Secular Morality

[MadeFromDust]

Society norms. We live in societies with norms and laws, and those are designed to help steer people towards what societies deem right. There have been many societies where what was considered the most praiseworthy thing one could do was sacrifice oneself. In most of those (all I can think of off hand) it was a religious act. But it is not some universal truth that says that sacrifice is wrong, it is the culture, the times, the society that dictates what is or is not acceptable. Or killing others under gods name. Spanish Inquisition anyone?

Is killing wrong? In our society it is under most circumstances. But at other times, with different societal norms and laws, perhaps killing wasn't wrong. To me, under my parents tutelage, killing is totally wrong. But times change and morals adjust. Look in the Old Testament as to what was accepted, even encouraged from murder to slavery, but times changed, and so did morality.

There have been many societies that were complete and utterly barbaric, and many exist today all around the world. If the society you happened to be raised in decides to have a bit of a shift in their thoughts on morality are you going to make the changes necessary, or stand up for what is "right"?

 

[Further]

By even bringing this up you are only strengthening my point.

See, this is the difference in how you and I are viewing this thread. You have a point, a side to defend. Me, I'm was just trying to answer the original question without trying to defend or prop up atheism , just explain how I view right vs wrong. Then, I answered some follow ups. But I understand that it can appear odd that someone without a belief in god can be a very ethical person, so I was just trying to inform where I feel my morality comes from. No agenda in my answers.

 

[MadeFromDust]

See, this is the difference in how you and I are viewing this thread. You have a point, a side to defend. Me, I'm was just trying to answer the original question without trying to defend or prop up atheism , just explain how I view right vs wrong. Then, I answered some follow ups. But I understand that it can appear odd that someone without a belief in god can be a very ethical person, so I was just trying to inform where I feel my morality comes from. No agenda in my answers.

I understand and respect that and I think it is vital for people to try and ground their morality somewhere. I thank God that most atheists I know follow Judeo-Christian Western values and morality, or else it could be chaos But seriously my objection is that many atheists cry morality and say religious morality is inferior and point out atrocities committed by religious people, yet have no real grounds to base their own morality on. Yes many atrocities have been done under the mask of 'religion', but you should take some time out to see if they are actually following what their faith teaches, and also not lump all religions and religious people together at the same time. Over 85% of the world adheres to a religious faith, so of course there are going to be some bad apples in the bunch, and some religions actually do call for violence (or at least their followers wholeheartedly believe it does). I believe though that we all have an innate sense of right and wrong because God has put it there, and this is taught in the Bible too. Yes you can easily quote mine the Bible and make it say what you want it to say, but there is a consistent message throughout.

 

[crowTrobot]

I just fail to see where your foundations are when you bring it up.

As far as I know the golden rule doesn't have an objective foundation in the sense you mean. It does have utility from most modern perspectives, so more advanced societies tend to agree on it.

I'm actually not because I know where my morality comes from.

when you read Leviticus, do you honestly think to yourself that stoning adulterers to death is immoral now but wasn't then because "Jesus fulfilled the OT law" (or whatever reason you think that flip-flopped in God's eyes)....

...or do you think to yourself it's immoral and always was because your common sense informs your feelings that it's an unjust punishment?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I understand and respect that and I think it is vital for people to try and ground their morality somewhere. I thank God that most atheists I know follow Judeo-Christian Western values and morality, or else it could be chaos But seriously my objection is that many atheists cry morality and say religious morality is inferior and point out atrocities committed by religious people, yet have no real grounds to base their own morality on. Yes many atrocities have been done under the mask of 'religion', but you should take some time out to see if they are actually following what their faith teaches, and also not lump all religions and religious people together at the same time. Over 85% of the world adheres to a religious faith, so of course there are going to be some bad apples in the bunch, and some religions actually do call for violence (or at least their followers wholeheartedly believe it does). I believe though that we all have an innate sense of right and wrong because God has put it there, and this is taught in the Bible too. Yes you can easily quote mine the Bible and make it say what you want it to say, but there is a consistent message throughout.

Judeo-Christian religions have adapted themselves to fit in with modern Western society.

That's the problem with Islam, it can not adapt to modern, not even Western, society.

There was a time when it was absolutely against Judeo-Christian religions to have women in positions of power or even work outside of the home. As society changed so did religion.

 

[Further]

I understand and respect that and I think it is vital for people to try and ground their morality somewhere. I thank God that most atheists I know follow Judeo-Christian Western values and morality, or else it could be chaos But seriously my objection is that many atheists cry morality and say religious morality is inferior and point out atrocities committed by religious people, yet have no real grounds to base their own morality on. Yes many atrocities have been done under the mask of 'religion', but you should take some time out to see if they are actually following what their faith teaches, and also not lump all religions and religious people together at the same time. Over 85% of the world adheres to a religious faith, so of course there are going to be some bad apples in the bunch, and some religions actually do call for violence (or at least their followers wholeheartedly believe it does). I believe though that we all have an innate sense of right and wrong because God has put it there, and this is taught in the Bible too. Yes you can easily quote mine the Bible and make it say what you want it to say, but there is a consistent message throughout.

There most certainly are murderers and evil-doers from every stripe, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, and yes, certainly atheist.

I personally believe that if you lost your faith tomorrow and joined the unholy atheistic hoards, you would still have the same basic values. What causes you to shudder in revolt today would likewise cause you to shudder tomorrow as well. And if I found God tomorrow, cleaned up my soiled soul and got baptized, I would still have the same basic values. There might be small differences, I might decide not going to church was wrong and you might decide beef tastes good on a Friday too. However both of us would refrain from theft, adultery and murder. Both of us would want to help the infirm and encourage the fallen.

We both believe our values and morality come from in, we just differ on the influence.

 

[Denny Crane]

Do unto others is good advice.

The golden rule: "he who has the gold makes the rules."

 

[magnifier661]

Do unto others is good advice.

The golden rule: "he who has the gold makes the rules."

Prime example: Monsanto able to have congress pass a bill to not hold them liable if their gmo products hurt you

 

[Denny Crane]

Prime example: Monsanto able to have congress pass a bill to not hold them liable if their gmo products hurt you

It doesn't matter whether it's congress or the private sector. The golden rule is the golden rule.

He who has the gold gets to select the board of directors.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

He who gets enough gold to make a calf gets to worship it.

 

[Further]

He who gets enough gold to make a calf gets to worship it.

The cow In my avatar attacked me on sauvie island, number #964. I want to spend my gold on buying that calf (huge cow) and eat a victory steak.



Doubt I'll do it, but I want to.

 

[Denny Crane]

He who gets enough gold to make a calf gets to worship it.

mags.