Should Gorton scratch this season, commit to a one year rebuild

[kreidertime]

My answer is yes without it being a full, tank job. Rangers traded Duclair. However, they seem to have hit major homeruns with Buchnevich, Graves and now Saarela. Saarela has been awesome in the WJC's and great in a mans league in the world outside the NHL in my opinion. This article sums up his elite talent.

http://thehockeywriters.com/aleksi-saarela-hockey-prodigy-turns-prodigal-son

Graves is a guy I've been talking up for 2 years. All the reports from the AHL seem to point to this kid being a can't miss guy. He's starting to get PP time there with a shot over 100 mph at times. At 6'4, he'll be a fixture on the left side with Skjei for years.

I do not believe in tanking seasons. So I think the Rangers should try to make the playoffs this year for Hank but do it by dumping salary, going with young players received in deals and stock piling picks. I'm on board now with dealing Nash. If you look around the league, what you see is all these teams that sucked for years and tanked seasons are having their top 5 picks mature. It's more of other teams finally getting better than this teams players just sucking. Nashville has the cap room to afford Nash. I believe Nashville is regarded as the new great place to live. I think Nash would accept a deal there. Not impressed with their farm but for a first this year, a second next year and maybe a prospect like Vesey, it's a start. That then gives the Rangers options.

I would strongly look into dealing Stepan before his NTC kicks in. However, Hayes is more likely. You could make the argument trading Hayes and Stepan who are younger for young players, is not rebuilding but simply changing the roster. Both to me have been lazy this year. That is troubling and is a potential problem going forward. I think Boyle will waive his NTC and his value is up. Should be no problem trading a right handed, vet defenseman. A second round pick is certainly obtainable. However, I would like to think they can get a prospect like Khokhlachev from Boston who is looking for a vet defenseman this year. Rangers probably have to retain half of Boyle's salary for the rest of the year. They most likely would have to throw in a couple of prospects like Nieves and Iverson in that deal. Khokhlachev is not really a Boston type of player. They tend not to like players like him. Iverson fits the Bruins mold. This will ensure McIlrath playing the rest of the season. Not sure they could trade Girardi or Staal even if they agreed with the way they have played.

If you look a the standings, the Rangers are legitimately not that far from a high lottery pick. To me from what I've seen, this team has zero chance of competing for the cup this year. They aren't close to being good enough. They need to play McIlrath and Skjei the rest of the year. Maybe Graves the last 20 games. They need to get Buchnevich over here pronto. I don't see the Rangers being that much worse off going with McIlrath, Skjei and Buchnevich down the stretch plus what you get back from dealing Nash and Boyle compared to now. Only difference is you setup your future much better.

As far as Kreider goes. He's a moron. My ears would be listening if I was Gorton.

 

[kreidertime]

This will go against Chuck's, go for it all now strategy. However, even Chuck is starting to realize this team sucks and can't compete for a cup this season.

 

[chuckd3534]

There are 8 weeks left until the trade DL on Feb 29th. As we sit here today no shot this happens. If we are sitting here in 6 or 7 weeks and we are struggling/going nowhere...then all bets are off.

Before we get to that point I think Gorton will try and make a move to help this team now. See if mixing up this stale team will help. If it doesn't then I can see some moves geared towards next year happening. Not geared towards 3 or 4 years from now...but next year.

With all that said I think the first thing that needs to be figured out is what are we doing with Staal/Yandle. Reading how they talk about Staal, and the fact he has a NTC, tells me they will not try and deal him and instead will deal Yandle. Is what it is, but I don't think there is any shot we get back what we dealt to get him. Not much we can do about that now though. We need to bite the bullet and get something back for him. We cannot just let him walk, and at least we have McIlrath and Skjei ready to play D.

In hindsight the Yandle move was a bad move. I know people will disagree, but it was. Once we resigned Staal to me the focus of a deal including DuClair and a 1st round pick, which is a big haul, should have been a scoring forward (preferably a R shot)...not a 3rd pair LD...which is what Yandle is for our team now that Staal is resigned.

I get why they did it, viewed it as a 2 year window to win with Yandle, but even that is somewhat faulty thinking because if we didn't win the cup last season we would be faced with the how do we handle Yandle at the DL question this season. That's why I personally think they made the decision this won't be Cally or Zucc or Staal and we would keep Yandle for two playoff runs and let the chips fall where they may this summer. The fly in that ointment is the fact that we have really struggled this season so far, and the logic of keeping Yandle, when it seems that at best we are a longshot to win a cup, is low. So that is why now I do think they'll deal him if we don't improve big time.

My guess is we try and make a deal to get some life into this team over the next couple of weeks. If that doesn't work then you'll see something bigger around the DL. I would expect Yandle will go also around that timeframe if the first deal doesn't wake the team up.

