Secular Morality

[MarAzul]

I asked Crowfoot for a link to the Secular Morality code yesterday after he used the phrase in one of his posts. He did not respond. So I thought I would see if I could find it myself, damn near anything that exist can be found with Google. Google didn't help much, nothing identifiable as a code was found.

There are a plethora of articles, mostly by athiest, pronouncing you do not need religion to have a moral code. most of these articles drone on about how religion is not required or God is not needed to be moral.

After reading about five of these, I get the picture. Yes you can claim to be an atheist, and declare God is a myth, totally irrelevant to living a moral life. Shoot, I even expect many sucessfully live their lives, reaffirming this position as often as they feel the need to justify their position.

But no one explains what the Secular Morality Code is. Some list an example here and there, don't kill, or the Golden rule is universal, God is not needed. However, it appears that all these good atheist borrow the Morality code from religion.

Did I overlook where the Secular Morality Code is documented? The Ten Commandment are engrave on the Supreme Court as well as the book of Moses. Where the heck is this Secular Morality?

 

[GriLtCheeZ]

first

 

[Eastoff]

I would agree that there are a lot of good rules to live by in the Bible. But many of the rules are changed or dropped entirely for what most agnostics and atheists accept.

Let's just take a look at the Ten Commandments as a starting ground:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. [nope we don't need that]

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me. [don't need any gods]

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. [don't worship prophets, or make someone into a god.]

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. [jesus christ, i'll do what I want!]

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. [We have a two days for a weekend in America, not just one! Enjoy them or work, it's up to you.]

12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you. [Respect those that raise you.]

13 “You shall not murder. [what He said]

14 “You shall not commit adultery. [Don't cheat, if you're unhappy break up first.]

15 “You shall not steal. [ditto, although piracy is blurry in my book]

16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. [don't lie]

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” [this seems kind of anti-'Merican, but still good to appreciate what you have]

 

[Denny Crane]

Open a law book and see the code.

 

[MarAzul]

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. [nope we don't need that]

Gosh, I am not quite sure we don't need something pretty heavy. This country seems like it's run like East bum fuck Egypt right now.

 

[Minstrel]

Secular morality isn't a specific code, it's generally a collective decision by society at any given time about what's acceptable and what isn't (in the modern era; in the more distant past, this would have been the same as the code of conduct given by the religion that held sway). In our culture, we have a system of laws that (imperfectly) reflect the morality of the society in general.

If you want an example of a secular moral code (not "the example," since there is no single code of secular morality), you could look at Immanuel Kant's formulation of universality (or, as he put it, the categorical imperative). In simple terms, this means that morality is actions that could be "universalized" (everyone could partake in it) while still maintaining a coherent society. So, then, murder is out because it's pretty much impossible to have a coherent society if anyone can murder anyone. Similarly for theft. This is an example of not needing a god in order to justify standards for behavior.

Religion has certainly held an important role in morality. Religion, for example, was about the only check on the behavior of nobility/aristocracy. Since they made the laws, they couldn't really be constrained by secular laws. However, for those that hewed to a religion (which was far from uncommon), the rule of "God" could modify their behavior.

Religion isn't necessary for morality, but it has been necessary at times as a rein on the materially powerful.

 

[magnifier661]

Open a law book and see the code.

I think Marazul's argument is on the "world view" of morality. What the U.S. could consider moral, maybe entirely different in China or Russia. Or possibly the separation in each state in the United States can create certain contradictions. I mean, you can kill a person for a certain crime, but it's not allowed in another. Or a 3rd strike in California will give you life, but have no relevance in Florida.

So the true question is:

For a naturalist, what would be the "Moral Code" that the general "World-view" outline?

 

[Denny Crane]

I think Marazul's argument is on the "world view" of morality. What the U.S. could consider moral, maybe entirely different in China or Russia. Or possibly the separation in each state in the United States can create certain contradictions. I mean, you can kill a person for a certain crime, but it's not allowed in another. Or a 3rd strike in California will give you life, but have no relevance in Florida.

So the true question is:

For a naturalist, what would be the "Moral Code" that the general "World-view" outline?

World view?

Open an International Law book.

 

[MarAzul]

Open a law book and see the code.

Ah! Which one, there are 50. In Oregon, it's call the Oregon Revised Statutes and covers much more than Morality. Hardly appropriate for the class room, even for atheist tykes.

 

[magnifier661]

World view?

Open an International Law book.

That is interesting... So you abide by this law book?

 

[Denny Crane]

Any one. The code is really big. Lots to it.

All "morality" means is

 

[Denny Crane]

That is interesting... So you abide by this law book?

We're all guilty of something when it comes to obeying every law on the books.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

there are some who think jesus was just satan in disguise. the first couple commandments make a little more sense this way.

 

[MarAzul]

Secular morality isn't a specific code, it's generally a collective decision by society at any given time about what's acceptable and what isn't (in the modern era; in the more distant past, this would have been the same as the code of conduct given by the religion that held sway). In our culture, we have a system of laws that (imperfectly) reflect the morality of the society in general.

