Simons is legit

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bobf said:
So you would trade Nurk plus another good player from the Blazers, say CJ, for top 5 player James Harden? I’m just following your stated rule. I wouldn’t even consider doing that and I’m not that hot on CJ.
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I would never trade for that flopper. WTF for?

I hate his game.

And he hasn't done shit in the playoffs. I'm good.
 
James lamphear said:
He still needs to work on his handles he got lucky couple times the ball bounce the right way. Still can't handle pressure on him on his dribble like end of the game situations and he needs work on his D. But he is getting there and show he can score at all 3 levels and show me he can hit clutch shots at end games situations. But this way you have off season to work on your weaknesses and continue strengthening your strengths.
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He has handles. They're very fundamental. It's about being stronger. He needs to get in the weight room.
 
dviss1 said:
I would never trade for that flopper. WTF for?

I hate his game.

And he hasn't done shit in the playoffs. I'm good.
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So what is 'less than sh!t' that describes what we have done? I'm not advocating for Harden, just wondering where the Blazers playoff record ranks on the excrement scale.
 
TBpup said:
So what is 'less than sh!t' that describes what we have done? I'm not advocating for Harden, just wondering where the Blazers playoff record ranks on the excrement scale.
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He plays terrible in the playoff every year. This is no secret.

Secondly, the subject a James Harden. Focus.

Seems like you're arguing for the sake of arguing.
 
Not sure there is a good comp for Simons among active PGs. An athletic, wiry, taller point guard that can also shoot? Good luck. Maybe Simons is what the 76ers thought they were getting with Fultz.
 
Scalma said:
Not sure there is a good comp for Simons among active PGs. An athletic, wiry, taller point guard that can also shoot? Good luck. Maybe Simons is what the 76ers thought they were getting with Fultz.
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He's Dame freshman season of college.
 
Gotta say, IF Simons is legitimately able to run the point for 15 mpg next season, that will address one of our major weaknesses from this year. Y'all getting me excited for next year when this year's playoffs haven't even started.
 
dviss1 said:
Why? Livingston can't shoot threes out of the pick and roll...
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Admittedly I didn't watch a ton of Clippers games, AND it was quite a while ago so I don't have clear memories. But the length, passing, smoothness, and ability to shoot - not necessarily 3s, but I have (potentially false) memories of Shaun shooting mid-range nicely. I'm not saying they're identical, just that I saw similarities to a player I didn't watch a whole lot of.
 
Mediocre Man said:
In 2 seconds
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Then I think you underrate Nurk and underestimate the negatives that come with overlapping roles of Harden & Dame. Harden + Dame - Nurk - CJ wins fewer games than what we have now. Nurk, assuming he heals well, has more room for improvement than AD or Harden. Also, it's not that I would reject an upgrade to a top 5 AD, it's that I think we can, in principal, get more bang for the buck upgrading our weakest link than upgrading our 2nd strongest link. If nothing else is available then yeah, whenever you can improve your team you do.
 
bobf said:
Then I think you underrate Nurk and underestimate the negatives that come with overlapping roles of Harden & Dame. Harden + Dame - Nurk - CJ wins fewer games than what we have now. Nurk, assuming he heals well, has more room for improvement than AD or Harden. Also, it's not that I would reject an upgrade to a top 5 AD, it's that I think we can, in principal, get more bang for the buck upgrading our weakest link than upgrading our 2nd strongest link. If nothing else is available then yeah, whenever you can improve your team you do.
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Where I think your argument goes off the rails is that it's not Dame/Harden vs. Dame/Nurk/CJ. Because someone is going to take Nurk's place. Look at the production we've gotten out of the 5 post Nurk. So what if you wind up with Dame/Harden/Enes? Or Dame/Harden/Boogie? You have two guards who can play either guard spot to open the floor. Harden is unquestionably an upgrade over CJ in every possible way except defense. They are the same TYPE of player, but Harden is one of the best of all time. Heck, I think you could argue that playing with Dame and Harden in the backcourt would make almost any 5-man better simply because they'd have so much space on which to operate and little attention from opposing teams.
 
PCmor7 said:
Where I think your argument goes off the rails is that it's not Dame/Harden vs. Dame/Nurk/CJ. Because someone is going to take Nurk's place. Look at the production we've gotten out of the 5 post Nurk. So what if you wind up with Dame/Harden/Enes? Or Dame/Harden/Boogie? You have two guards who can play either guard spot to open the floor. Harden is unquestionably an upgrade over CJ in every possible way except defense. They are the same TYPE of player, but Harden is one of the best of all time. Heck, I think you could argue that playing with Dame and Harden in the backcourt would make almost any 5-man better simply because they'd have so much space on which to operate and little attention from opposing teams.
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Yes, Harden is a huge upgrade over CJ. But Enes is a huge downgrade from Nurk, almost exclusively because of defense. You get diminishing returns when you have two elite creators. Adding Dame OR Harden to a team with no creator would more than offset losing an elite defender like Nurk. But adding a second creator (adding Harden over CJ to Dame) wouldn't.
 
