Sharpe vs Other Rookies

[Whyachi]

Anfernee goes ball hog mode when Shaedon is in the game. There's some weirdo jealousy stuff at hand.

 

[wizenheimer]

Typical wizen-stats, using 15 years' worth of fringe all-stars to represent an annual number (e.g., roughly half the yearly group). That's a little over 3 per year, and several of them were definitely elite when they earned their All-Star spots.

It's amusing how transparent your attempts to misrepresent statistics has become.

LOL...you know what...piss off with your insults. Maybe you're just tired & cranky from constantly moving the goal posts in this discussion

I didn't "misrepresent" anything. You're the one that brought the all-star game into the mix as some kind of gauge. I simply listed a bunch of non-elite players that have made the all-star game.

but please, for the guy that's arguing that CJ is elite and my standard is too restrictive, what is your standard? Is elite the top-50 players in the league? which direction would you go from 50? And right now what would you say CJ's rank is in the NBA? Since you spent a lot of time trashing me for my opinion, show what yours is

 

[Natebishop3]

Labels like "superstar" and "elite" or ranking players is so subjective, it's not worth arguing over.

 

[wizenheimer]

Labels like "superstar" and "elite" or ranking players is so subjective, it's not worth arguing over.

yeah, I know...should have left it alone

 

[RR7]

Anfernee goes ball hog mode when Shaedon is in the game. There's some weirdo jealousy stuff at hand.

Per/36, Anfernee's assists increase when he shares the floor with Sharpe.

It's amusing to me, not saying you do it or have done it, that people clamor for a bench scorer, a Jordan Clarkson sort of gunner to come in off of our bench for a scoring punch. Anfernee is used precisely in that role, and people hate him for it. Sometimes a starter could also be in conjunction with the reserves and viewed as a player with a different role. Anfernee is one role with the starters, and a different role when he is in with primarily bench players.

 

[Natebishop3]

Per/36, Anfernee's assists increase when he shares the floor with Sharpe.

It's amusing to me, not saying you do it or have done it, that people clamor for a bench scorer, a Jordan Clarkson sort of gunner to come in off of our bench for a scoring punch. Anfernee is used precisely in that role, and people hate him for it. Sometimes a starter could also be in conjunction with the reserves and viewed as a player with a different role. Anfernee is one role with the starters, and a different role when he is in with primarily bench players.

Per/36, Anfernee doesn't like your face!

 

[wizenheimer]

Per/36, Anfernee's assists increase when he shares the floor with Sharpe.

It's amusing to me, not saying you do it or have done it, that people clamor for a bench scorer, a Jordan Clarkson sort of gunner to come in off of our bench for a scoring punch. Anfernee is used precisely in that role, and people hate him for it. Sometimes a starter could also be in conjunction with the reserves and viewed as a player with a different role. Anfernee is one role with the starters, and a different role when he is in with primarily bench players.

I know that somewhere that are stats for which player assists another player. Not sure where it is or if it's behind a paywall

 

[handiman]

but please, for the guy that's arguing that CJ is elite and my standard is too restrictive, what is your standard? Is elite the top-50 players in the league? which direction would you go from 50? And right now what would you say CJ's rank is in the NBA? Since you spent a lot of time trashing me for my opinion, show what yours is

Somewhere in the 20-30 range, between All-Star squad size and the number of teams in the league. You have to figure there's roughly one elite player per team. With top teams having 2 or 3 of them, there'd otherwise be far too many teams lacking someone they could consider elite with a more limited definition. And I don't think GMs view things that way.

If you look back, you'll see that I didn't call CJ currently elite. I referred to at his peak, and that Olshey was right for considering him an elite prospect. Even if the #13 is an outlier, it wasn't his only year being ranked high enough to be in the elite discussion. Getting bent out of shape for having your opinion trashed, while missing the gist of what you're framing an argument against, is again Olshey-like irony. I'm beginning to see why you hate him so much. No one likes having a mirror held up in front of them.

 

[wizenheimer]

Somewhere in the 20-30 range, between All-Star squad size and the number of teams in the league. You have to figure there's roughly one elite player per team. With top teams having 2 or 3 of them, there'd otherwise be far too many teams lacking someone they could consider elite with a more limited definition. And I don't think GMs view things that way.

I made a list of each conference earlier in the thread...players who I believe are clearly better than CJ. There were 41-42 of them with about 10 more that are comparable with CJ. You'd have to place CJ over more than half of those players to get him in the top 20, and I think you'd look like kind of crazy if you did. I think it would be a real stretch to even get him in the top 30 by eliminating 11 or 12 of those guys

If you look back, you'll see that I didn't call CJ currently elite. I referred to at his peak, and that Olshey was right for considering him an elite prospect.

Olshey's opinion on CJ doesn't mean fuck-all, then or now. Olshey thought Roy Hibbert, Greg Monroe, & Chandler Parsons were worth max contracts. Olsheythought CJ was more valuable than Paul George and Jimmy Butler. He thought Evan Turner was worth 18M/year and Meyers worth 10M/year. He thought of himself as having done a great job in the 2017 draft. Olshey made a career out of being wrong

I wasn't disputing that Olshey had an extremely inflated view of CJ's talent and value. I was saying he was wrong about CJ's talent and very wrong about the fit with Dame, and that both misconceptions were clear very early in the experiment

Even if the #13 is an outlier, it wasn't his only year being ranked high enough to be in the elite discussion.