If you want an example of a secular moral code (not "the example," since there is no single code of secular morality), you could look at Immanuel Kant's formulation of universality (or, as he put it, the categorical imperative). In simple terms, this means that morality is actions that could be "universalized" (everyone could partake in it) while still maintaining a coherent society. So, then, murder is out because it's pretty much impossible to have a coherent society if anyone can murder anyone. Similarly for theft. This is an example of not needing a god in order to justify standards for behavior.

Religion has certainly held an important role in morality. Religion, for example, was about the only check on the behavior of nobility/aristocracy. Since they made the laws, they couldn't really be constrained by secular laws. However, for those that hewed to a religion (which was far from uncommon), the rule of "God" could modify their behavior.

Religion isn't necessary for morality, but it has been necessary at times as a rein on the materially powerful.

I think you may be touching on the reason why our Rights come from our creator, as Mr. Jefferson stated. It keeps the powerful constraint to within their pay grade or it will if the citizens grasp the concept.

 

[Further]

I think many atheists will give different answers, but to me, there is no "code", there are just values and ethics based on a mix of (1) how you are raised by your parents, community and influential people, (2) genetics and natural proclivity towards certain beliefs. Is murder wrong, I would say yes, everyone I know would say yes, but there is no strict code that says yes. There are parents and law and teachers and friends and bosses and children and so forth that all come to the same conclusion that murder is wrong, and those beliefs have worked upon me in conjunction with my genetics, so that I believe murder is wrong.

 

[Denny Crane]

Certain rights come from the same place our fear of heights comes from.

 

[magnifier661]

We're all guilty of something when it comes to obeying every law on the books.

I completely agree with this, including even the bible.

But the question is still the same... What would you consider moral? I mean, even in this country, equality is a huge "gray area". Would equality be moral? Or is it okay for someone more fortunate to take advantage of others "less fortunate"? It's completely legal in the United States, so that's moral?

 

[magnifier661]

I think many atheists will give different answers, but to me, there is no "code", there are just values and ethics based on a mix of (1) how you are raised by your parents, community and influential people, (2) genetics and natural proclivity towards certain beliefs. Is murder wrong, I would say yes, everyone I know would say yes, but there is no strict code that says yes. There are parents and law and teachers and friends and bosses and children and so forth that all come to the same conclusion that murder is wrong, and those beliefs have worked upon me in conjunction with my genetics, so that I believe murder is wrong.

In a naturalist's view, wouldn't killing be natural? I mean we kill animals to eat all the time. Lions kill even their own if they are sick. So what is the make-up of morality?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

basically, do unto others

i dont want to be killed, so i try not to kill people

and so on

 

[Minstrel]

I think you may be touching on the reason why our Rights come from our creator, as Mr. Jefferson stated. It keeps the powerful constraint to within their pay grade or it will if the citizens grasp the concept.

These days, we have a secular system of checks and balances, we don't have a monarchy or nobility. So using it as a brake on the power of the politically powerful isn't necessary.

 

[Denny Crane]

I completely agree with this, including even the bible.

But the question is still the same... What would you consider moral? I mean, even in this country, equality is a huge "gray area". Would equality be moral? Or is it okay for someone more fortunate to take advantage of others "less fortunate"? It's completely legal in the United States, so that's moral?

I consider the laws of the land that I must abide by to be the moral code.

Generally, you try for win-win in any situation involving someone else. if there is nobody else involved, there's nothing possibly immoral that can be done.

 

[magnifier661]

basically, do unto others

i dont want to be killed, so i try not to kill people

and so on

But it's okay to eat animals... Okay, gotcha. This doesn't apply to lessor beings, because our arrogance allows us to have more right to destroy their life.

 

[Eastoff]

In a naturalist's view, wouldn't killing be natural? I mean we kill animals to eat all the time. Lions kill even their own if they are sick. So what is the make-up of morality?

Doctor assisted suicide.

 

[magnifier661]

I consider the laws of the land that I must abide by to be the moral code.

Generally, you try for win-win in any situation involving someone else. if there is nobody else involved, there's nothing possibly immoral that can be done.

Okay so the rich can tell us what is moral or not... Gotcha

 

[Denny Crane]

Evolution tells us that the animals at the top of the food chain eat those below. And we're at the top.

We can't stop being animals.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Open a law book and see the code.

Law has little to do with morality these days.

 

[MarAzul]

I think many atheists will give different answers, but to me, there is no "code", there are just values and ethics based on a mix of (1) how you are raised by your parents, community and influential people, (2) genetics and natural proclivity towards certain beliefs. Is murder wrong, I would say yes, everyone I know would say yes, but there is no strict code that says yes. There are parents and law and teachers and friends and bosses and children and so forth that all come to the same conclusion that murder is wrong, and those beliefs have worked upon me in conjunction with my genetics, so that I believe murder is wrong.

We don't always come out the same, for instance Eastoff posted an article about this Mullah that raped a 10 year old girl in the mosque. Hell I could knock his arse off without remorse and never consider it murder.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

You'd think rape and child molestation would make the 10 Commandments.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

But it's okay to eat animals... Okay, gotcha. This doesn't apply to lessor beings, because our arrogance allows us to have more right to destroy their life.

dont forget plants, they are alive too

 

[VanillaGorilla]

If you're really interested in a scientific view on morality, try taking a look at The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris, neuroscientist and philosopher.