PCmor7 said:
Heck, I think you could argue that playing with Dame and Harden in the backcourt would make almost any 5-man better simply because they'd have so much space on which to operate and little attention from opposing teams.
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On offense. On defense we'd need to have three rotation Centers because two of them would foul out every game.
Also, fuck Harden.
 
PCmor7 said:
Where I think your argument goes off the rails is that it's not Dame/Harden vs. Dame/Nurk/CJ. Because someone is going to take Nurk's place. Look at the production we've gotten out of the 5 post Nurk. So what if you wind up with Dame/Harden/Enes? Or Dame/Harden/Boogie? You have two guards who can play either guard spot to open the floor. Harden is unquestionably an upgrade over CJ in every possible way except defense. They are the same TYPE of player, but Harden is one of the best of all time. Heck, I think you could argue that playing with Dame and Harden in the backcourt would make almost any 5-man better simply because they'd have so much space on which to operate and little attention from opposing teams.
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Our production from the 5 since Nurk went down is mostly against crap teams. We'll see what happens now that the playoffs have arrived. I hope we still get it done, but we are going to miss Nurk.
 
bobf said:
Yes, Harden is a huge upgrade over CJ. But Enes is a huge downgrade from Nurk, almost exclusively because of defense. You get diminishing returns when you have two elite creators. Adding Dame OR Harden to a team with no creator would more than offset losing an elite defender like Nurk. But adding a second creator (adding Harden over CJ to Dame) wouldn't.
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Statistically, Enes and Nurk are almost a wash. Nurk is the better passer and defender. Nurk also gets into foul trouble and sometimes gets himself tossed from games, which means he can't help you offensively or defensively.

And both Dame and Harden are creators. It's almost like you are saying CJ is the creator on the floor right now, but he's not. If anything, a Dame/Harden backcourt is more creative.
 
tlongII said:
Our production from the 5 since Nurk went down is mostly against crap teams. We'll see what happens now that the playoffs have arrived. I hope we still get it done, but we are going to miss Nurk.
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Yeah. I know Nurk only played against the good teams.

And your post is off on a tangent, which is you would have a much harder time replacing James Harden with anybody than replacing Jusuf Nurkic.
 
PCmor7 said:
Yeah. I know Nurk only played against the good teams.

And your post is off on a tangent, which is you would have a much harder time replacing James Harden with anybody than replacing Jusuf Nurkic.
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I don't think you realize how good Nurk is. I think he was one of the top 3 centers in the league when he went down. There is no question in my mind that we would be worse if we made that trade.
 
tlongII said:
I don't think you realize how good Nurk is. I think he was one of the top 3 centers in the league when he went down. There is no question in my mind that we would be worse if we made that trade.
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That's interesting, because I love Nurk, but I think you overestimate him. I think I am just being realistic. I think you just love the guy and it's blinding your objectivity.

There are a greater number of guys who would contribute to a similar level to Nurk than there are to Harden. It's kind of mind-boggling to me that anyone wouldn't concede that point. And I am not even a Harden fan. I feel like I'm in Bizarro World.
 
tlongII said:
Our production from the 5 since Nurk went down is mostly against crap teams. We'll see what happens now that the playoffs have arrived. I hope we still get it done, but we are going to miss Nurk.
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Kanter +/- with Portland +1.2 per game.
Nurk +/- 2018 +5.9 per game.
 
bobf said:
Kanter +/- with Portland +1.2 per game.
Nurk +/- 2018 +5.9 per game.
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Look at their PER and win shares for the year. Consider that Kanter played most of his time with Portland in limited minutes until the last few when Nurk went out. Compare their stats as starters.
 
OK, so tell me which of these bigs is NOT on a par with Nurk ...

Embiid
KAT
Jokic
Drummond
Gobert
Vukevic
Adams
Whiteside
Boogie

Can you say any of them aren't comparable to Nurk? I think, before this year, people on this board even discussed Vukevic and Whiteside as possible trade targets at center, and there still are people who wish we could have drafted Drummond.

How about if we add power 4s, since we are in an age of positionless basketball? Which of these aren't in a discussion with being close to Nurk in ability and production?

AD
LMA
Giannis
Capella

Maybe even Ayton deserves mention, too.

Now, how many guards could you say are in the ballpark with Harden in ability and production? Realistically?
 
PCmor7 said:
Nurk also gets into foul trouble and sometimes gets himself tossed from games, which means he can't help you offensively or defensively
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Get back to me when you check Enes Kanter's ejections.

Nurk has been ejected from 1 game.

WTF are you talking about?
 
PCmor7 said:
Statistically, Enes and Nurk are almost a wash. Nurk is the better passer and defender. Nurk also gets into foul trouble and sometimes gets himself tossed from games, which means he can't help you offensively or defensively.

And both Dame and Harden are creators. It's almost like you are saying CJ is the creator on the floor right now, but he's not. If anything, a Dame/Harden backcourt is more creative.
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No, I'm not saying CJ is a creator for other players. I'm saying Dame & Harden are both creators and because of that, together they duplicate a function and have diminishing returns. There is only one ball. Together, of course they are better than either one by himself, but not nearly as much better as you'd expect on paper. In contrast, Dame + Nurk compliment each other.
 
KAT
Drummond
Vukevic
Adams

Are not on par with Nurk
 
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