Aside from the Staal/Yandle question I think the next question is what do you do with Kreider and Hayes (Etem is gone unless he does a 180 as he's been a disaster). Both have been awful. Do you try and deal them OR do you commit to keeping them and resigning them this off-season to bigger deals than they have now. That is also a very interesting question.

All I will say is Gorton will earn his money the next 6-8 weeks. What I can say is no shot this team does a rebuild beyond focusing on next season. Not with Hank at his age and some of their dmen with a lot of miles on them. We'll see what Gorton does...because this team is stale as can be as I have said for weeks now.

 

[chuckd3534]

This will go against Chuck's, go for it all now strategy. However, even Chuck is starting to realize this team sucks and can't compete for a cup this season.

Just because at the time WE were on board with the trades they made and the win now moves they made dump doesn't mean we also can't see this team is stale.

In hindsight we were wrong. We would have been right if they won the cup last season, but they didn't and we were all wrong. That's how sports works.

With that said we are where we are. We cannot go backwards and change what has happened already, so no need to rehash it over and over again. As I illustrated in my response it will be a very interesting 6-8 weeks for Gorton. He will earn his money I think. Let's see how he plays it, because he has to see what we all see...this team is stale and needs some changes. I don't think a major overhaul, which they won't do anyway, but I do think a couple of changes are needed for sure.

We'll see what he does.

 

[Ranger71]

We're f'd to some degree with Staal/ Girardi for 4 more years. Nobody will touch that with a telephone pole. That's 10m they can do absolutely nothing with to improve the team. That's a major problem.

 

[kreidertime]

You have to learn from Chicago. They have done 2 rebuilds. Keeping a core of 5 to 7 and then changing the team. That is what the morons running this team don't do. They hand out NTC's like they are candy. Idiotic. Clark has saved the organization with recent late round steals or the future would be a complete disaster. Nash has run his course here. There will be teams willing to take him. Especially since he only has 2 years on his contract after this season.

The first thing that needs to change is an organizational philosophy where NTC's are concerned. That change is simple. Unless the guy is a young, franchise talent, you don't give them out. Ever. It's nonsense. Second, this organization puts very little into drafting right handed shots high in the draft. It's a problem. Part of the problem with the offense is a lack of right handed shots. This team has very few, one timers because they have a team full of lefty shots. There is no balance. Third, the teams power forwards have low hockey IQ's. Thus, they really don't play like powerforwards. So in reality, the team doesn't have any power forwards which is a major problem. Thus why trading Kreider for a power forward prospect like Nick Ritchie on the Ducks is interesting. Where you certainly can probably get him and a second for Kreider. These are the types of aggressive ideas that Gorton needs to explore because this team f'n blows. It's not going to get better. It can be fixed but major changes need to be made. Soon.

 

[Ranger71]

Yup, Sather hamstrung the team just to appease two players for sentimental purposes. Dumb.

 

[chuckd3534]

Chicago is not the model in the sense that how do you replicate that as the NYR (how does any team)? Do we have two ultra studs like Kane and Toews to build around? Do we have a stud on D like Keith to build around (who BTW has a lower cap hit than Staal and essentially the same cap hit as Girardi)? We also have a goalie with an 8.5 mill cap hit, the Hawks would never pay a goalie that much, Crawford has a 6 mill cap hit.

So respectfully I don't see the comparison with the Hawks given their couple of high end pieces they built around. Plus that Keith deal was a total steal...home town discount through the roof for him...he could easily get 2 mill more per on the open market.

With that said I do agree on the NTC's. If players need them to give us a "home town discount" we should move on. Those aren't the right players AND truthfully while I do think Staal, G, Step could have gotten more on the open market I also don't think they would have gotten MUCH more and if they like it in NY they should have signed those deals without the NTC.

I am also still a Girardi fan. I think he is a solid dman and will continue to be that. I truthfully am not upset by his deal at all. It is the Staal deal that I hate and to me that's the deal that is going to kill us. I think G is the clearly better player...and Staal has 1 year more on his deal and a slightly higher cap hit. The Staal deal is the one I truly hate...and it f's us with Yandle as well.

Plus the biggest issue is having BOTH of them locked up long term...with Klein...with McD...and having kids like Skjei and McIlrath ready to play soon/now. That is also why it is the Staal deal to me that is the issue...we already had G resigned and these other guys long term. The play was to deal Staal for a forward at the DL if we could...and it was made even worse when we dealt for Yandle at the DL...he became our 3rd pair LD since we had Staal signed long term.

Is what it is. We need to find a way around it. All we can do.

 

[Ranger71]

If Eric re-signs in Carolina he probably would waive i would think, to go play with them but who knows. Girardi would probably be more stubborn about it. Maybe at least he can give us another year or two of decent play.

