Secular Morality

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One departure point is that the irreligious (who think about these things) would likely argue that there's no such thing as "objective morality"...objective good and evil. The religious would likely argue that there is objective good and evil and it's defined by a god.
 
Minstrel said:
These days, we have a secular system of checks and balances, we don't have a monarchy or nobility. So using it as a brake on the power of the politically powerful isn't necessary.
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I can see we are going to disagree. The struggles today are all about rights and what is a right, what is not. There really should be no question here.
 
VanillaGorilla said:
If you're really interested in a scientific view on morality, try taking a look at The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris, neuroscientist and philosopher.
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I've looked into this after his debate with William Lane Craig. It is well thought out and there are a lot of good ideas. But it still has many holes.. It's the closest answer for the naturalist's view.
 
in genesis, god never mentions eating meat does he? just that we rule over them. maybe killing animals is a sin? did jesus eat meat?
 
Minstrel said:
One departure point is that the irreligious (who think about these things) would likely argue that there's no such thing as "objective morality"...objective good and evil. The religious would likely argue that there is objective good and evil and it's defined by a god.
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In this country, slapping your wife in the face and leaving a mark is illegal (defined immoral), yet you can do it in China without prosecution. So are the people in China wrong?

How about when certain "country-view" leaders will do ethic cleansing. Since it is the "Country Law", is that still considered "moral"?
 
magnifier661 said:
In a naturalist's view, wouldn't killing be natural? I mean we kill animals to eat all the time. Lions kill even their own if they are sick. So what is the make-up of morality?
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Certainly could be. But I wasn't raised that way and not one single atheist I know was raised with that view. So either nurture is more powerful than making that type of reasoning, or there is something in our genetics that makes us believe murder is wrong. Or both. I could see evolutionary reasons for us to have the emotions and thought patterns that make the bulk of us believe murder is wrong. But there have been many cases where people receive an injury to the limbic system in the brain and become violent people as a result. So that's why I say there is a genetic component to our shared morality that murder is wrong, even though one could rationalize a more nihilistic approach.
 
3RA1N1AC said:
in genesis, god never mentions eating meat does he? just that we rule over them. maybe killing animals is a sin? did jesus eat meat?
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On the 7th day god went to In-N-Out.
 
Of course, the rip off people were getting from the priest who butchered the lambs were what set him into a rage.
 
3RA1N1AC said:
in genesis, god never mentions eating meat does he? just that we rule over them. maybe killing animals is a sin? did jesus eat meat?
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does it?

Genesis 9:3 ESV / 177 helpful votes

Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.
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Further said:
Certainly could be. But I wasn't raised that way and not one single atheist I know was raised with that view. So either nurture is more powerful than making that type of reasoning, or there is something in our genetics that makes us believe murder is wrong. Or both. I could see evolutionary reasons for us to have the emotions and thought patterns that make the bulk of us believe murder is wrong. But there have been many cases where people receive an injury to the limbic system in the brain and become violent people as a result. So that's why I say there is a genetic component to our shared morality that murder is wrong, even though one could rationalize a more nihilistic approach.
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yeah, except war. killing motherfuckers has always been celebrated.
 
Further said:
Certainly could be. But I wasn't raised that way and not one single atheist I know was raised with that view. So either nurture is more powerful than making that type of reasoning, or there is something in our genetics that makes us believe murder is wrong. Or both. I could see evolutionary reasons for us to have the emotions and thought patterns that make the bulk of us believe murder is wrong. But there have been many cases where people receive an injury to the limbic system in the brain and become violent people as a result. So that's why I say there is a genetic component to our shared morality that murder is wrong, even though one could rationalize a more nihilistic approach.
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How many people do you know? Your "personal examples" are an extremely small sample size. We have billions of people on this planet.
 
magnifier661 said:
does it?
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And then god changes his mind.

Deuteronomy 14:7

However, of those that chew the cud or that have a divided hoof you may not eat the camel, the rabbit or the hyrax. Although they chew the cud, they do not have a divided hoof; they are ceremonially unclean for you.
 
Further said:
Certainly could be. But I wasn't raised that way and not one single atheist I know was raised with that view. So either nurture is more powerful than making that type of reasoning, or there is something in our genetics that makes us believe murder is wrong. Or both. I could see evolutionary reasons for us to have the emotions and thought patterns that make the bulk of us believe murder is wrong. But there have been many cases where people receive an injury to the limbic system in the brain and become violent people as a result. So that's why I say there is a genetic component to our shared morality that murder is wrong, even though one could rationalize a more nihilistic approach.
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There's no genetic component to murder is wrong. The first tool used by man was likely used to kill another. Many societies sacrificed humans or fed Christians to lions, etc.

It's only our ability to reason that we don't kill.
 
Oh, and by the way, a discussion on the origin of morality is very interesting, but I don't think it needs to be either secular or religious. I think if you checked any maximum security prison we would find a lot of religious people. Both groups have shitheads.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
And then god changes his mind.

Deuteronomy 14:7

However, of those that chew the cud or that have a divided hoof you may not eat the camel, the rabbit or the hyrax. Although they chew the cud, they do not have a divided hoof; they are ceremonially unclean for you.
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Possible, but still doesn't change the fact that Brainiac was wrong about Genesis saying you cannot eat meat.
 
magnifier661 said:
No, I was just explaining you were dead wrong about Genesis saying you cannot eat meat.
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i was asking man, hence the question mark, all i could remember off hand was the beginning

thanks for the history lesson though! :cheers:
 
Denny Crane said:
There's no genetic component to murder is wrong. The first tool used by man was likely used to kill another. Many societies sacrificed humans or fed Christians to lions, etc.

It's only our ability to reason that we don't kill.
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Best answer so far! And this is the separation between a man and a lion. We can reason, therefor make judgements based on "what is moral"
 
Further said:
Oh, and by the way, a discussion on the origin of morality is very interesting, but I don't think it needs to be either secular or religious. I think if you checked any maximum security prison we would find a lot of religious people. Both groups have shitheads.
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The use of the term Secular Morality set me off. It seems to be a well discussed subject but never defined.
 
Denny Crane said:
There's no genetic component to murder is wrong. The first tool used by man was likely used to kill another. Many societies sacrificed humans or fed Christians to lions, etc.

It's only our ability to reason that we don't kill.
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Just because murder is around doesn't mean there is no genetic component against it. It can be a predisposition to thinking in a certain way. But that predisposition needs to be overridden for the purpose of self preservation.
 
I think its pretty hilarious how we debate morality, then it becomes a christian vs. atheist or agnostic view.

The question isn't "Christians are moral and atheists aren't". The debate should be "What would a naturalist use for their moral map?"

But yet again, the uptight atheists or agnostics get all defensive and start throwing out why the Bible is immoral. LOL
 
magnifier661 said:
Best answer so far! And this is the separation between a man and a lion. We can reason, therefor make judgements based on "what is moral"
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havent they proven other animals "reason" though? like the electrified food dish, or pushing the red button for a treat or whatever. but thats all self preservation.

i think that when i do bad things, i feel bad. other animals dont have a conscience maybe?
 
3RA1N1AC said:
havent they proven other animals "reason" though? like the electrified food dish, or pushing the red button for a treat or whatever. but thats all self preservation.

i think that when i do bad things, i feel bad. other animals dont have a conscience maybe?
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I actually think this is actually the better answer.

th


or this

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