Dame was clearly an elite player by the time he was 25 or 26; he's still clearly elite at 32. CP3 was elite for for well more than a decade; maybe closer to 15 years than 10. Lebron & Curry the same. Giannis & Jokic will be at an elite level for many years to come. Wilt, Bird, Magic, MJ...they stayed on top for lots of years

maybe being elite is as simple as getting there and remaining there for a lot of years. That's what real elite talent will do; elite talent has staying power. More clearly, elite talent is obvious. On the other hand, the talent of any player who was maybe/maybe-not elite for a single season was only a mirage. Stands to reason if CJ was top-15 at 27, his "peak", he'd still be at 31

Getting bent out of shape for having your opinion trashed, while missing the gist of what you're framing an argument against, is again Olshey-like irony. I'm beginning to see why you hate him so much. No one likes having a mirror held up in front of them.

yeah...I've noticed that about you....that you can't seem to have a disagreement with somebody without getting personal and hurling insults. Here's a hint: it's not persuasive. And LOL at the "mirror" stuff...whatever you say Sigmund

 

[THE HCP]

Did somebody above use making an all star game as a way to judge how good a player is or isn’t? Wow.

 

[handiman]

I made a list of each conference earlier in the thread...players who I believe are clearly better than CJ. There were 41-42 of them with about 10 more that are comparable with CJ. You'd have to place CJ over more than half of those players to get him in the top 20, and I think you'd look like kind of crazy if you did. I think it would be a real stretch to even get him in the top 30 by eliminating 11 or 12 of those guys

I was answering your question about what standard I would assign to elite, not where I would rank CJ currently.

 

[STOMP]

CJ was a great pick, the problem isn't his talent, the problem was always the fit next to Dame and NO's stubbornness to trade away the one great pick he actually made.

yes Soapy picked CJ, but in doing so he passed on Giannis. He wiffed on the best opportunity he had to put together a contender & you're calling that great?

Dame + Giannis the last decade together...

STOMP

 

[MickZagger]

yes Soapy picked CJ, but in doing so he passed on Giannis. He wiffed on the best opportunity he had to put together a contender & you're calling that great?

Dame + Giannis the last decade together...

STOMP

To be fair (and I think Olshey is scum as well) but 14 teams whiffed on Giannis. He had a lot of question marks and was super duper raw coming into the league.

 

[Hoopguru]

To be fair (and I think Olshey is scum as well) but 14 teams whiffed on Giannis. He had a lot of question marks and was super duper raw coming into the league.

I spent a lot of time in Milwaukee when they drafted him and there was huge skepticism on them drafting the Greek Freak.

 

[Natebishop3]

To be fair (and I think Olshey is scum as well) but 14 teams whiffed on Giannis. He had a lot of question marks and was super duper raw coming into the league.

Yeah I get that, but I still don't understand drafting a 6'3 combo guard the year after drafting Dame.

 

[MickZagger]

Yeah I get that, but I still don't understand drafting a 6'3 combo guard the year after drafting Dame.

oh I know. I can’t stand undersized guards. Especially 2 guards. I said it for a long time and still feel this way, but CJ and Simons are best suited for coming off the bench in a spark plug type role. Because they can score in bunches but can’t guard a chair so their impact on the game almost cancels each other out.

 

[STOMP]

I spent a lot of time in Milwaukee when they drafted him and there was huge skepticism on them drafting the Greek Freak.

In evaluating a GM's moves in hindsight, why does what the fans or press thought back then matter one iota? Their expertise in projecting talent is largely what separates a good GM from the bad.

Unless you are a Bucks fan there is nothing "great" about Olshey passing on Giannis to draft CJ

STOMP

 

[STOMP]

To be fair (and I think Olshey is scum as well) but 14 teams whiffed on Giannis. He had a lot of question marks and was super duper raw coming into the league.

I don't believe there was much if any highlight tapes for us mere fans to look at of Antetokounmo coming into the draft... I didn't see them anyway. Giannis didn't attend the combine either. However, the first time I set eyes on him his rookie year I thought holy shit! A long, super athletic & coordinated Big with a superior handle jumped off the screen. Being the youngest in that draft should have brushed aside any lack of a skills concerns... plenty of time to teach those if he seems a good kid. It's not like Paul wasn't giving Neil the resources to explore interesting International prospects.

Yes it's easier for management to get an evaluation on a 4 year college guy, but at his size Giannis's talents were even less subtle and rare then Shaedon's. Any decent scout should have been extremely intrigued.



STOMP

 

[Hoopguru]

In evaluating a GM's moves in hindsight, why does what the fans or press thought back then matter one iota? Their expertise in projecting talent is largely what separates a good GM from the bad.