 

[theProdigy223]

Ah the old January sellers thread. Last time I read this, we ended up playing in the Stanley Cup Finals.

I think we'll see a move or two made to help, to see if the season is salvageable, before the front office decides to dismantle.

 

[chuckd3534]

We are on the same page Prod. I think that is the play also as mentioned. Step 1 before we decide if a step 2 is needed.

 

[theProdigy223]

We are on the same page Prod. I think that is the play also as mentioned. Step 1 before we decide if a step 2 is needed.

The issue, however, is that there won't be many deals to make before the deadline. There are far too many teams still in the hunt right now. Gorton is going to have to get very creative if he wants to get some help here while leaving enough time to, potentially, be sellers at the deadline

 

[chuckd3534]

No doubt. He will have to earn that money. It isn't easy to make a deal right now, but my hope is he can find a team that is willing to move a forward now and we can at least add that player before we decide how to play the DL.

Won't be easy though.

I also think that even if we do "rebuild" it will be for next season not 3 or 4 years from now. With Hank and the dmen we have, you don't rebuild for 3 or 4 years from now.

 

[Ranger71]

If they can get an impact prospect like PB over by the Super Bowl and make a deal for another forward maybe they can make a dent(and just make)in the playoffs. I think they need another vet dman too.

 

[kreidertime]

The issue, however, is that there won't be many deals to make before the deadline. There are far too many teams still in the hunt right now. Gorton is going to have to get very creative if he wants to get some help here while leaving enough time to, potentially, be sellers at the deadline

This is what would give Gorton a huge advantage in a one year rebuild. There are a lot of teams that haven't made the playoffs much over the past decade that are in it. That means they have GM's that are desperate to save their jobs or to be a hero to their fans by making the playoffs. Thus giving the Rangers a good chance to dump salary, dump players like Nash, Boyle, Yandle, Kreider and hopefully Staal for a very good return. This team is nothing like the previous teams Prod. The other teams in the league for the most part stunk talent wise compared to the Rangers the previous 5 years. Now their young talents have matured. It is the Rangers that are not as talented as many teams around the league.

 

[chuckd3534]

I really don't see Nash being dealt.

To me Boyle is a huge who cares in the final 3 or 4 months of his career. If the team is out of it at the DL, I guess maybe they could flip him for a mid pick or something like that, assuming Boyle would want the chance at another run and would waive his NTC.

Staal OR Yandle will be dealt at some point. I would guess Yandle because I think the management still likes Staal and he has the NTC. If Yandle is dealt it will be very interesting to see what we get back in comparison to what we dealt away for him.

That leaves Hayes and Kreider. Honestly not sure what Gorton will do with these guys. If you keep them you will resign them this summer for more than their current deals. Or do you flip one for a piece that can better help you win in the short term of the next year or two? Tough call on these two.

 

[kreidertime]

I could absolutely see Nash being dealt. If the team is as high on Buchnevich as they appear to be, they will replace Nash with him. If Nash gets dealt, Kreider won't. I also don't think the Rangers will wait until the trade deadline. My guess is they want McIlrath and Skjei to get in as many games as possible this season. That's smart.

I like this kid Dano a lot that the Hawks traded for when they made the Saad deal. I wonder if the Rangers could steal him. Hawks apparently are looking to bolster their bottom defense pairing and forwards.

 

[chuckd3534]

We can make a friendly wager on that dump. I do not think they will deal Nash this season.

I also think they will try and make a move sooner rather than later, but I am in line with Prod. I believe the 1st deal they will try to make will be a deal to help this season and mix things up a little. If that doesn't work then I can see more moves geared towards next season happen prior to the trade DL.

Still think the biggest questions are Staal/Yandle AND what do you do with Hayes and Kreider.

 

[kreidertime]

I think Dom Moore is absolutely a player a team like the Hawks or Dallas would have a lot of interest in. Basically, the team is pretty much unwatchable at this point. How many times do I have to watch Nash take some pussy wrist shot on goal. I swear, this guy went from having a howitzer for a shot to a guy that looks like Jan Erixon shooting the puck.

 

[Messiah717]

I don't have a crystal ball but in standing pat I don't see things suddenly turning around for this roster. Not enough talent in places and far too many important pieces just coasting along. Nash is too worried about taking a hit to play in the middle of the ice so he mostly stays on the perimeter all the time. It's unacceptable and the coaches should've told him as much a while ago. He was on fire last season until he took a hit and then was never the same. Hardly scored and has carried that into this season. Hayes I can see having the proverbial sophomore slump so I'm willing to accept that. Kreider on the other hand is just a lazy clueless player who will frustrate for as long as you're willing to put up with him. The only bright side could be that he has done nothing to deserve a big contract nor should he be given one.

