Shit Getting Ugly

[MickZagger]

I think all Americans should make a decent living. I just don't think uneducated men and women should make more money than men and women who teach our children in schools.

Every American should get a college degree and we should do away with minimum wage and open our borders.

:MARIS61:

 

[Masbee]

40 years ago when somebody had a blue collar job that made him the equivalent of $60k/year, enough to support a stay-at-home wife, a couple kids who were college-bound, and a house in a decent neighborhood, it wasn't even that remarkable. Now it's practically a crime.

Depressing.

skilled blue collar workers - yes, I agree in principal.

Unskilled. No way. Float your way through high school, maybe even drop out, and then expect to sail on an easy carpet ride thanks to the union - that is one of the signs of raw political power gone wrong. It is one of the reasons unions are so reviled. They don't understand old fashioned fairness and common sense.

 

[barfo]

skilled blue collar workers - yes, I agree in principal.

Unskilled. No way. Float your way through high school, maybe even drop out, and then expect to sail on an easy carpet ride thanks to the union - that is one of the signs of raw political power gone wrong. It is one of the reasons unions are so reviled. They don't understand old fashioned fairness and common sense.

So, high school is what makes a man? Isn't it possible that some people who don't do well in high school later turn out ok?

barfo

 

[MickZagger]

skilled blue collar workers - yes, I agree in principal.

Unskilled. No way. Float your way through high school, maybe even drop out, and then expect to sail on an easy carpet ride thanks to the union - that is one of the signs of raw political power gone wrong. It is one of the reasons unions are so reviled. They don't understand old fashioned fairness and common sense.

Those with a college education just cant fathom that someone without one is making more money than they. Who's going to do the back breaking grunt work for $15 bucks an hour? That much money goes real far in todays economy. Unions aren't going anywhere, its the backbone of the middle class.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

i think a few people on this board were bitten by unions as children

as if people making 60k are ruining this country?

 

[THE HCP]

Those with a college education just cant fathom that someone without one is making more money than they.

My mom remarried about 10 years ago and this guy and myself do not get along at all. He's got his masters in something and I have 2 years from Mt. Hood CC. You should have seen his reaction when he found out accidentally that I made 40K more then him a year. Take that you college educated snobby bitches..... all of you!!!!!!!

 

[Masbee]

There are about 50 million uninsured today. This trend didn't start the day Obama took office:

http://employers-rx.com/hr-outsourcing-solutions/tag/small-business

Want to know why that graph looks like it does:

In 1993 my company provided health insurance from Blue Cross Oregon (nice plan, go to any doctor you want) for all the employees. Cost: $88 per month.

Now, with a far more restrictive plan (to "save" costs), on an HMO based Kaiser plan, we are paying $435 per month.

A policy comparable to the Blue Cross plan is about $1,000 per month.

There are a lot of reasons for the skyrocketing costs of health care and thus health insurance.

Until the root causes of the skyrocketing costs are addressed there is no solution.

ObamaCare did NOTHING substantive to address costs, and many economists agree will only drive cost ever higher - increased demand without addressing supply almost always leads to higher costs.

 

[Masbee]

So, high school is what makes a man? Isn't it possible that some people who don't do well in high school later turn out ok?

barfo

Go to trade school. Become an apprentice. Learn a trade. Plumber. Electrician. Heavy Equiptment Operator. Etc. MM was talking about unskilled labor.

 

[MickZagger]

My mom remarried about 10 years ago and this guy and myself do not get along at all. He's got his masters in something and I have 2 years from Mt. Hood CC. You should have seen his reaction when he found out accidentally that I made 40K more then him a year. Take that you college educated snobby bitches..... all of you!!!!!!!

Haha, exactly. I remember when I was coming out of high school and a buddy's dad was dead set that you had to go to a University, blah, blah, blah... We'd go rounds about it. He absolutely hated unions. He had his Masters Degree and was unemployed trying to make ends meet as a freelance artist. I could see how those types could definitely have sour grapes towards unions.

I'm the type that would much rather be out there doing back-breaking work. Its just the way I am. Shoot me if I ever had to work a desk job.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

unskilled labor.

what exactly are you talking about? something easy to learn?

