Shooting at Clackamas Town Center Macys

[Rastapopoulos]

You're the one who made the idiotic comparison. Don't blame me for your lack of reasoning ability.

Ah, I think I see why you ask. I don't think further conversation will be productive.

 

[maxiep]

Of course not. And I'm sure you're asking that about all the others right now. In fact, you're just as angry at the Republican-led congress, you're so non-political.

You bet your ass if there's an undefended consulate I'd be pissed about it. However, I'm not a member of Congress, so what would you like me to do? And as for the pussies in the House getting rolled on tax increases, I'm furious with them.

I don't give two shits about politics. I care about ideas and principles. But you keep on throwing poop at the wall; eventually something will stick.

 

[Natebishop3]

Ah, the Glen Beck analogy. So the shooter was equivalent to a drunk driver? Really? Presumably this drunk driver put on a flack jacket and drove into a mall on purpose. Oh, and this was a special car that is designed especially for killing people. If that was true, I think I'd be opposed to that.



Of course it's sad when people die. It's also sad that people are able to do things like this much more often and more easily than in any other country because every single elected official jumps when the NRA says "jump".

My point wasn't to compare the two methods of killing people, but to ask why you don't jump on this forum all up in arms over someone killing an innocent person with their car? People use cars every day. The United States has one of the highest per capita car ownership in the world, and the availability and testing to get a license is shameful. How many people die from negligent driving every day? Why not remove cars from the world?

They hurt the environment.

They further our reliance on fossil fuels.

They are extremely wasteful in terms of the energy used to create them and then dispose of them.

They kill thousands of Americans.

Why don't you throw a fit and rage about car ownership in America? You are partially responsible for the depletion of our ozone. You should be ashamed.

 

[maxiep]

I would say showing the dead body from the attack in pictures to complain about what happen is politicizing it. I recall you defended that use. So ok to show dead bodies to point out how stupid something was handled, but not ok to complain about gun laws after people get shot. Makes perfect sense.

Showing a dead body? Go ahead and show the victims from this tragedy. I think people should see more death on the television; it would show the consequences of violence. Hell, we wouldn't show the people jumping from the WTC for YEARS. We still haven't seen Bin Laden. Ridiculous. Show it.

And they're not gun laws; it's the Bill of Rights.

 

[RR7]

My point wasn't to compare the two methods of killing people, but to ask why you don't jump on this forum all up in arms over someone killing an innocent person with their car? People use cars every day. The United States has one of the highest per capita car ownership in the world, and the availability and testing to get a license is shameful. How many people die from negligent driving every day? Why not remove cars from the world?

They hurt the environment.

They further our reliance on fossil fuels.

They are extremely wasteful in terms of the energy used to create them and then dispose of them.

They kill thousands of Americans.

Why don't you throw a fit and rage about car ownership in America? You are partially responsible for the depletion of our ozone. You should be ashamed.

Cars, however, do serve a useful purpose outside of injuring or killing people, right? DO guns also, say, cut bread, or cook potatoes, or get you from point a to point b, or change the channel, or type a paper? Or do they really only serve one primary purpose. HUGE difference in your analogy.

 

[maxiep]

Cars, however, do serve a useful purpose outside of injuring or killing people, right? DO guns also, say, cut bread, or cook potatoes, or get you from point a to point b, or change the channel, or type a paper? Or do they really only serve one primary purpose. HUGE difference in your analogy.

Defending your home and killing food are pretty damn useful if you ask me.

 

[THE HCP]

Not sure if some of you know this, but I was an MP in the Army back in the day and trained and fired every weapon imaginable. I'm all for peoples rights, but when those rights lead to the deaths of innocent people, something has to change! I lost a few good friends back in HS because of this same shit! Very sad that an individual believes that it is their RIGHT to carry an automatic machine gun down the street.......... very sad.

 

[maxiep]

Not sure if some of you know this, but I was an MP in the Army back in the day and trained and fired every weapon imaginable. I'm all for peoples rights, but when those rights lead to the deaths of innocent people, something has to change! I lost a few good friends back in HS because of this same shit! Very sad that an individual believes that it is their RIGHT to carry an automatic machine gun down the street.......... very sad.

