So, If You're A Christian, You're Then Unfit To Become A Professional Counselor?

[ABM]

Should a Christian school pass a radical Muslim learning to be a preacher because his personal beliefs are that Gihad and extermination of all Christians is at order? Of course not.

Poor example.

First of all, we're talking about a state, tax-funded school. Should a Muslim be able to attend there, while also bringing his/her perspectives into view? Absolutely. However, if dude's talking about killing/exterminating people, I think they might have a bit different take on that.

 

[andalusian]

Poor example.

First of all, we're talking about a state, tax-funded school. Should a Muslim be able to attend there, while also bringing his/her perspectives into view? Absolutely. However, if dude's talking about killing/exterminating people, I think they might have a bit different take on that.

Oh, but the fighter pilot one is a good one. Interesting...

At the end of the day - these guys are there to help the burden of people in trouble - telling them they should convert does not seem to be the accepted practice for people that deal with counselling all the time. This lady is apparently unable to accept what people with a lot of experience in the field tell her - so she is unfit to pass.

And - the fact that it's a state, tax-funded school is not important. Are you telling me you do not think that state, tax-funded institutions should do the best they can according to the task they are presented with? I am sorry, I'm a Jewish practitioner, I will not fight on the Sabbath because it's against my beliefs? said the general in the army (a tax-funded institution).

Being tax-funded does not make a teaching institution into a platform for spreading religious beliefs. The tax money goes to educate people in specific fields. If these people do not show the ability to work in the field - I would very much like my tax-funded institutions not to give them a free pass wasting my tax money. Maybe you are more lax with your tax money - but requiring accountability from tax-funded institutions is a good thing in my book. Giving a free-pass for people because of their stated religious beliefs is not.

 

[barfo]

Poor example.

You are or were in the grocery business, is that right? So how about this. Would you hire a produce clerk who said he was unwilling to handle any fruit unless he could try to reshape the fruit into a vegetable?

barfo

 

[santeesioux]

我讨厌宗教讨论!

 

[PtldPlatypus]

You are or were in the grocery business, is that right? So how about this. Would you hire a produce clerk who said he was unwilling to handle any fruit unless he could try to reshape the fruit into a vegetable?

barfo

Would an attorney be prevented from taking the bar if he only wanted to practice environmental law? Would a med school expel a student who only wanted to treat children? Would the ASE refuse to certify a mechanic who indicated that he would only be working on imports?

 

[barfo]

Would an attorney be prevented from taking the bar if he only wanted to practice environmental law? Would a med school expel a student who only wanted to treat children? Would the ASE refuse to certify a mechanic who indicated that he would only be working on imports?

In each of those cases, you still have to learn the other stuff to be certified. You can't just skip the constitutional law class because you aren't interested. You can't skip learning about reproduction just because you plan to specialize in pediatrics. If the car they have in the shop at school is a Ford, you can't refuse to work on it and still expect to be certified.

Besides, your analogy doesn't work at all. She's trying to be a school counselor. Is she going to find a school where there are no gay kids? Really?

barfo

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

Would an attorney be prevented from taking the bar if he only wanted to practice environmental law? Would a med school expel a student who only wanted to treat children? Would the ASE refuse to certify a mechanic who indicated that he would only be working on imports?

In order to gain certification, she has to learn to treat homosexuals according to school policy. Once graduated, she can choose only to treat certain individuals.

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

Besides, your analogy doesn't work at all. She's trying to be a school counselor. Is she going to find a school where there are no gay kids? Really?

barfo

She could be a christian school counselor. No way she should be allowed to become a public school counselor.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

In each of those cases, you still have to learn the other stuff to be certified. You can't just skip the constitutional law class because you aren't interested. You can't skip learning about reproduction just because you plan to specialize in pediatrics. If the car they have in the shop at school is a Ford, you can't refuse to work on it and still expect to be certified.

I don't think anybody on either side would have a problem if the school simply wanted her to learn about accepted methods for working with homosexual patients. This (requiring participating in Augusta's gay pride parade, requiring "a two page reflection" each month on how her participation in pro-gay activities "has influenced her beliefs,") goes a bit farther, and I'm sure you can recognize that.

Besides, your analogy doesn't work at all. She's trying to be a school counselor. Is she going to find a school where there are no gay kids? Really?

barfo

I can't say that I caught that she had indicated her intended specialty. However, is the program from which she's potentially being expelled specifically for school counselors?

 

[barfo]

She could be a christian school counselor.

She could, but she shouldn't. There are gay Christian kids too.

barfo

 

[barfo]

I don't think anybody on either side would have a problem if the school simply wanted her to learn about accepted methods for working with homosexual patients. This goes a bit farther, and I'm sure you can recognize that.

Nope, don't recognize that at all. It would seem to me that she is refusing to learn (or accept) accepted methods for working with homosexual patients.