Unless you are a Bucks fan there is nothing "great" about Olshey passing on Giannis to draft CJ

STOMP

Oh I agree and as they have more than one big league team in the state it didn't fester in the press or with fans. And you are right in that fans or the press's opinion doesn't matter one iota much like opinions on here don't matter one iota. Chatter and crickets.

 

[handiman]

I don't believe there was much if any highlight tapes for us mere fans to look at of Antetokounmo coming into the draft... I didn't see them anyway. Giannis didn't attend the combine either. However, the first time I set eyes on him his rookie year I thought holy shit! A long, super athletic & coordinated Big with a superior handle jumped off the screen. Being the youngest in that draft should have brushed aside any lack of a skills concerns... plenty of time to teach those if he seems a good kid. It's not like Paul wasn't giving Neil the resources to explore interesting International prospects.

By his own admission, it took Giannis a year or so to figure out how serious he needed to be in order to excel in the league. Reading between the lines, that means he hadn't shown those qualities pre-draft, which would have made projecting his growth pretty difficult.

 

[STOMP]

By his own admission, it took Giannis a year or so to figure out how serious he needed to be in order to excel in the league. Reading between the lines, that means he hadn't shown those qualities pre-draft, which would have made projecting his growth pretty difficult.

So before he decided to be serious about hoops Giannis put together the highlight tape I linked? All he was showing off to scouts was huge, fast, coordinated & really young... and then down the line when he turned 19 he got serious?

Thats pretty much my point. Had Soapy shown some foresight, the chances of a Neil Olshey day parade down Broadway would be significantly higher. That draft was the crossroads where he could have put together a dynasty but didn't... how is that "great"?

STOMP

 

[handiman]

So before he decided to be serious about hoops Giannis put together the highlight tape I linked? All he was showing off to scouts was huge, fast, coordinated & really young... and then down the line when he turned 19 he got serious?

I'm with HCP as far as the value of highlight tapes... They're misleading as often as they're useful for projecting.

Giannis obviously showed great athletic potential, to be a mid-1st round pick with very little known about him. But, that only puts him the Darius Miles category of potential. It's what head they end up having on their shoulders that dictates how they develop.

 

[Hoopguru]

he
He was almost 19 when he entered the NBA.

 

[THE HCP]

Dallas traded away Dirk for the Tractor. They were due for some good draft karma.

 

[THE HCP]

I'm with HCP as far as the value of highlight tapes... They're misleading as often as they're useful for projecting.

Giannis obviously showed great athletic potential, to be a mid-1st round pick with very little known about him. But, that only puts him the Darius Miles category of potential. It's what head they end up having on their shoulders that dictates how they develop.

Ahhh the old highlight tape.
Just saw a couple of my daughters teammates latest reels…. Horrible. My daughter asked me to help out her friends over the last 18 months. It’s a wonder what some music and flashy editing can do.
I should have been charging these kid’s rich Lake Oswego families. Ha!!!

 

[Phatguysrule]

I'm comfortable with waiting. We knew the risks when we drafted him. The options were take a flyer on Sharpe or go get someone like Sochan who is going to be nothing more than a role player his entire career.

Or maybe trade for #11 and Julius Randle...

 

[STOMP]

I'm with HCP as far as the value of highlight tapes... They're misleading as often as they're useful for projecting.

Giannis obviously showed great athletic potential, to be a mid-1st round pick with very little known about him. But, that only puts him the Darius Miles category of potential. It's what head they end up having on their shoulders that dictates how they develop.

A highlight tape is only enough to give a glimpse of what a prospect might be like, of course it's not enough to draft a kid off. A good GM and front office sees an intriguing highlight tape or gets a hot tip from scouts and then pursues that prospect to learn more about them. If that prospect is overseas, they get on their private jet as they have the resources and thats the job. They talk to the prospect's teammates, coaches, opposing coaches, teachers/mentors & of course the prospect themselves. They put him through private workouts and watch game tapes. Very quickly the youngest and best athlete in the draft wouldn't be a mystery.

Neil blew this opportunity to draft a younger, bigger, more athletic & grounded prospect then Darius Miles. He wasn't coming straight out of HS, he'd played professionally in Athens for 2 years in their Senior league... he was an All Star there at 17. Major European professional clubs were trying to sign him when he went for the NBA instead. While he was unknown to peons like you & I, he was not an unknown prospect. His physical talents were obvious, I don't get why you're making excuses.

STOMP

 

[STOMP]

he
He was almost 19 when he entered the NBA.

oh the horror, at 18 he's only KD sized (and a lot more athletic).

Any decent medical staff can project what sort of weight a young man's frame will carry. But "great" job Neil, way to safely draft the crafty/undersized shooting guard instead who went to college 4 years.

STOMP

 

[TBpup]

Dallas traded away Dirk for the Tractor. They were due for some good draft karma.

Dallas never traded away Dirk, the Buck did. Stop mowing frozen lawns long enough to figure it out. Then post.

 

[julius]

Dallas traded away Dirk for the Tractor. They were due for some good draft karma.

tho I know that you just reversed the teams, if there's a team due for some good draft karma, it's situated in Portland.