Science and Religion questions

[blazerboy30]

the only people trying to change the definition of atheist are the religious.

the primary (and semantically technically correct) definition has always been lack of belief in god. it has never necessarily implied an assertion that no gods exist.

a·the·ism
/ˈāTHēˌizəm/
Noun
The theory or belief that God does not exist.

Let me Google that for you

 

[TripTango]

a·the·ism
/ˈāTHēˌizəm/
Noun
The theory or belief that God does not exist.

Let me Google that for you

Since when does "theory or belief" imply certainty? "Atheism" is a statement of belief, not a statement of one's ability to verify.

 

[blazerboy30]

Since when does "theory or belief" imply certainty? "Atheism" is a statement of belief, not a statement of one's ability to verify.

It doesn't imply certainty. The same way that being a theist or religious doesn't imply certainty. An atheist has a set of beliefs that they can not prove, just like the religious.

 

[magnifier661]

Let me argue with myself since Denny can't use the weapon I just gave him....

So here is my argument. Since science has discovered that the entire mass/energy in the universe = zero; then it would only explain that all mass and energy in the universe always existed. If the entire universe has a value of zero, that means nothing was needed to add to the universe to create itself. It was always there.

So even though you say that mass cannot be create without mass; the mass was always there and always eternal. The only thing added to this universe was time; which started at point of the "Big bang"; when light was able to measure time.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

a·the·ism
/ˈāTHēˌizəm/
Noun
The theory or belief that God does not exist.

Let me Google that for you

I don't believe God exists. That could change literally any second and I would still have been an atheist for the past 6 years.

 

[magnifier661]

Since when does "theory or belief" imply certainty? "Atheism" is a statement of belief, not a statement of one's ability to verify.

Hey you blasphemer! Did you see that I credited you on your value of the universe lesson you gave me yesterday?

 

[magnifier661]

I don't believe God exists. That could change literally any second and I would still have been an atheist for the past 6 years.

Yeah most Christians were atheists before they became Christians.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Yeah most Christians were atheists before they became Christians.

No they weren't.. Most Christians were indoctrinated as children.

 

[TripTango]

It doesn't imply certainty. The same way that being a theist or religious doesn't imply certainty. An atheist has a set of beliefs that they can not prove, just like the religious.

I agree. But when you say "atheists who admit they are speculating are agnostic", you are implying that it is impossible to be an atheist without claiming certainty. Your definition cited above is not nearly so strict, and leaves open the possibility of someone being both atheist (because they do not believe in god) AND agnostic (because they acknowledge that it is impossible to empirically prove their belief correct).

 

[magnifier661]

No they weren't.. Most Christians were indoctrinated as children.

Most the Christians I know weren't. Got a link that supports your claim?

 

[VanillaGorilla]

It doesn't imply certainty. The same way that being a theist or religious doesn't imply certainty. An atheist has a set of beliefs that they can not prove, just like the religious.

The only belief that comes with the word atheism is not believing in a god. There is no set.

 

[blazerboy30]

I don't believe God exists. That could change literally any second and I would still have been an atheist for the past 6 years.

In definitions, wording and semantics matter.

You clearly don't understand the difference between: a) an absence of the belief in God and b) a belief that God doesn't exist.

It appears, as you just said, that you have an absence of a belief in God. If you are an atheist, then you have a true belief that God doesn't exist. Thus, you have a faith that you can't prove, just like the religious that you like to ridicule.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Most the Christians I know weren't. Got a link that supports your claim?

Do you?

 

[blazerboy30]

The only belief that comes with the word atheism is not believing in a god. There is no set.

I'll say it again, since you can't quite seem to understand:

In definitions, wording and semantics matter.

You clearly don't understand the difference between: a) an absence of the belief in God and b) a belief that God doesn't exist.

It appears, as you just said, that you have an absence of a belief in God. If you are an atheist, then you have a true belief that God doesn't exist. Thus, you have a faith that you can't prove, just like the religious that you like to ridicule.

 

[magnifier661]

The only belief that comes with the word atheism is not believing in a god. There is no set.

Ahhh but that's the problem just like Trip Tango mentioned. The true form of Atheism is not believing in God, but there is no certainty that God doesn't exist; therefore most Atheists must be agnostic in this regard. Being a true "Atheist" is hypocritical.

 

[TripTango]

Hey you blasphemer! Did you see that I credited you on your value of the universe lesson you gave me yesterday?

