Separation Of Church & State In A Literal Sense?

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ABM

ABM

Happily Married In Music City, USA!
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Hmmmm.........you'd never know it here..........

The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained.

~George Washington, First Inaugural Address, April 30, 1789
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crowTrobot said:
is that the movie all those powerball billboards are advertising right now?
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Actually, I was referring to this one. Directed by Billy Crystal.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0250934/

One of the reasons for Billy Crystal's enduring appeal is his eternal boyishness. And nothing brings out the boy in a man like baseball. Put Crystal, a lifelong Yankees fan, at he helm of a movie not only about baseball, but also about one of his childhood heroes (and adulthood friends), Mickey Mantle, and you've got a winner. 61*, which chronicles the race between Mantle (Tom Jane) and Roger Maris (Barry Pepper) to break Babe Ruth's home-run record, is one of the best baseball movies out there.
Most people, even those who don't live and die by the diamond, know that Mantle was a party guy, a Colin Farrell, as it were. He liked his booze, his women, the luxuries his stardom afforded him, and he had the movie-star looks to accompany his lifestyle. Like Farrell, Mantle had enough talent to offset his notorious reputation.

Maris was Mantle's opposite: a Midwestern boy, shy, quiet and not at all prepared for the attention the New York press would heap upon him. He just wanted to play the game, but when you're as good as Maris was—especially if you're a Yankee—the press doesn't allow for that. And the fans only wanted Mickey. The film is as much about his struggle to survive in a town that loathed his introverted persona as it is about the home run race.

The "battle" to break the record was concocted entirely by the press; the teammates were both roommates and the best of friends, despite—or perhaps because of—their differing personalities. Yin and yang, though that kind of awareness didn't exist in 1961; one of the many interesting aspects of the film is to watch these two men, who developed an intimacy likely beyond that they shared with their wives, struggle to show each other affection and support.

In addition to being almost exact doppelgangers of the men they portray, Jane and Pepper both capture not only the essences of the men, but also the little details. Pepper, in particular, is downright spooky in how well he captures emotions internally and conveys them with little movements of his haunted eyes. Jane has the freedom to paint with broader emotional strokes, but his Mantle never becomes a caricature, and he never lets the audience forget that underneath Mantle's wild behavior was extreme physical and emotional pain. Each found in the other what he couldn't find in himself: Maris turned to Mantle for advice on dealing with the press, while Mantle learned a modicum of restraint living with Maris and lesser-known teammate Bob Cerv (Chris Bauer, Third Watch).

Arguably, Crystal loves the game of baseball more than anyone else in Hollywood—and that includes Kevin Costner. Growing up in New York, Crystal and his brother often accompanied their father to Yankees games; as a child, he even once got Mantle's autograph. In the 1970s, when Crystal first gained public attention on Soap, Dinah Shore—the Oprah of her time—booked Crystal and Mantle as guests. The 61* DVD features the entire segment; it's evident that Crystal was as star-struck then as he was as a little boy. Following that, the actor/comedian went on to become close friends with Mantle and his family. That intimacy gave him extra incentive, and ability, to create an accurate portrayal of Mantle and of the home run race. Much less was known about Maris behind closed doors, but Crystal relied heavily on the Maris family to learn what the player was like as a person, a husband, a father, a friend.

HBO movies don't often get the exposure they deserve, which is a shame, because many of them are far superior to their major-studio counterparts; 61* is a prime example. On DVD, the film is available to a wider audience, but it still isn't as known as, say, Field of Dreams.

As outstanding as the movie is, the DVD is even better. Finally, finally, we have a director's commentary that's not only great, it's outstanding. Anyone who aspires to directing, or to understanding a director's job, particularly with a limited budget and shooting schedule, must listen to this commentary. Because Crystal is also a talented performer, he keeps his monologue lively and entertaining. This is the least-expensive course in film direction you'll ever find. And how many commentaries continue throughout the credits, commenting on specific members of the crew?!

Aside from the principals—Jane had never so much as picked up a bat—the ballplayers, both on the Yankees and on the other teams, were either minor-league veterans, top university athletes, or otherwise well-acquainted with the game. The process of finding these guys is just one of many behind-the-scenes aspects touched upon in The Greatest Summer of My Life: The Making of 61*, a 50-minute all-access look at everything from Crystal's relationship with Mantle to the re-creation of Yankee Stadium as it was in 1961.

Add to that Maris and Mantle bios, fielding and hitting stats (Pepper, Jane, and Crystal's bios also appear, though not their playing stats), historical information on the home run race, a list of the 1961 home runs, and the original trailer; this is a very well-rounded DVD. Not to mention simply the kind of film you'll want to watch again and again.

— SARAH CHAUNCEY
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Maris was one of my favorite players. He went thru pure hell when chasing Ruth's record.
 
I always understood the separation of church and state as meaning there shall be no state sanctioned religion, not that the government shall divorce itself from all religion or faith, no matter how small the matter. That's why I'm not bothered by nativity scenes or menorahs in public places without equal representation for crescents or buddahs.

Then again, I'm neither a lawyer nor particularly religious.
 
maxiep said:
I always understood the separation of church and state as meaning there shall be no state sanctioned religion.
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True. Wasn't that because they wanted to ensure they were free - once and for all - from the oppresive/powerful type ways of Anglican church in England?
 
I'll just make this thread my quote bin.

I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground that 'all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states or to the people.' To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress, is to take possession of a boundless field of power, not longer susceptible of any definition."