I can't say that I caught that she had indicated her intended specialty. However, is the program from which she's potentially being expelled specifically for school counselors?

Apparently they have two tracks, one for school counselors and one for some other kind, I forget. She's in the school counseling track.

barfo

 

[PtldPlatypus]

She could be a christian school counselor. No way she should be allowed to become a public school counselor.

In order to gain certification, she has to learn to treat homosexuals according to school policy. Once graduated, she can choose only to treat certain individuals.

Agreed on both points.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

She could, but she shouldn't. There are gay Christian kids too.

barfo

And the school would expect her counseling to be in line with the institution's statement of faith, which in most cases it would be.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Nope, don't recognize that at all. It would seem to me that she is refusing to learn (or accept) accepted methods for working with homosexual patients.

Well, there's a difference between learning and acceptance. I'm taught many things in school--I don't have to accept them all in order to pass. Neither should she. If she's unwilling to engage the material at all, then that's a different story altogether.

Again, this goes back to something I mentioned several pages ago--that we have never received the school's side on this, so we don't know what it is that the school says she did or didn't do--all we have are her statements, and our interpretation thereof.

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

She could, but she shouldn't. There are gay Christian kids too.

barfo

Agreed, but think a Christian school is going to require counselors to take the "homosexuality is a sin" stand.

 

[ABM]

You are or were in the grocery business, is that right? So how about this. Would you hire a produce clerk who said he was unwilling to handle any fruit unless he could try to reshape the fruit into a vegetable?

barfo

What an absurd example. And keep fruits out of this!

 

[Denny Crane]

In each of those cases, you still have to learn the other stuff to be certified. You can't just skip the constitutional law class because you aren't interested. You can't skip learning about reproduction just because you plan to specialize in pediatrics. If the car they have in the shop at school is a Ford, you can't refuse to work on it and still expect to be certified.

Besides, your analogy doesn't work at all. She's trying to be a school counselor. Is she going to find a school where there are no gay kids? Really?

barfo

Proof that even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while.

 

[ABM]

She could be a christian school counselor. No way she should be allowed to become a public school counselor.

So then, why could she not get her degree from ASU and then get a job as Christian school counselor? For that matter, why couldn't she get a job at a public school and keep her personal views to herself? I mean, what about judges, don't they have personal beliefs which may or may not align with the cases they're deciding on?

Makes absolutely NO sense to me that ASU has already determined what type of "professional" she will become and stand in the way of that from the get-go. Flat-out discrimination.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

What an absurd example. And keep fruits out of this!

But barfo likes talking about lefties.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

So then, why could she not get her degree from ASU and then get a job as Christian school counselor? For that matter, why couldn't she get a job at a public school and keep her personal views to herself? I mean, what about judges, don't they have personal beliefs which may or may not align with the cases they're deciding on?

Makes absolutely NO sense to me that ASU has already determined what type of "professional" she will become and stand in the way of that from the get-go. Flat-out discrimination.

BECAUSE


SHE'S


A


CHRISTIAN


AND


THOSE


TYPES


MUST


BE


ELIMINATED


AND/OR


LOSE


ALL


THEIR


CIVIL


RIGHTS!!



SO STATES THE LIBERALS.

 

[agoo]

However, Miss Keeton did state that she would not in a counseling session agree
with the propriety of homosexual relations, nor affirm the propriety of a client pursuing a life of,
and a self-definition based on, homosexual relations.

From the briefing submitted on behalf of Miss Keeton by the ADF. If you can't accept a non-disordered part of your client's life, you're not eligible to counsel them. If the faculty of ASU can indicate that Miss Keeton would seek to change a homosexual client's orientation (as implied above and with reported discussions advocating for conversion therapy referenced earlier in the briefing), they'll win as that behavior is not in line with the ACA Code of Ethics. Miss Keeton's case appears to hinge upon the idea that the ACA code does not apply to non-members and that the ASU student handbook and program expectations never explicitly refer to the ACA Code as a guide. However, the handbook, as quoted in the briefing, does have a statement about students needing to adhere to ethics as determined by the faculty.

Additionally, if the intro course she took is anything worth taking, the ACA Code has been covered and defined as the guiding document for all ethical concerns. Given that she's in a CACREP Certified Program (the highest accreditation available for counselor education programs), it was covered and set as the guiding document for ethical counseling.

 

[ABM]

From the briefing submitted on behalf of Miss Keeton by the ADF. If you can't accept a non-disordered part of your client's life, you're not eligible to counsel them. If the faculty of ASU can indicate that Miss Keeton would seek to change a homosexual client's orientation (as implied above and with reported discussions advocating for conversion therapy referenced earlier in the briefing), they'll win as that behavior is not in line with the ACA Code of Ethics. Miss Keeton's case appears to hinge upon the idea that the ACA code does not apply to non-members and that the ASU student handbook and program expectations never explicitly refer to the ACA Code as a guide. However, the handbook, as quoted in the briefing, does have a statement about students needing to adhere to ethics as determined by the faculty.