HCP, anything can be dangerous. What if that person used a car to run down people on the street? What if that person bought fertilizer and fuel oil to make a bomb? Are you going to outlaw fertilizer, fuel oil and cars?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

seriously, if they take our guns away, we as a people are REALLY fucked... we NEED guns to keep our government from stomping on our faces, if nobody has guns but the government, thats game over

look around...every sane person should be in this line

 

[3RA1N1AC]

HCP, anything can be dangerous. What if that person used a car to run down people on the street? What if that person bought fertilizer and fuel oil to make a bomb? Are you going to outlaw fertilizer, fuel oil and cars?

this argument does nothing to help the cause imo...guns are for killing, cars are for driving

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Guns don't kill people. BenDavis kills people (i.e. bums).

 

[RR7]

seriously, if they take our guns away, we as a people are REALLY fucked... we NEED guns to keep our government from stomping on our faces, if nobody has guns but the government, thats game over

look around...every sane person should be in this line

they'll just start running us over with bullet proof cars. Face it, we're fucked regardless.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

My point wasn't to compare the two methods of killing people, but to ask why you don't jump on this forum all up in arms over someone killing an innocent person with their car? People use cars every day. The United States has one of the highest per capita car ownership in the world, and the availability and testing to get a license is shameful. How many people die from negligent driving every day? Why not remove cars from the world?

Tell you what, Nate - you start the thread and I'll contribute to it. You're quite right.

Why don't you throw a fit and rage about car ownership in America? You are partially responsible for the depletion of our ozone. You should be ashamed.

"Throw a fit"? I'm far too mature for that. It's practically impossible to type when you're doing that.

But I do think the state of public transport in America is pathetic. Of course, not in Portland, I'm given to understand.

But just for shits and giggles, what function akin to "getting to work" are guns performing? It doesn't seem to be lowering the crime rate or saving people's lives, judging by America's abysmal showing compared with the rest of the developed world in both of those.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

they'll just start running us over with bullet proof cars. Face it, we're fucked regardless.

You think they're not doing that already? Don't you know Vince Foster was found with tire tracks all over him?

But fortunately, the second amendment guarantees me my right to own shoulder-launched missiles. Clearly that was the founders' intent. Those and dirty bombs.

 

[ABM]

http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/

The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:

Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).

For example, Norway has the highest rate of gun ownership in Western Europe, yet possesses the lowest murder rate. In contrast, Holland's murder rate is nearly the worst, despite having the lowest gun ownership rate in Western Europe. Sweden and Denmark are two more examples of nations with high murder rates but few guns. As the study's authors write in the report:

If the mantra "more guns equal more death and fewer guns equal less death" were true, broad cross-national comparisons should show that nations with higher gun ownership per capita consistently have more death. Nations with higher gun ownership rates, however, do not have higher murder or suicide rates than those with lower gun ownership. Indeed many high gun ownership nations have much lower murder rates. (p. 661)

Finally, and as if to prove the bumper sticker correct - that "gun don't kill people, people do" - the study also shows that Russia's murder rate is four times higher than the U.S. and more than 20 times higher than Norway. This, in a country that practically eradicated private gun ownership over the course of decades of totalitarian rule and police state methods of suppression. Needless to say, very few Russian murders involve guns.

The important thing to keep in mind is not the rate of deaths by gun - a statistic that anti-gun advocates are quick to recite - but the overall murder rate, regardless of means. The criminologists explain:

[P]er capita murder overall is only half as frequent in the United States as in several other nations where gun murder is rarer, but murder by strangling, stabbing, or beating is much more frequent. (p. 663 - emphases in original)

It is important to note here that Profs. Kates and Mauser are not pro-gun zealots. In fact, they go out of their way to stress that their study neither proves that gun control causes higher murder rates nor that increased gun ownership necessarily leads to lower murder rates. (Though, in my view, Prof. John Lott's More Guns, Less Crime does indeed prove the latter.) But what is clear, and what they do say, is that gun control is ineffectual at preventing murder, and apparently counterproductive.......

 

[3RA1N1AC]

if a few random killings get 100 million people to voluntarily give up their hundreds of millions of guns, so be it

the government stealing them in the name of the so called "greater good"?

bullshit

 

[maxiep]

this argument does nothing to help the cause imo...guns are for killing, cars are for driving

Guns are also a deterrent, much like a lock on a door or a guard dog.

