Sharpe vs Other Rookies

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wizenheimer said:
I'll soil myself and be the Eeyore interpreter for this post

he trying to say that Sharpe is the most talented player Portland has drafted in a long time only because he's the highest draft pick Portland has had since they drafted Dame. It's a way to dismiss Sharpe, but ironically, to get to that dismissal he has to back-door acknowledge what a positive impact Dame has had for Portland
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Exactly! Of course he’s the most talented bc we never picked anywhere near that high since Dame got here! Granted we did have that Zach Collins draft but that was the 10th pick we traded up to.
 
KeepOnRollin said:
The dude (or dudette) is trolling everyone. He doesn't believe half of what he types.
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There is another poster here who is very similar and his handler told me that he is always “joking” and not serious. Hard to tell around here.
 
AldoTrapani said:
Exactly! Of course he’s the most talented bc we never picked anywhere near that high since Dame got here! Granted we did have that Zach Collins draft but that was the 10th pick we traded up to.
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We drafted CJ in the lottery the year after we drafted Dame.
 
BlazerBender said:
Because Olshey couldn't think of anything past trying to replicate the Warriors.
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I don't even know if it was that.... I think Neil was a good evaluator of talent, but a bad chemistry person, so he would become fixated on a player regardless of fit. Taking CJ right after drafting Dame, or trading up to get Collins when we clearly needed more veteran players and not a raw rookie big man.
 
BlazerBender said:
Because Olshey couldn't think of anything past trying to replicate the Warriors.
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he drafted CJ 2 years before the Warriors won their 1st championship. It was simply a case of Olshey falling madly in love with a player during the draft process and no amount of obvious reality was ever going to budge him away from his ego-driven belief that CJ was an elite player and that a 6'3 wing would work in the NBA. Blind, stubborn, and stupid is a bad combo for a GM
 
wizenheimer said:
he drafted CJ 2 years before the Warriors won their 1st championship. It was simply a case of Olshey falling madly in love with a player during the draft process and no amount of obvious reality was ever going to budge him away from his ego-driven belief that CJ was an elite player and that a 6'3 wing would work in the NBA. Blind, stubborn, and stupid is a bad combo for a GM
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Yup. Neil's ego and hubris would not allow him to recognize that he was wrong about something. He'd double down or blame someone else.
 
wizenheimer said:
he drafted CJ 2 years before the Warriors won their 1st championship. It was simply a case of Olshey falling madly in love with a player during the draft process and no amount of obvious reality was ever going to budge him away from his ego-driven belief that CJ was an elite player and that a 6'3 wing would work in the NBA. Blind, stubborn, and stupid is a bad combo for a GM
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Olshey was absolutely correct if he thought CJ was an elite player. Remember, ESPN ranked him as high as 13th in the league at one point. Even if they over-valued him somewhat, that's certainly in the elite mix. The fit alongside Dame was always an issue, but CJ is currently getting all-star talk as the lead guard in New Orleans. He certainly works in the NBA.

Calling Olshey blind and stubborn on that topic is rather ironic.
 
handiman said:
Olshey was absolutely correct if he thought CJ was an elite player. Remember, ESPN ranked him as high as 13th in the league at one point. Even if they over-valued him somewhat, that's certainly in the elite mix. The fit alongside Dame was always an issue, but CJ is currently getting all-star talk as the lead guard in New Orleans. He certainly works in the NBA.

Calling Olshey blind and stubborn on that topic is rather ironic.
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LOL...you have a really broad definition of elite then. Dame is elite. CJ is not
 
handiman said:
Olshey was absolutely correct if he thought CJ was an elite player. Remember, ESPN ranked him as high as 13th in the league at one point. Even if they over-valued him somewhat, that's certainly in the elite mix. The fit alongside Dame was always an issue, but CJ is currently getting all-star talk as the lead guard in New Orleans. He certainly works in the NBA.

Calling Olshey blind and stubborn on that topic is rather ironic.
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CJ was a great pick, the problem isn't his talent, the problem was always the fit next to Dame and NO's stubbornness to trade away the one great pick he actually made.
 
bigbailes said:
CJ was a great pick, the problem isn't his talent, the problem was always the fit next to Dame and NO's stubbornness to trade away the one great pick he actually made.
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Trent?
Simons?
Little?
Connaugton?
Dame?

All these guys have vastly outperformed their draft position?
 
illmatic99 said:
Trent?
Simons?
Little?
Connaugton?
Dame?