 

[julius]

My mom remarried about 10 years ago and this guy and myself do not get along at all. He's got his masters in something and I have 2 years from Mt. Hood CC. You should have seen his reaction when he found out accidentally that I made 40K more then him a year. Take that you college educated snobby bitches..... all of you!!!!!!!

accidentally? you mean accidentally as in "oops, I just let my paycheck slip out"...

 

[PapaG]

So, one union attacked the Port of Longview because the owners let another union operate there with lower wages and benefits.

Because of this, one union storms the Port, takes people hostage, dumps the cargo, ruins the brakes on the trains, and it's all supposed to be good?

If you Dems had a media that was honest, this would be all over the news.

 

[MickZagger]

The Dems do have a media thats honest, its called Fox News....

 

[barfo]

If you Dems had a media that was honest, this would be all over the news.

You have a point. Liberal rags like the New York Times would never print this story.

barfo

 

[Natebishop3]

Haha, exactly. I remember when I was coming out of high school and a buddy's dad was dead set that you had to go to a University, blah, blah, blah... We'd go rounds about it. He absolutely hated unions. He had his Masters Degree and was unemployed trying to make ends meet as a freelance artist. I could see how those types could definitely have sour grapes towards unions.

I'm the type that would much rather be out there doing back-breaking work. Its just the way I am. Shoot me if I ever had to work a desk job.

This only proves that some people spend way too much time and money going to college for worthless arts degrees. I have one friend with a bachelors in linguistics... can't get a job. Another has a bachelors in theater. Can't get a job. It's like these people don't actually think about what kind of job they will do after they finish school. They just enjoy the classes and want to bang the hot girl in the english class. It's all fun and games until uncle sam comes to collect the student loans.

 

[Denny Crane]

Which mostly doesn't take effect until 2014.

barfo

Not true. A number of the tax hike provisions in the bill took effect in 2009, 2010, and 2011.

 

[barfo]

Not true. A number of the tax hike provisions in the bill took effect in 2009, 2010, and 2011.

That's odd. I could have sworn that the bill was passed in March 2010 and contained no provisions retroactive to 2009. But I'm sure you are right about that, and that the very minor changes made in those years caused people to lose their health insurance.

barfo

 

[chris_in_pdx]

Unskilled laborers should not make that much money.

CEOs should not make as much money as they do.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[Mediocre Man]

CEOs should not make as much money as they do.

You can't have it both ways.

I don't think they should either. And why can't I have it both ways?

Unskilled laborers making 50-60k a year is insane. Just as insane is a CEO making multi millions. However, I have less of a problem with the CEO's because they aren't governed by a union. If a CEO does a shitty job, they can be fired. If a union employee does a shitty job, it is still almost impossible to fire them. Also. A great CEO should make a lot of money because he is either making others a lot of money in the stock market, or helping to create a better business that employs more people. A shitty teacher or unskilled union worker should make more simply because they have seniority. How anyone could disagree with this is beyond me, but I know there are many that do

 

[Denny Crane]

That's odd. I could have sworn that the bill was passed in March 2010 and contained no provisions retroactive to 2009. But I'm sure you are right about that, and that the very minor changes made in those years caused people to lose their health insurance.

barfo

No, the coming giant tax bills in ObamaCare are disincentive for employers to keep paying for coverage. A 50 person company is going to have a $150K minimum tax bill coming soon.

 

[Denny Crane]

CEOs should not make as much money as they do.

You can't have it both ways.

Why shouldn't they?

Why should you make as much as you do? (Rhetorical question). Why should Mel Gibson make $150M on a picture he produces? &c

 

[PapaG]

Unions - making friends and influencing people.

"You're not with the PR staff, are you?"

"That's my name. Fuck You Cocksucker."

[video=youtube;wFHBGGvuQhA]

I had always wondered what barfo did for a living.

 

[mook]

I don't think they should either. And why can't I have it both ways?

Unskilled laborers making 50-60k a year is insane. Just as insane is a CEO making multi millions. However, I have less of a problem with the CEO's because they aren't governed by a union. If a CEO does a shitty job, they can be fired. If a union employee does a shitty job, it is still almost impossible to fire them. Also. A great CEO should make a lot of money because he is either making others a lot of money in the stock market, or helping to create a better business that employs more people. A shitty teacher or unskilled union worker should make more simply because they have seniority. How anyone could disagree with this is beyond me, but I know there are many that do

CEO salaries are often determined by a Board of Directors that make their salary decisions based on lots of things outside of competence and market rates.

