Second Round: J_Ray vs. Agoo101284

[DynastYWarrioR6]

Winner of this matchup will move on!

J_Ray

PG: John Stockton / Mark Jackson
SG: George Gervin / Mitch Richmond / Jerry Sloan / Raja Bell
SF: Larry Bird / Detlef Schrempf
PF: Shawn Kemp / Chris Webber
C: Dikembe Mutombo / Mark Eaton

Agoo101284
PG: Gary Payton / Chauncey Billups / Fat Lever
SG: Adrian Dantley / Paul Westphal
SF: Elgin Baylor / Larry Nance / Marques Johnson
PF: Dennis Rodman / Ben Wallace
C: Wilt Chamberlain / Spencer Haywood

 

[J_Ray]

Rotation:
PG: John Stockton / Mark Jackson
SG: George Gervin / Mitch Richmond / Jerry Sloan / Raja Bell
SF: Larry Bird / Detlef Schrempf
PF: Chris Webber / Shawn Kemp
C: Dikembe Mutombo / Mark Eaton[/COLOR]


So in this series, I'd start Chris Webber over Shawn Kemp to add a little more offense since Rodman is starting PF. In a series against his team, I'd probably bust out the Zone D to slow down Wilt and he also only has 1 position that has legitimate 3 point shooters I have to respect. Payton was a 31% career 3-pt shooter, while Billups is a 38% career 3-pt shooter, while the rest of his team is hardly a threat IMO. Another advantage I'd exploit is Dantley guarding Gervin on the defensive end, with Dantley playing SF/PF most his life, he doesn't have the D to stop Gervin 1-on-1 consistently. Outside of Wilt and his PG spots, he's got some very inefficient players also that would never put up the same #'s, just look at Baylor, the guy shot had a career shooting % of 40% in an ERA there was no 3-pt shot. He took a mass amount of shots a game to put up those high scoring totals, something he wouldn't get on this team w/o taking away from guys like Payton, Wilt, and Dantley who were more efficient. So against a zone D, the only factors on offense for him IMO would be Payton or Billups with Wilt or Rodman getting few offensive boards that wouldn't be a factor when his team is shooting below 40%. For if Wilt does find a way to be effective on the offensive end against the Zone, I can use Sloan, Raja Bell, and Mark Eaton off my bench to Hack-Shaq against Wilt who was a career 50% FT shooter. On the offensive end, I should have no problem scoring with 2 great playmakers in Stockton and Bird, while Mutumbo, C-Webb and Gervin do their share of finishing also.

 

[agoo]

I'm not sure why this is competitive at the moment to be completely honest.

J_Ray's assessment is completely underrating Elgin Baylor, who is one of the all-time great players ever. In my opinion, Baylor joins Jordan, Bird, Magic, and the Big O in the top five non-big men ever to play the game. Baylor's athletic ability will make Bird work for his points offensively and give him fits defensively. Dantley (who probably last played PF in high school or college, not sure where you got that) can score with Gervin, but wouldn't have to as he is my third option. Wilt dominates here and greatly neutralizes Mutombo's shot blocking and the lane would be left fairly open for Payton, Dantley, and Baylor to drive. Defensively, Gervin would have to contend with Wilt at the rim as Mutombo can be left free as needed. Baylor would make Bird work hard for his points, as I said previously, while Payton's defense would disrupt Stockton's rhythm in the offense. Add in my reboudning advantage at every position but SG, and I am a clear winner here.

 

[J_Ray]

I'm not sure why this is competitive at the moment to be completely honest.