All these guys have vastly outperformed their draft position?
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Dame wasn't his ... Little has been made of glass and I'd say didn't outperform his spot just yet ... Simons is a good pick but don't think any of those guys hit the level that CJ has. I give him credit for finding diamonds in 2nd round more than he should have, but IMO CJ was the one pick he really hit on and refused to let him go.
 
handiman said:
Like Olshey, you can't admit when you're wrong.
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lol...admit I'm wrong about what?

How many "elite" players would you say there are in the NBA? My gauge is somewhere in the top-15; no more than that. And CJ sure isn't top-15
 
wizenheimer said:
lol...admit I'm wrong about what?

How many "elite" players would you say there are in the NBA? My gauge is somewhere in the top-15; no more than that. And CJ sure isn't top-15
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Well, as I said, ESPN had him rated as high as 13th best at his peak, so he's in the discussion even by your standard.
 
handiman said:
Well, as I said, ESPN had him rated as high as 13th best at his peak, so he's in the discussion even by your standard.
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Do you actually think CJ was ever the 13th best player in the NBA? Those lists are stupid. They have always been stupid. They regularly put players above Dame who are not better than him.
 
handiman said:
Well, as I said, ESPN had him rated as high as 13th best at his peak, so he's in the discussion even by your standard.
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no he's not because ESPN is not any standard I'd use. What year was that anyhow and is there a link to it so we can see who ESPN put below him?...need laughs anyway

I mean, does anybody really think CJ is anywhere near the top-15 players in the league? Disregarding current health he's only the 3rd best on his team and that's being generous because Valunciunas has an argument as 3rd best, just like CJ
 
wizenheimer said:
no he's not because ESPN is not any standard I'd use. What year was that anyhow and is there a link to it so we can see who ESPN put below him?...need laughs anyway

I mean, does anybody really think CJ is anywhere near the top-15 players in the league? Disregarding current health he's only the 3rd best on his team and that's being generous because Valunciunas has an argument as 3rd best, just like CJ
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Even when he was younger he was never top 15.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Do you actually think CJ was ever the 13th best player in the NBA? Those lists are stupid. They have always been stupid. They regularly put players above Dame who are not better than him.
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yeah, they usually are. I mean, just go down the list of the western conference standings of who is better and (who is comparable or has more value):

Denver - Jokic (Murray)
Memphis - Ja Morant; Bane (Jaren Jackson)
Sacramento- - Fox; Sabonis
New Orleans- Zion; Ingram (Valunciunas)
LAC - Kawhi; Paul George
Dallas - Doncic (Dinwiddie)
Phoenix - Devin Booker; Mikal Bridges (CP3)
Golden State - Curry (Draymond; Klay)
Minny - Edwards; KAT (Gobert)
Utah - Markannen
OKC - SGA
Portland - Dame/ Grant (yeah, I think Grant is just as good with more versatile value)
LAL - Lebron; AD

so then, just in the west I see 20-21 players who are better and 8 or 9 who are debatable. Even if you're a CJ fan and knock 3 or 4 of those players below CJ (who exactly?) that would still leave more than 15 and that's only half the league. there is still the eastern conference: Tatum, Jalen Brown, Embiid, Harden, Giannis, Jrue, Middleton, Durant, Kyrie, Donovan Mitchell, Garland, Jimmy Butler, Adebayo, Julius Randall? Trae Young, Haliburton, Myles Turner? Beal, DeRozan, LaVine, Siakam, Lamelo

there's 20-22 more. And if you have any questions about some of these players, ask yourself who you'd rather Portland have, Cj or Jaren Jackson? CJ or Dinwiddie? CJ or Myles Turner?

I'm not even sure CJ is in the top-40, let alone the top-30
 
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wizenheimer said:
yeah, they usually are. I mean, just go down the list of the western conference standings of who is better and (who is comparable or has more value):

Denver - Jokic (Murray)
Memphis - Ja Morant; Bane (Jaren Jackson)
Sacramento- - Fox; Sabonis
New Orleans- Zion; Ingram (Valunciunas)
LAC - Kawhi; Paul George
Dallas - Doncic (Dinwiddie)
Phoenix - Devin Booker; Mikal Bridges (CP3)
Golden State - Curry (Draymond; Klay)
Minny - Edwards; KAT (Gobert)
Utah - Markannen
OKC - SGA
Portland - Dame/ Grant (yeah, I think Grant is just as good with more versatile value)
LAL - Lebron; AD

so then, just in the west I see 20-21 players who are better and 8 or 9 who are debatable. Even if you're a CJ fan and knock 3 or 4 of those players below CJ (who exactly) that would still leave more than 15 and that's only half the league. there is still the eastern conference: Tatum, Jalen Brown, Embiid, Harden, Giannis, Jrue, Middleton, Durant, Kyrie, Donovan Mitchell, Garland, Jimmy Butler, Adebayo, Julius Randall? Trae Young, Haliburton, Myles Turner? Beal, DeRozan, LaVine, Siakam, Lamelo

there's 20-22 more. And if you have any questions about some of these players, ask yourself who you'd rather Portland have, Cj or Jaren Jackson? CJ or Dimwiddie? CJ or Myles Turner?

