So is this really the best chance to win a series?

[kjironman1]

See, a joke wouldn't land so close to what people actually call him.

He's good for spacing and the occasional hot game or two, but his defensive inadequacies and lack of BBIQ make it hard to give him sustainable minutes.

I think the word that fits is "Instinct". He is still getting a feel for the game at that position. It's taking a long time but marked improvement every year is a mark of hard work and willingness.

 

[kjironman1]

.....

Maybe a better word is instincts. He has none. Instincts can be in the BBIQ field.

We are saying the same thing here. I agree. But i see real improvement in many areas like picks and passing and he is starting to show some post moves. They need to work on those more this year.

 

[Strenuus]

I think the word that fits is "Instinct". He is still getting a feel for the game at that position. It's taking a long time but marked improvement every year is a mark of hard work and willingness.

4 years to get instincts? Really? 4 years, and he still has none? He is still timid, too. He's afraid to finish around the rim for whatever reason. He's 7-1 and feels like he can only play from the free throw line out on offense. He needs to be a banger.

 

[Strenuus]

We are saying the same thing here. I agree. But i see real improvement in many areas like picks and passing and he is starting to show some post moves. They need to work on those more this year.

I'll have to go back and watch video... because I have not seen many, if any, post moves... if by post move you mean driving down the lane and doing a floater, then Dame has a post game too. I honestly don't recall many "post" moves from Meyers.

 

[kjironman1]

4 years to get instincts? Really? 4 years, and he still has none? He is still timid, too. He's afraid to finish around the rim for whatever reason. He's 7-1 and feels like he can only play from the free throw line out on offense. He needs to be a banger.

It's not really 4 years when you look at it but sure. It takes bigs 4 years at this level yes.

 

[Strenuus]

It's not really 4 years when you look at it but sure. It takes bigs 4 years at this level yes.

How do I look at it, then? He's been here since 2012, has he not? lol.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

His other problem is committing bad fouls and bad turnovers at the most inopportune times.

 

[kjironman1]

I'll have to go back and watch video... because I have not seen many, if any, post moves... if by post move you mean driving down the lane and doing a floater, then Dame has a post game too. I honestly don't recall many "post" moves from Meyers.

While you are at it watch what Pat Con did to Mcdermot. Make sure you watch Meyers passing the ball. That takes talent or "Instincts" if you will. Also watch what Verejao had to do with Meyers in the game. Look at the inbound pass that didn't count for lack of time.

 

[kjironman1]

His other problem is committing bad fouls and bad turnovers at the most inopportune times.

What foul happens at appropriate times? Please tell me.

 

[kjironman1]

How do I look at it, then? He's been here since 2012, has he not? lol.

2 years working as a Power Forward maybe? The point is everyone knew he was 4 years in the making when this started. He is now the best all around shooter on the team and is making a huge impact on games. That is growth. Maybe not good enough for you. That is fine but you can't deny the numbers this year and the last 20 games he has played for a team that is exceeding expectations.

 

[Elton]

Just hold onto that thought. I can respect that but you too will become a believer in "The Legend" that is Meyers Leonard....

I think he's much more like this 'Legend':

 

[kjironman1]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leoname01.html
Here is a basketball reference site for him. Look at his on court +- for each year.
3 years ago when he was trying to play center he was - 11.6
Last year after moving to PF he went to + 1.2
This year he has progressed to +2.2
That is what i mean by not really 4 years.

 

[Strenuus]

2 years working as a Power Forward maybe? The point is everyone knew he was 4 years in the making when this started. He is now the best all around shooter on the team and is making a huge impact on games. That is growth. Maybe not good enough for you. That is fine but you can't deny the numbers this year and the last 20 games he has played for a team that is exceeding expectations.

That one is HIGHLY debatable. Can you elaborate?

Numbers are decent, but his mental mistakes are not.

If this is his ceiling, then he's no better than an Okur or a Hawes. I hope he can prove me wrong, but I still have my doubts.

 

[Elton]

I think he's much more like this 'Legend':

...or this Legend:

 

[Strenuus]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leoname01.html
Here is a basketball reference site for him. Look at his on court +- for each year.
3 years ago when he was trying to play center he was - 11.6
Last year after moving to PF he went to + 1.2
This year he has progressed to +2.2
That is what i mean by not really 4 years.

As has been pointed out, +/- is a team number more than an individual number... the only way to discern if it's individual is looking at box scores over a period of time to see where the individual lies within the people on the court.