J_Ray's assessment is completely underrating Elgin Baylor, who is one of the all-time great players ever. In my opinion, Baylor joins Jordan, Bird, Magic, and the Big O in the top five non-big men ever to play the game. Baylor's athletic ability will make Bird work for his points offensively and give him fits defensively. Dantley (who probably last played PF in high school or college, not sure where you got that) can score with Gervin, but wouldn't have to as he is my third option. Wilt dominates here and greatly neutralizes Mutombo's shot blocking and the lane would be left fairly open for Payton, Dantley, and Baylor to drive. Defensively, Gervin would have to contend with Wilt at the rim as Mutombo can be left free as needed. Baylor would make Bird work hard for his points, as I said previously, while Payton's defense would disrupt Stockton's rhythm in the offense. Add in my reboudning advantage at every position but SG, and I am a clear winner here.

No way Baylor is anywhere close to Jordan, Bird, Magic, or Big O, he was so inefficient and put up stats with massive amounts of shots. Baylor also played in an ERA where there were very few great athletes, while guys like Bird, Jordan, and Magic played against them every night. So saying Bird would have to work for his points and have "fits" trying to get points is crazy, because Bird simply put up points against just as great athletes during his time. Dantley may be able to score effectively in man-to-man but I already stated I would probably play zone defense, eliminating most of those mid-range and shots in the paint he'd usually get. He would have a lot more trouble scoring since he was never a long range shooter. Mutumbo's shotblocking wouldn't be neutralized in a zone, since he won't always be having to cover Wilt unless he was in his area. With modern day rules also, Wilt wouldn't be able to camp in the paint waiting for the ball and he'd also be going against someone his own size, not a guy 4-6 inches shorter than him. Then with a zone, he'd get doubled down where he would pass it out but you have no shooters to capitalize on the double teams. You didn't address how you would score against a zone defense with no real shooters on your team besides Billups. Stockton also put up his regular numbers against Payton during their days they went at it. Stockton was a hardnose, old school guy that didn't let Payton's "glove-like" defense stop him because he was just as physical back. Then with Wilt roaming and not covering Mutumbo on the offensive end, Mutumbo is still an elite O-Rebounder in his day, and will get easy putbacks which he was good at, that's if Wilt does alter a shot or doesn't get called for a foul. With your team being forced to take jumpers, it takes your team out of their element, which will hurt your offense, while my team will still be able to score efficiently even if you do have Wilt back there, so you obviously wouldn't be a "clear" winner.

 

[Celtic Fan]

I was interested in the stockton vs Payton match up, thought it'd be a real battle.

turns out Payton didn't really slow down Stockton at all

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=paytoga01&p2=stockjo01

Stockton shot .506 from the field vs Payton with a career average of .515 the difference is insignificant.
His assists and turnovers are on par with his career numbers and his scoring is slightly higher vs Payton.

Offensively Payton's FG% rises .020 and his scoring .7 ppg vs Stockton. His assists and turnovers are the same.

so Payton doesn't slow down Stockton at all and Stockton doesn't get lit up either.

 

[J_Ray]

I was interested in the stockton vs Payton match up, thought it'd be a real battle.

turns out Payton didn't really slow down Stockton at all

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=paytoga01&p2=stockjo01

Stockton shot .506 from the field vs Payton with a career average of .515 the difference is insignificant.
His assists and turnovers are on par with his career numbers and his scoring is slightly higher vs Payton.

Offensively Payton's FG% rises .020 and his scoring .7 ppg vs Stockton. His assists and turnovers are the same.

so Payton doesn't slow down Stockton at all and Stockton doesn't get lit up either.

That's a good run down, so Stockton wouldn't exactly get disrupted by Payton like I already said earlier. Utah also never had a shotblocker like Mutumbo during Stockton's prime when him and Payton duked it out.

 

[Celtic Fan]

heeeeeeeeeeeey that sounds like a diss to Greg Ostertag.. the Tag will not tolerate such abuse of his good name

 

[J_Ray]

heeeeeeeeeeeey that sounds like a diss to Greg Ostertag.. the Tag will not tolerate such abuse of his good name

LMAO Big Double Zero.....only if he was as good Mutumbo Utah would have at least two championship banners up right now

 

[Celtic Fan]

or if Jordan had stayed retired.....

only HE could have gotten away with that massive and obvious push off to get that jumper off.