I'm not even sure CJ is in the top-40, let alone the top-30
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But even if you go back to whatever mythical year where he was chosen as 13th best, I bet we could find 20-25 guys who were better.
 
I'm not impressed with Sharpe's inability to catch 15' high lob passes from Jerami Grant.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Do you actually think CJ was ever the 13th best player in the NBA? Those lists are stupid. They have always been stupid. They regularly put players above Dame who are not better than him.
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"Even if they over-valued him somewhat, that's certainly in the elite mix." Read harder.

wizenheimer said:
no he's not because ESPN is not any standard I'd use. What year was that anyhow and is there a link to it so we can see who ESPN put below him?...need laughs anyway
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It's not difficult to find...

https://www.google.com/search?q=espn+player+rankings+cj+mccollum+13

Top result:

https://www.blazersedge.com/2019/9/25/20884039/espn-best-100-players-list-cj-mccollum-no-13-blazers
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27691396/ranking-best-players-nba-season-30-11

As far as standards to go by, your choice of "elite" being top-15 is also questionable. That limits it to basically half the all-stars, which I imagine many teams would object to.
 
Blazer practice goals:

1. Make simple passes
2. Work on lob passes
3. Work on execution of fast breaks before S2 forumites start jumping off bridges.
 
handiman said:
"Even if they over-valued him somewhat, that's certainly in the elite mix." Read harder.

It's not difficult to find...

https://www.google.com/search?q=espn player rankings cj mccollum 13
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and that list only proves one thing about ESPN lists: that Nate was right when he said "Those lists are stupid. They have always been stupid"

at no point in time during CJ's career has he been the 13th best player in the NBA. Not close


handiman said:
As far as standards to go by, your choice of "elite" being top-15 is also questionable. That limits it to basically half the all-stars, which I imagine many teams would object to.
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Yes "elite" is a subjective. I choose not to dilute it's meaning which is why I tend to draw the line at 15

as far as the all-star game being a gauge of elite....cmon man. In the last 15 years, these players have been all-stars:

Caron Butler
Josh Howard
Mehmet Okur
Carlos Boozer
David West
Antawn Jamison
Devin Harris
Mo Williams
Danny Granger
Zach Randolph
Chris Kaman
Joe Johnson
Andre Iguodala
Roy Hibbert
Luol Deng
LaMarcus Aldridge
Tyson Chandler
Joakim Noah
Brook Lopez
DeMar DeRozan
Paul Millsap
Kyle Korver
Jeff Teague
John Wall
Isaiah Thomas
Andre Drummond
Al Horford
John Wall
Isaiah Thomas
Andre Drummond
Al Horford
Gordon Hayward
DeAndre Jordan
Kemba Walker
Kyle Lowry
Bradley Beal
Victor Oladipo
Goran Dragić
Ben Simmons
Khris Middleton
D'Angelo Russell
Nikola Vučević
Bam Adebayo
Brandon Ingram
Domantas Sabonis
Zach LaVine
Julius Randle
Mike Conley
Darius Garland
Jarrett Allen
Fred VanVleet
Andrew Wiggins
Dejounte Murray
LaMelo Ball

and of course, don't forget about Jamal Magloire!

Most of those players were observably and statistically better than CJ. Many of them definitely were much better at defense. And I don't see a single one of those guys that reached the level of elite

so yeah, I have a higher undiluted definition of elite

that espn list you're using as your evidence was based upon the 2018/19 season; they revise it every year. That season CJ ranked (among the 183 qualified players):

47th in 3ptFG%
78th in assists
27th in scoring...but 17th in FGA
71st in PER
121st in TS%
82nd in winshares/48
73rd in BPM

yeah, right...."13th best player"...."elite"
 
wizenheimer said:
as far as the all-star game being a gauge of elite....cmon man. In the last 15 years, these players have been all-stars:
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Typical wizen-stats, using 15 years' worth of fringe all-stars to represent an annual number (e.g., roughly half the yearly group). That's a little over 3 per year, and several of them were definitely elite when they earned their All-Star spots.

It's amusing how transparent your attempts to misrepresent statistics has become.
 
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