Trust me, I tried using +/- on other players, but that's always the retort.. unfortunately, it's true.

I just don't know if this is his ceiling.... or if he could be a Center, or just a stretch 4 with a slow release and a timid shot.

 

[Rhal]

I'm not sure why but when Meyers is put on a strong center he seems to play his ass off defensively and is more engaged offensively, not passing up open 3's, but if its a more athletic center he has problems again. If we played Boogie every night Meyers would be a decent center.

 

[kjironman1]

As has been pointed out, +/- is a team number more than an individual number... the only way to discern if it's individual is looking at box scores over a period of time to see where the individual lies within the people on the court.

Trust me, I tried using +/- on other players, but that's always the retort.. unfortunately, it's true.

I just don't know if this is his ceiling.... or if he could be a Center, or just a stretch 4 with a slow release and a timid shot.

Well. That's pretty much the point of the thread.

 

[Blazers Roy]

I think the only team who is starting 2 centers today is Phoenix and they are trying to tank.

 

[Blazers Roy]

The Aminu experiment is just about over. Crabbe needs to find a shot again.

When did Aminu start regularly at the PF spot?

"Don't tell that it's over, it only just begun!"

 

[42N8Bounce]

I acknowledge that Vonleh is young, and shows physical gifts that indicate he should be a power forward that makes it in this league. But to make it, he has to show progress. Here's his numbers for his two years in the league:

Noah Vonleh:
2015 - PER: 13.2, MP: 10.4, Pt/36: 11.5, Rb/36: 12.0, Bl/36: 1.3, PF/36: 2.8, TS%: 47.5%
2016 - PER: 8.3, MP: 15.9, Pt/36: 8.4, Rb/36: 9.3, Bl/36: 0.6, PF/36: 4.7, TS%: 45.5%

I think the Blazers have given him ample time to progress. His numbers don't look anything like progress. I'd call that regression.

Compared to Leonard's last two years -
Meyers Leonard:
2015 - PER: 14.8, MP: 15.4, Pt/36: 13.9, Rb/36: 10.6, Bl/36: 0.6, PF/36: 4.8, TS%: 63.1%
2016 - PER: 11.4, MP: 21.9, Pt/36: 13.8, Rb/36: 8.4, Bl/36: 0.4, PF/36: 4.9, TS%: 56.3%

It looks to me like Meyers Leonard has plateaued. He is what he is. A solid rotational player that has good usage in certain types of match ups.

I think Leonard has earned the opportunity to get more minutes. Vonleh has not demonstrated to me that he is making enough progress to warrant starting, let alone taking up minutes of a player that is performing at a higher level than he is (Leonard).

If this was a throw away year, maybe I could see continuing to start Vonleh. But since the Blazers are in the thick of the playoff race, I think we need to start and play our best players. In my opinion, Leonard is our best option at PF/C to complement the skills of our other starting big, Plumlee.

 

[Strenuus]

I acknowledge that Vonleh is young, and shows physical gifts that indicate he should be a power forward that makes it in this league. But to make it, he has to show progress. Here's his number for his two years in the league:

Noah Vonleh:
2015 - PER: 13.2, MP: 10.4, Pt/36: 11.5, Rb/36: 12.0, Bl/36: 1.3, PF/36: 2.8, TS%: 47.5%
2016 - PER: 8.3, MP: 15.9, Pt/36: 8.4, Rb/36: 9.3, Bl/36: 0.6, PF/36: 4.7, TS%: 45.5%

I think the Blazers have given him ample time to progress. His numbers don't look anything like progress. I'd call that regression.

Compared to Leonard's last two years -
Meyers Leonard:
2015 - PER: 14.8, MP: 15.4, Pt/36: 13.9, Rb/36: 10.6, Bl/36: 0.6, PF/36: 4.8, TS%: 63.1%
2016 - PER: 11.4, MP: 21.9, Pt/36: 13.8, Rb/36: 8.4, Bl/36: 0.4, PF/36: 4.9, TS%: 56.3%

It looks to me like Meyers Leonard has plateaued. He is what he is. A solid rotational player that has good usage in certain types of match ups.

I think Leonard has earned the opportunity to get more minutes. Vonleh has not demonstrated to me that he is making enough progress to warrant starting, let alone taking up minutes of a player that is performing at a higher level than he is (Leonard).