~Thomas Jefferson (Opinion on the Constitutionality of a National Bank, 15 February 1791)
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When Washington was elected the 1st president, they debated what to call him. Some suggested "His Highness," others "His Excellency." They finally settled on "Mr. President" as a means to show the president is just a citizen like the rest of us.

They were breaking new ground... There never was a president of the USA before.

When it came time for Washington to be sworn in, they were breaking new ground too. Nobody'd ever been sworn in before.

Washington grabbed his bible, without giving it 2nd thought, and swore his oath upon it, administered by the chief justice. It was the obvious thing to do. It's been done that way ever since - swear the oath on the bible. Or recently the Koran (who cares, it's the elected person's choice!)

Separation of church and state? Right from the get go. NOT.

Anyhow, Jefferson wrote the constitution of Virginia, and it included a very harsh (compared) separation of church and state clause. Not a single dime of public money or laws to be used to support religion.
 
maxiep said:
I always understood the separation of church and state as meaning there shall be no state sanctioned religion, not that the government shall divorce itself from all religion or faith, no matter how small the matter. That's why I'm not bothered by nativity scenes or menorahs in public places without equal representation for crescents or buddahs.

Then again, I'm neither a lawyer nor particularly religious.
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At the same time, the reason many of you folks don't see any problem with it, is because the religions that are being allowed to do such things are the religion you follow. Maybe if you stepped into somebody else's shoes and looked at the world for a bit, you would figure that out. It is very important for the government to not endorse, nor support one religion over another, and maintain that boundry. Secondly, public sites hosting religious festivities should not be paid for by my tax dollar. It is equivelent of giving my money to a cult.
 
hasoos said:
At the same time, the reason many of you folks don't see any problem with it, is because the religions that are being allowed to do such things are the religion you follow. Maybe if you stepped into somebody else's shoes and looked at the world for a bit, you would figure that out. It is very important for the government to not endorse, nor support one religion over another, and maintain that boundry. Secondly, public sites hosting religious festivities should not be paid for by my tax dollar. It is equivelent of giving my money to a cult.
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If you imagine me to be in any way religious, you're way off base. For the record, there are plenty of things my tax dollars pay for I think are a crock, just as I'm certain there are for every taxpaying citizen.
 
All religion is massively subsidized by your tax dollars.

We all pay extra for religion's immunity from property tax, income tax...
 
Or the govt. could tax religion into oblivion, which is fine by some I suppose.

The real issue is that there's an income tax at all. It wasn't supposed to be this way.
 
School vouchers are an indicator of where I stand on this. For instance, I scoff at the idea that school vouchers should not be used to send kids to Catholic schools.

I would have no problem with my money being used to fund a voucher so some kid could go to a Jewish school or any other religious school. I never saw that as a state sanctioned religious practice. I'd rather the kid go to a school like that than slip into the bureaucracy of their school system.

I think actually, that every college student in America, at least in liberal arts schools, be required to take a religion course. I'm not talking about Intro to New Testament or any other course like that. I'm not looking to convert anyone. I'm thinking like a basic survey course into religion. How these religions were founded, basic practices, what they believe, etc. This way when someone watches somebody like Mitt Romney give a speech mentioned "radical Islamic jihadism," they'll actually know what he's talking about.

Colleges pumping out the future politicians, journalists, and lawyers of this world that have no basic knowledge of different religions other than their own do not help any of us.
 
The govt. gives vouchers to go to Notre Dame. Go figure.
 
Real said:
This way when someone watches somebody like Mitt Romney give a speech mentioned "radical Islamic jihadism," they'll actually know what he's talking about.
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Which is more than Mitt Romney can say.
 
MARIS61 said:
Which is more than Mitt Romney can say.
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I didn't support Mitt Romney, I laugh at all those who supported him because he was the only true conservative in the race, and I don't appreciate his blatant, unapologetic shift in views to run for the Presidency, but I dare you to find a more accomplished, qualified, or more intelligent candidate in that race. Perfect score on the SATs, Valedictorian in college, joint MBA/law degree from Harvard, Bain Capital, Governor of Massachusetts, CEO of the Olympics...
 
Real said:
I didn't support Mitt Romney, I laugh at all those who supported him because he was the only true conservative in the race, and I don't appreciate his blatant, unapologetic shift in views to run for the Presidency, but I dare you to find a more accomplished, qualified, or more intelligent candidate in that race. Perfect score on the SATs, Valedictorian in college, joint MBA/law degree from Harvard, Bain Capital, Governor of Massachusetts, CEO of the Olympics...
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He claims to believe in and worship mythical beings. The thing that scares me is I believe he's serious about it.
:crazy:
People that far out of touch with reality should not be allowed to operate motor vehicles, never mind run a country.
 
MARIS61 said:
He claims to believe in and worship mythical beings. The thing that scares me is I believe he's serious about it.
:crazy:
People that far out of touch with reality should not be allowed to operate motor vehicles, never mind run a country.
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so obama is a closet atheist? that would be good news.
 
MARIS61 said:
He claims to believe in and worship mythical beings. The thing that scares me is I believe he's serious about it.
:crazy:
People that far out of touch with reality should not be allowed to operate motor vehicles, never mind run a country.
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Like E.T. and life on other planets?

Sounds like a scientist to me.
 
if a jewish person somehow gets elected to office, will he have to hold an oath to a torah?

what happens if an atheist gets elected to office?
 
futurama_fanatic said:
if a jewish person somehow gets elected to office, will he have to hold an oath to a torah?

what happens if an atheist gets elected to office?
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Jewish people have a bible - the old testament.

As far as I know, it's up to the elected person to choose how to take his oath, bible or nothing.
 
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