 

[chuckd3534]

I agree with you Mess. I doubt Hayes or Kreider get these long term big money deals as of today, but they will both get more than this year I'd think. So I do think there is a legit question about what you do with them.

On Nash, I agree and it is what it is. I don't see it changing, but I simply do not seeing us dealing him. We would have to take back less value than what he is worth on the ice IMO. Now maybe you can say it would be worth it to get rid of his cap hit, sure we would have to take some contract back which will offset some of the Nash savings, but I don't see the Rangers doing it. I think Nash will be here. That is my opinion and I clearly could be wrong, but my money is on Nash being here through this season at least, and most likely longer than that.

 

[strudwickisthebest]

The problem is the core on this team can't get IT done

 

[cagedlion]

Who do you consider CORE on this team?
Girardi, McDonagh, Stepan, Nash, Zuccarello, Brassard, Staal ?

Our CORE is definitely not on the high end!

 

[chuckd3534]

Add Hank as well of course. And the reason it isn't good enough is we lack the stud scorer. That is where Nash has let us down. That is what we thought we were acquiring when we dealt for Nash, but it hasn't worked out in the playoffs.

Still...with that said...we did make a SCF and an ECF with Nash...so we had our runs...and still can. We just need some extra firepower upfront.

Maybe if Buch comes over in February and we can deal a dman for a forward that will be enough. We do that Hayes/Kreider can wake the F up this team can still make a run...I truly believe that.

 

[Ranger71]

Girardi and Staal are not part of the core anymore, by a longshot. They're part of the, what's the word i'm looking for, i don't know, deterioration?

 

[chuckd3534]

As usual when discussing the D 71 you have ZERO objectivity and it has been that way for years.

And even if you think they stink, which you have thought for years, they are still part of the core. Being good or bad isn't the deciding factor about core or not, it is their contracts and how they are viewed by the management/coach. Girardi and Staal both wear A's...they are both held in very high regard by the coach...they both have long term contracts with NTC's...whether you like it or not clearly they are considered part of the core for this team.

 

[NYR31]

I know it's only January and some may think it's the typical debbie downer thread, but it's an interesting proposition from Dump and at least he's put thought into it for us to discuss.

I think CHI is a great example of how to turn a team over quickly and be successful. Yes, they have Kane/Toews who are studs, but A. having 2 studs doesn't guarantee you anything (just as PIT w/ Malkin and Crosby) and B. Leaves even less money to spend on the other players when your 2 best players have such large contracts. Easily one of the best run organizations in the league.

At this stage in Henrik's career i don't see us doing anything dramatic but issues that Dump has pointed out (lack of righty shots, NTC's) are spot on and real. Nash has been a disappointment (and carries a bigger cap hit than Toews/Kane did prior to this season) which really drags you down when your most talented player is about useless in the playoffs. I'd be all for trading him and trying our luck with someone else.

 

[chuckd3534]

You also need to factor in Keith on D...total stud on a huge discount deal (lower cap hit than Staal same as Girardi).

And up until this season the cap hits for Kane and Toews were both 6.3 mill, which is 4.2 less per or 8.4 less combined. Let's see how long they can sustain their success with those huge cap numbers. The cap hits for Crosby and Malkin were 8.7 mill each up until last season when Malkin jumped to 9.5 mill.

And they also got Hossa signed to a now not allowed deal under the new CBA that has only a 5.23 cap hit. And Seabrook's cap number goes up to 6.875 after this season.

So I am not saying there aren't elements we can take to use as a guide when working with a cap, but for us I don't think it is really apples to apples. And let's see what they do with Kane and Toews with huge cap hits now.

Personally I think the Hawks biggest advantage has been getting Hossa to sign under the old CBA, getting Kane and Towes to take very team friendly deals up until this season, and getting Keith to sign a ridiculously cap friendly deal. Now that Kane and Towes and Seabrook are all getting raises, and big raises for K&T, let's see if they can still sustain their success.

But I do agree there are elements we (or any team for that matter) can take from the Hawks with regards to cap management. Maybe it is working with your players to get them to take less to win. Maybe it is playing hardball a little more to get better cap hits...worked with Zucc.

So I do agree that the Hawks are a model the league should follow...I just don't know if it can be replicated though outside of being more frugal with your deals.

 

[chuckd3534]

I also really wonder if our model, huge cap hit goalie and big cap hit dmen, is a winning model. If you look now I think it is fair to wonder if we have too much money tied up in our D and goalie, and we don't have enough money to spend on our forwards.

Not sure, but it is fair to wonder that I think.

Hank is absolutely worth the cap hit he has...but do you need an 8.5 mill per cap hit goalie to win? Is it a winning formula to have a goalie with that big of a cap hit?

Fair questions I think. Not sure of the answers.