For example, a great deal of their income is based on stock performance. While that sounds smart, it actually rewards CEO's who take excessive risk:
http://blogs.hbr.org/martin/2011/06/volatility-the-nasty-truth-abo.html

To understand how, let's model stock-based compensation in two possible worlds: A CEO whose stock has followed the S&P more or less exactly and a CEO whose stock has remained steady over the same period. Assume both took the reins on January 1, 2007 and are still there. (If you want to follow along in Excel, here's a spreadsheet.)
The first CEO, let's call him Thrill-a-Minute Tom, has had a wild ride. Using the S&P500 as a proxy, and setting the January 1, 2007 stock price at $100/share, Tom's share price at the beginning of each year is as follows: 2008 — $102; 2009 - $66; 2010 — $ 80; and 2011 — $90. Using the same indexing approach, the current stock price would be $94. So after a precipitous drop, Tom has led his company back to within 6% of the 2007 starting point. Most public company CEOs could tell a similar tale.
The second CEO, who we'll call Steady Eddie, was able to buck the market trend. He managed carefully and proactively and managed to keep the stock flat at $100/share from 2007 through to the present.
Who is the more valuable CEO? Whose compensation should be higher? Should it be Thrill-a-Minute Tom, who saw massive volatility and a net loss of 6% over the period? Or should it be Steady Eddie, who avoided ups and down, protected investors' capital and ended up 6% higher than Tom? Based on our current models of stock-based compensation, it's clear who will come out ahead. Tom leaves Eddie in the dust.
...
As far as CEO compensation goes, under the current stock-based compensation model, it is unambiguously better to have your stock plummet and then partly recover than to have the stock stay steady over the same period. Though they wouldn't want to admit it, the crash of 2008 wasn't all that bad for the vast majority of big-company CEOs. With the exception of those few CEOs who were sacked, most had terrific air cover: "Our stock may be down 50% but so is everybody else. Really, I'm doing well, all things considered."
Even better, CEOs got tranches of options and/or grants at super-low prices — in some cases lots of them to keep the CEO in question from being depressed that his/her existing options were 'so far underwater'. As the market dragged their stock prices up with everyone else's, these CEOs made out like, well, bandits.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Unskilled laborers

i asked before and got nowhere, what do you mean by this?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

My mom remarried about 10 years ago and this guy and myself do not get along at all. He's got his masters in something and I have 2 years from Mt. Hood CC. You should have seen his reaction when he found out accidentally that I made 40K more then him a year. Take that you college educated snobby bitches..... all of you!!!!!!!

So what will your position be as a parent if your kid says they decided to enter the working world instead of going to college?

Personally, I don't think if you have an higher education, that means you are entitled to make more money. I do think college is a good idea for most everyone coming out of high school because a college atmoshpere is a great environment to continue to grow and challege yourself AND a college degree opens more doors to give a person the opportunity to make money (if that is what they want).

But outside of wallstreet (which I am skeptical about), I find the people that work the hardest and/or are innovative are the ones who are eventually rewarded through raises.

 

[PapaG]

i asked before and got nowhere, what do you mean by this?

It means 'you think yer better thun me???'.

 

[MickZagger]

That video is funny. Longshoreman are surely a different breed. To clump in all union workers like that is pretty naive though.

 

[THE HCP]

We are about to have a vote to unionize all the TV Broadcast workers in Portland. I joked around at the last meeting and volunteered to be the muscle of our new union. The big wig union reps from back east did NOT think that was funny..... even though the whole room was cracking up!

 

[PapaG]

We are about to have a vote to unionize all the TV Broadcast workers in Portland. I joked around at the last meeting and volunteered to be the muscle of our new union. The big wig union reps from back east did NOT think that was funny..... even though the whole room was cracking up!

Best of luck. ~10% of that paycheck will be going to those bigwigs, and if you don't pay it, they have their own muscle that will visit you.

 

[Masbee]

i asked before and got nowhere, what do you mean by this?

It is not worth answering because it is a stupid question.

Unskilled means no training required. Mmmkay?

Skilled requires years in some combination of education, training and/or apprenticeship.

Folks who spend years PAYING out money, earning little to nothing so they are more productive/valuable usually do and should make significantly more than those that make none of those very significant sacrifices.

So, if, according to Unions, unskilled are worth $60k per year, what should skilled workers make? $120k? See the problem?