Yep -- you've done an excellent job of critiquing your earlier cosmological argument for the existence of god. =)

 

[blazerboy30]

I agree. But when you say "atheists who admit they are speculating are agnostic", you are implying that it is impossible to be an atheist without claiming certainty. Your definition cited above is not nearly so strict, and leaves open the possibility of someone being both atheist (because they do not believe in god) AND agnostic (because they acknowledge that it is impossible to empirically prove their belief correct).

My point is that atheism requires a set of beliefs just like a theist. If either of them are considered agnostic because they speculate, then both of them are agnostic for speculating.

 

[TripTango]

Ahhh but that's the problem just like Trip Tango mentioned. The true form of Atheism is not believing in God, but there is no certainty that God doesn't exist; therefore most Atheists must be agnostic in this regard. Being a true "Atheist" is hypocritical.

Not at all.

Every atheist I know personally ALSO considers themselves to be agnostic. The two are not incompatible. Again: atheism is a statement of belief. Agnosticism is a statement of knowledge.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

I'll say it again, since you can't quite seem to understand:

You can say it as much as you're little heart desires, boy. You'll be wrong every time.

 

[magnifier661]

Do you?

Absolutely. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

In this census; the value of those that said they were brought up with religion as their most important thing in their life is far skewed to the actual Christians in the United States. In fact, it dwarfs the actual amount of Christians in the United States.

 

[magnifier661]

Not at all.

Every atheist I know personally ALSO considers themselves to be agnostic. The two are not incompatible. Again: atheism is a statement of belief. Agnosticism is a statement of knowledge.

Okay so Atheism is the Faith and agnostic is the facts?

 

[porkchopexpress]

Absolutely. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

In this census; the value of those that said they were brought up with religion as their most important thing in their life is far skewed to the actual Christians in the United States. In fact, it dwarfs the actual amount of Christians in the United States.

what stat are you pulling from the wiki page? Just curious.

 

[magnifier661]

Yep -- you've done an excellent job of critiquing your earlier cosmological argument for the existence of god. =)

Hey now!!!! I have a response to that Cosmological argument! I just wont say it until more people get on board with the science.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Ahhh but that's the problem just like Trip Tango mentioned. The true form of Atheism is not believing in God, but there is no certainty that God doesn't exist; therefore most Atheists must be agnostic in this regard. Being a true "Atheist" is hypocritical.

Atheism is a religion in the same way that bald is a hair color and not collecting stamps is a hobby.

You are right about what you call "true" atheism though. There are very few atheists like that though, which is why it's ridiculous for all the be lumped into that group. It's like lumping all of you in with fundamentalists.

 

[magnifier661]

what stat are you pulling from the wiki page? Just curious.

The majority of Americans (73–76%) identify themselves as Christians and about 15–20% have no religious affiliation.

countered with:

Despite a high level of religious adherence, only 9% of Americans in a 2008 poll said religion was the most important thing in their life, compared with 45% who said family was paramount in their life and 17% who said money and career was paramount.

 

[blazerboy30]

You can say it as much as you're little heart desires, boy. You'll be wrong every time.

Tell it to those that created the definitions... little guy.

I'm not sure if the problem is your lack of reading comprehension or lack of logical thinking. Either way, you make yourself look foolish.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Absolutely. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

In this census; the value of those that said they were brought up with religion as their most important thing in their life is far skewed to the actual Christians in the United States. In fact, it dwarfs the actual amount of Christians in the United States.

That doesn't show what you think it shows. It's somewhat close, but that doesn't make it applicable. "most important thing in their life" ruins it.

 

[TripTango]

Okay so Atheism is the Faith and agnostic is the facts?

"Faith" is an odd word-choice there, but it's a catchy phrase, so I'll let it slide. =)

 

[magnifier661]

Atheism is a religion in the same way that bald is a hair color and not collecting stamps is a hobby.

You are right about what you call "true" atheism though. There are very few atheists like that though, which is why it's ridiculous for all the be lumped into that group. It's like lumping all of you in with fundamentalists.

Actually no. Atheism is a hair color like the color purple. Being bald is not even close to being the relevant.

And you are correct. It would be foolish of any theist to generalize the entire Atheist/Agnostic community, just like an Atheist generalizes a muslim to a Christian.

 

[magnifier661]

That doesn't show what you think it shows. It's somewhat close, but that doesn't make it applicable. "most important thing in their life" ruins it.

When it becomes the most important thing in your life; you try and force feed this belief to your children. If it isn't as important; then you just believe in God because it's right for you. You are more open for your children to believe in something else.