If this was a throw away year, maybe I could see continuing to start Vonleh. But since the Blazers are in the thick of the playoff race, I think we need to start and play our best players. In my opinion, Leonard is our best option at PF/C to complement the skills of our other starting big, Plumlee.

I think, and maybe I missed it in your words (I did read it all), why are we comparing Vonleh's first two years (the first of which, he hardly played), and Leonards LAST two years? Wouldn't a better comparison be the first two years of both?

 

[42N8Bounce]

I think, and maybe I missed it in your words (I did read it all), why are we comparing Vonleh's first two years (the first of which, he hardly played), and Leonards LAST two years? Wouldn't a better comparison be the first two years of both?

I think the key is to look at the here and now. At this point in the season, and the situation we are currently in (playoff hunt), we need to start focusing on who can give us the biggest bang for the buck. I think Leonard is that guy. If Vonleh showed huge progress year-over-year, and indicated that he's going to turn the corner and help us push into the playoffs, then sure. But I don't see that from him this year.

 

[B-Roy]

I think, and maybe I missed it in your words (I did read it all), why are we comparing Vonleh's first two years (the first of which, he hardly played), and Leonards LAST two years? Wouldn't a better comparison be the first two years of both?

Because we're talking about their production now, since you know, we are trying to win.

 

[Strenuus]

I think the key is to look at the here and now. At this point in the season, and the situation we are currently in (playoff hunt), we need to start focusing on who can give us the biggest bang for the buck. I think Leonard is that guy. If Vonleh showed huge progress year-over-year, and indicated that he's going to turn the corner and help us push into the playoffs, then sure. But I don't see that from him this year.

Oh, that makes sense. I didn't glean that off of the original post. Yeah, Vonleh is not ready yet. The lesser of two evils is definitely Leonard.

 

[Strenuus]

Because we're talking about their production now, since you know, we are trying to win.

Was already answered. Thanks, though.

 

[blue9]

Vonleh has only shown anything on the defensive end. He's quite good (considering age, experience) at covering his man, and fairly good at help defense. But that is the full extent of his game at this point.

Meyers has shown flashes on both ends of the court. Obviously he's best known for the offensive end - where the results are still mixed. But regardless, he's still able to impact the game on offense whereas Vonleh has never made an offensive impact. But Meyers has also shown flashes on the defensive end - again, with varied degrees of success/failure. But he does have some ability to play both ends of the floor...whereas Vonleh doesn't.

It's no contest at this point - Meyers is a superior player. Vonleh looks like a child in a man's game, except for the rare occasion when his man gets the ball in the post.

 

[Strenuus]

Vonleh has only shown anything on the defensive end. He's quite good (considering age, experience) at covering his man, and fairly good at help defense. But that is the full extent of his game at this point.

Meyers has shown flashes on both ends of the court. Obviously he's best known for the offensive end - where the results are still mixed. But regardless, he's still able to impact the game on offense whereas Vonleh has never made an offensive impact. But Meyers has also shown flashes on the defensive end - again, with varied degrees of success/failure. But he does have some ability to play both ends of the floor...whereas Vonleh doesn't.

It's no contest at this point - Meyers is a superior player. Vonleh looks like a child in a man's game, except for the rare occasion when his man gets the ball in the post.

That might be the first time someone has ever said "Meyers is a superior player"

But then it is Vonleh, whose raw as hell, so it's not much of an endorsement.

 

[Chris Craig]

Send Vonleh to Santa cruz

 

[blue9]

That might be the first time someone has ever said "Meyers is a superior player"

But then it is Vonleh, whose raw as hell, so it's not much of an endorsement.

I don't know that I buy that Vonleh is "raw" anymore. Raw players generally tend to make a few plays - and even full games - from time to time that show you what they might become. Granted I haven't watched every single game this season, but I've never seen Vonleh do something that makes me get excited that we have a diamond in the rough. A lesser version of David West? Perhaps - if he improves massively.

 

[Strenuus]

I don't know that I buy that Vonleh is "raw" anymore. Raw players generally tend to make a few plays - and even full games - from time to time that show you what they might become. Granted I haven't watched every single game this season, but I've never seen Vonleh do something that makes me get excited that we have a diamond in the rough. A lesser version of David West? Perhaps - if he improves massively.

True, it could be my hopefulness coming out, but I say if I don't see massive improvement by this next year it'll be a lost cause.

I guess I just get frustrated at someone like Tunchi who is always so quick to say someone sucks, without giving them a chance.

I waited almost 4 years before I was on Meyers. People just need some time.