 

[maxiep]

if a few random killings get 100 million people to voluntarily give up their hundreds of millions of guns, so be it

the government stealing them in the name of the so called "greater good"?

bullshit

When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyrrany. Right now, I fear the government; it certainly doesn't fear me.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

The "ACRU"? I'm sure that's a very reliable source of information. I just wonder why I've never heard of it before... Oh, and the cited study? Here's a picture of one of the authors:

And I'm sure you'll be interested in this assessment of his work, ABM.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Guns are also a deterrent, much like a lock on a door or a guard dog.

because they can shoot and kill you

guns are for killing, anyone that pulls a gun out as a "deterrent" better be prepared to use it

 

[3RA1N1AC]

When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyrrany. Right now, I fear the government; it certainly doesn't fear me.

dont sell americans short, the government is petrified of us, or else it wouldnt spend so much time pitting us against each other

 

[Rastapopoulos]

When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyrrany. Right now, I fear the government; it certainly doesn't fear me.

Fear - that's another feature of the conservative brain. Also the gun-owner's.
I hear Somalia is refreshingly government-free. You might want to give it a shot. You can see if the consulates are well-protected while you're over there, as I know that's an area of interest for you.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

dont sell americans short, the government is petrified of us, or else it wouldnt spend so much time pitting us against each other

One disservice the X-Files did was to give the impression that the government is well-organized in its villainy. Besides, don't forget your "Americans are naturally psychotically violent" theory - presumably The Government can just sit back and chortle.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

the natives had it right, no government, no taxes, women did all the work, guys hunted and fished all day and fucked all night, smoked weed and ate mushrooms, and all the food they could eat

too bad they never invented the wheel, that kinda blew it for them

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Guns are also a deterrent, much like a lock on a door or a guard dog.

Don't remind me of the horrific World War I battles where thousands were slaughtered by locks and guard dogs. Chokes me up every time.

 

[RR7]

the natives had it right, no government, no taxes, women did all the work, guys hunted and fished all day and fucked all night, smoked weed and ate mushrooms, and all the food they could eat

too bad they never invented the wheel, that kinda blew it for them

They invented it and then suppressed it. It kept rolling over and killing people.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

the natives had it right, no government, no taxes, women did all the work, guys hunted and fished all day and fucked all night, smoked weed and ate mushrooms, and all the food they could eat
too bad they never invented the wheel, that kinda blew it for them

Too bad they were slaughtered by religious nuts bearing smallpox infected blankets. THAT kind of blew it for them.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

They invented it and then suppressed it. It kept rolling over and killing people.

But then only outlaws had wheels...

 

[3RA1N1AC]

One disservice the X-Files did was to give the impression that the government is well-organized in its villainy. Besides, don't forget your "Americans are naturally psychotically violent" theory - presumably The Government can just sit back and chortle.

im not sure where you are going with this, but if you dont think the cia is running this country/world, youve got blinders on

and to blame the gun for our murderous ways is imo kinda silly, its just the most efficient, cant blame the gun for being used, its a good tool

 

[Natebishop3]

Tell you what, Nate - you start the thread and I'll contribute to it. You're quite right.



"Throw a fit"? I'm far too mature for that. It's practically impossible to type when you're doing that.

But I do think the state of public transport in America is pathetic. Of course, not in Portland, I'm given to understand.

But just for shits and giggles, what function akin to "getting to work" are guns performing? It doesn't seem to be lowering the crime rate or saving people's lives, judging by America's abysmal showing compared with the rest of the developed world in both of those.

People bring up transportation, which we spend billions every year on, but we also spend a significant amount of money on protection. People are willing to open their pocket books because they want to feel safer. Guns provide people with a certain amount of protection in their homes. Regardless of how good your police are, they will not be able to save you from an intruder. The problem is wackos who are willing to use guns to take the lives of many people. I think many lives could be saved every year if there was:

More education on guns for children.

More testing for people who are mentally disturbed for earlier detection of people like the shooter.

Side note: Portland's transportation sucks just like everywhere else. We just spend billions of mass transit that nobody uses. I think I saw an article in the Oregonian that said that 80%+ of the people in this city still use cars.