Additionally, if the intro course she took is anything worth taking, the ACA Code has been covered and defined as the guiding document for all ethical concerns. Given that she's in a CACREP Certified Program (the highest accreditation available for counselor education programs), it was covered and set as the guiding document for ethical counseling.

OK, you're the resident "pro" here.

Why, then, does this listing of therapists indicate if they have gay/lesbian expertise, or not?

http://therapists.psychologytoday.com/rms/state/OR/Portland.html

 

[Minstrel]

So then, why could she not get her degree from ASU and then get a job as Christian school counselor?

Because the degree seems to be linked with a certain accreditation from the ACA, and she isn't meeting the necessary standards that the ACA requires.

She could try her hand at getting a job with a private school without that accreditation, if there are schools that agree with her that she shouldn't have to meet the ACA standards.

 

[ABM]

Because the degree seems to be linked with a certain accreditation from the ACA, and she isn't meeting the necessary standards that the ACA requires.

No, just according to certain select bunch within the school, it seems(?).

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

However, the handbook, as quoted in the briefing, does have a statement about students needing to adhere to ethics as determined by the faculty.

And therein lies the problem that we have been discussing and is being continually swept under the carpet. Can the faculty single out members of a religious group and force them to either undergo "reprogramming" specifically to force them to renounce their faith or expel them? Does this person's civil rights extend that far?

 

[ABM]

Because the degree seems to be linked with a certain accreditation from the ACA, and she isn't meeting the necessary standards that the ACA requires.

She could try her hand at getting a job with a private school without that accreditation, if there are schools that agree with her that she shouldn't have to meet the ACA standards.

There are a number of dissenting viewpoints in here. I'd be very curious to see just one "real school" example in that Ms. Keeton's personal viewpoints might prevent her from providing adequate counseling to any given student.

In a previous post, I had alluded to ASA's guidelines whereas, essentially, counselors are not in position to "condone" any certain behaviors......including homosexuality.

 

[hasoos]

Just the opposite. She has been singled out for discrimination due to her religion. That was made all too clear. It's called bigotry and hypocrisy.

So do member of the Klu Klux Klan. But nobody second guesses that, do they?

 

[agoo]

OK, you're the resident "pro" here.

Why, then, does this listing of therapists indicate if they have gay/lesbian expertise, or not?

http://therapists.psychologytoday.com/rms/state/OR/Portland.html

Same reason why I'd go here if I broke my foot in Portland and not here. You do a lot of work in a certain area and you develop a specialty to it. There are specific programs for marriage counseling, working with athletes, working with particular disorders, etc. People in the LGBT community have specific issues relating to their orientation that changes their needs in a counseling relationship and some people just develop skills through experiences and trainings in working with those issues. It doesn't mean that the other counselors who don't get listed under that search heading are incapable of working with members of the LGBT community or that they're allowed to paint their orientation/gender identity as disordered.

And therein lies the problem that we have been discussing and is being continually swept under the carpet. Can the faculty single out members of a religious group and force them to either undergo "reprogramming" specifically to force them to renounce their faith or expel them? Does this person's civil rights extend that far?

You're implying that Ms. Keeton is the only Christian who has made an attempt to graduate from this program ever. As I said in my first post in this thread, there are a number of students that I went through my program with who probably have similar objections to homosexuality, but would never allow it to impact their work or their clients. We even had a professor who made it very clear that she was a strong Christian in class and she denounced homophobia and taught us about working with the LGBT population. Its not Christianity that's under fire here. Its homophobia.

Because the degree seems to be linked with a certain accreditation from the ACA, and she isn't meeting the necessary standards that the ACA requires.

She could try her hand at getting a job with a private school without that accreditation, if there are schools that agree with her that she shouldn't have to meet the ACA standards.

ACA, as far as I know, does not accredit programs. They are the relevant professional organization for counselors and counseling students and provide the definitive Code of Ethics for the field. CACREP (Council for Accreditation of Counseling Related Educational Programs) is the definitive accrediting body for the field and references education and adherence to the ACA Code in their most recent standards for Counseling programs.

 

[MARIS61]

This is like a member of The Flat World Society wanting to be accredited as a science teacher.

Or a KKK member wanting to run the Peace Corps or an INS office.

Or Kim Jong ll wanting to lead the UN.

Or Chris Dudley running for Governor of the state he cheated out of taxes.

Or Kobe Bryant wanting to run a rape-crisis hotline.

She's simply not mentally or emotionally equipped for the task.

She should really be setting her sights much, much lower.

She could maybe be a preacher or tow truck driver.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

So do member of the Klu Klux Klan. But nobody second guesses that, do they?

If they don't, they should.