aldridge takes 30+ shots, his team wins.

Westbrook missed 26 shots in the PHO. Aldridge has never missed 20 shots is a game in his entire career.

Westbrook consistently freezes out the 4-time NBA scoring champ and reigning MVP in the 4th quarter of close games, especially in the playoffs. Where to begin. First, Aldridge doesn't have a 4-time scoring champ and former MVP as a teammate. Second, Aldridge doesn't initiate the offense, so he can't possibly freeze out his teammates the way Westbrook does.

Westbrook is on pace to have the 3rd highest USG% in the history of the league. Aldridge is on pace to tie for the 183rd highest USG% in league history. Westbrook scores 26.5 PPG on USG% = 38.0. No other player who has had a USG% => 38.0 has averaged less than 35 PPG. Aldridge scores 23.3 PPG on USG% = 30.0. The history of the league is FULL of players that have had USG% > 30.0 and PPG less than Aldridge's 23.3. In fact, there are many, many instances of USG% >30 and PPG <20. Westbrook's USG% is historically high and his USG%/PPG is historically low. Aldridge's are nothing of the sort. His USG%, the highest of his career, and his USG%/PPG are both very typical for a team's leading scorer.

I could go on and on (things like OKC is 10-12 when Westbrook has 20+ FGA and the Blazers are 19-9 when Aldridge has 20+ FGA - when Westbrook takes 20+ shots, his team loses, when Aldridge takes 20+ shots, his team wins.), etc., but why bother. You won't listen. You're mind is made up.

BNM

 

[Sinobas]

Your pants are down.

Your whole argument centers around points per shot.

LA's points per shot this year = 1.16
Russell Westbrooks points per shot = 1.27

Buh-bye.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Your pants are down.

Your whole argument centers around points per shot.

LA's points per shot this year = 1.16
Russell Westbrooks points per shot = 1.27

Buh-bye.

No, it doesn't. I never mentioned points per shot once. Do you not understand the meaning of the word EXACT???

My most persuasive argument against Westbrook is that as his FGA increases, his team's chances of winning decreases dramatically. The opposite it true for Aldridge.

BNM

 

[bulls_with_booz]

somebody hit somebody!

 

[Boob-No-More]

Westbrook uses 8 more possessions to score 3 more PPG. That's not a very efficient use of 8 possessions.

BNM

 

[Strenuus]

I'm still looking for where BNM used points per shot.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I'm still looking for where BNM used points per shot.

Silly boy! You're taking the meaning of the word EXACT literally. This is the internet where, evidently, EXACT means kinda, sorta, maybe something a little bit similar, but in fact different.

BNM

 

[Jayps16]

No, you haven't used the EXACT same arguments about LaMarcus Aldridge, not even close. So, please stop polluting this thread with your lies. The fact that you actually believe the EXACT same arguments are true about Aldridge just further illustrates how blinded you are by your hatred of our best player.

Just a FEW of the EXACT arguments I presented against Westbrook:

He has taken 30+ shots six times this season and the Thunder are 1-5 in those 6 games. LaMarcus Aldridge has taken 30+ shots three times in his entire nine year NBA career. The Blazers are 2-1 in those 3 games (3-1 if you count Game 1 of the Rockets series when Aldridge scored 46 points on 17-31 shooting). When Westbrook takes 30+ shots, his team loses. When Aldridge takes 30+ shots, his team wins.

Westbrook missed 26 shots in the PHO. Aldridge has never missed 20 shots is a game in his entire career.

Westbrook consistently freezes out the 4-time NBA scoring champ and reigning MVP in the 4th quarter of close games, especially in the playoffs. Where to begin. First, Aldridge doesn't have a 4-time scoring champ and former MVP as a teammate. Second, Aldridge doesn't initiate the offense, so he can't possibly freeze out his teammates the way Westbrook does.

Westbrook is on pace to have the 3rd highest USG% in the history of the league. Aldridge is on pace to tie for the 183rd highest USG% in league history. Westbrook scores 26.5 PPG on USG% = 38.0. No other player who has had a USG% => 38.0 has averaged less than 35 PPG. Aldridge scores 23.3 PPG on USG% = 30.0. The history of the league is FULL of players that have had USG% > 30.0 and PPG less than Aldridge's 23.3. In fact, there are many, many instances of USG% >30 and PPG <20. Westbrook's USG% is historically high and his USG%/PPG is historically low. Aldridge's are nothing of the sort. His USG%, the highest of his career, and his USG%/PPG are both very typical for a team's leading scorer.

I could go on and on (things like OKC is 10-12 when Westbrook has 20+ FGA and the Blazers are 19-9 when Aldridge has 20+ FGA - when Westbrook takes 20+ shots, his team loses, when Aldridge takes 20+ shots, his team wins.), etc., but why bother. You won't listen. You're mind is made up.

BNM

Let me preface this post with - Fuck Westbrook

But

Why are you using a points per game and usage? Westbrook plays 3.1mpg fewer than Aldridge, and the Thunder play at a different pace than the Blazers, using a per game stat and a per 100 stat in comparison is just strikes me as wrong.

Your ratio looks like:
W: 37.9/26.5 - 1.430
A: 30.0/23.3 - 1.288 (lower ratio is actually better here)
Or about a 10% difference.

But actually pace and minute adjusted it looks something like:
W: 37.9/40.6 - 0.933
A: 30.0/32.9 - 0.912 (again lower = better)
Or a difference of only ~2.5%

Compared to someone like Durant (0.776) or Curry (0.826) neither guy really stacks up with your ratio.