So, what would they say to Mary?

[BrianFromWA]

Every word of the Bible is true. We "know" this because God says so. How do we know God exists? Because the Bible says so and, as established previously, every word of is true.

I continue to wonder: How do you know when to have belief without evidence? If I tell you that I am literally God and everything I say is true...you might ask for evidence that this is true. I might then respond that you must have faith...if I proved it, then it would require no faith. And faith is paramount.

How do you know not to have faith in me but to have faith in Christianity? We both have no literal evidence and demand faith.

A couple authors have answered your questions much better than I could. I recommend Mere Christianity by CS Lewis and Case for Christ/Case for Faith by Lee Strobel.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

A couple authors have answered your questions much better than I could. I recommend Mere Christianity by CS Lewis and Case for Christ/Case for Faith by Lee Strobel.

Don't forget Josh McDowell's Evidence that Demands a Verdict.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I haven't read that, so I didn't want to recommend. But I've also heard it's good.

 

[crandc]

So, if every word of the bible is true...

Does the Sun revolve around the earth?

Are bats birds?

 

[crandc]

In this case, lives. I'd say that that's an odd situation, one that occurred largely because people looked out for themselves in the 20's and 30's and didn't stand up and do the right thing in holding the BrownShirts accountable for bullying voters, assassinating political leaders, etc. The German populace voted for Hitler, multiple times. And then they stood by as his government granted him broad-sweeping powers over life and death. And no one protested that. No one peaceably demonstrated. No one wrote newspaper articles condemning the Nazi-fication of Germany. And largely because of the cowardice and narcissism of the German populace, millions of people died. I'm glad that your cousin was spared. I'm sorry that her family was not. And I hope you can take this example and extrapolate a bit into why there are "Tea Partiers", and people like me and others on the board who protest what we don't agree with in gov't.

I would say you are showing an extreme lack of knowledge about 20th century German history.

Hitler never got a majority of votes. He demanded one ministry, Interior, which put him in charge of the police. The first act was to outlaw the Socialist and Communist parties, close down all dissident newspapers that had written the editorials, outlaw trade unions that had struck, outlaw feminist and gay organizations, censor the arts. Have you heard about the Hamburg dock workers, who threw munitions destined for the Spanish fascists, into the ocean? Have you heard about White Rose? About the underground railroad that smuggled dissenters, Jews and leftists out of the country? And to say the "Tea Party" is some sort of antidote is beyond absurd. To fight something, for one thing, you need some knowledge. The fact that their candidate did not get elected president is not the same as Nazism. The "tea party" is another incarnation of the pseudo-populist nativist far right movement that has existed in this country for 150 years, off and on, has no program, no historical knowledge, spurred into hysteria by a black president of "their" (white) America and battened on by those making millions of dollars selling bunkum. They have nothing in common with those who risked their lives for others.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I would say you are showing an extreme lack of knowledge about 20th century German history.

Perhaps. Mine is only from books I've read on the subject, not from first-hand accounts. Yet I'd submit that I've read a lot more of what went into the Rise of the Nazi Party than most. I don't think I'm showing a lack, though

Hitler never got a majority of votes.

You are correct, and I should have written it better. He was always second in the Presidency to Hindenburg, who was far into his dotage and ruling throught the Reichstag. However, the Nazi party received the 2nd-most votes (and therefore, Reichstag seats) in the 1930 election and the most votes of any party in both the 1932 elections and 1933, allowing him to control the Reichstag.

He demanded one ministry, Interior, which put him in charge of the police.

I'm not sure this timeline is right...he was not a part of the executive government (Hindenburg was President, Papen was Chancellor) until Hitler was appointed Chancellor. He appointed Frick Interior Minister after he was given Chancellorship.

The first act was to outlaw the Socialist and Communist parties, close down all dissident newspapers that had written the editorials, outlaw trade unions that had struck, outlaw feminist and gay organizations, censor the arts.

Since he'd been voted a majority of the Reichstag (between the Nazis and the KPD) he was able to pass the "Enabling Act", which allowed him many of the powers he used to do the things you jsut brought up.

Have you heard about the Hamburg dock workers, who threw munitions destined for the Spanish fascists, into the ocean? Have you heard about White Rose? About the underground railroad that smuggled dissenters, Jews and leftists out of the country?

I didn't know of the White Rose. I had to look them up on wikipedia. I'm not sure that their example of standing up to Hitler in 1943 is what I was talking about when you brought up the Jewish examples.

And to say the "Tea Party" is some sort of antidote is beyond absurd.

So you say, but you don't seem to care about seeing anything other than what Olbermann and his ilk have to say.

To fight something, for one thing, you need some knowledge. The fact that their candidate did not get elected president is not the same as Nazism. The "tea party" is another incarnation of the pseudo-populist nativist far right movement that has existed in this country for 150 years, off and on, has no program, no historical knowledge, spurred into hysteria by a black president of "their" (white) America and battened on by those making millions of dollars selling bunkum. They have nothing in common with those who risked their lives for others.

I'd say you have a fundamentally odd view of people in the Tea Party, if you think that a) they've had a presidential candidate (since the term was coined in April 2009), and if you think that people have no historical knowledge (I'd submit you've never seen a Glenn Beck program, or else you'd disagree with yourself, since he basically teaches history on his show) and couldn't care less if the person in office who's adding trillions to the deficit and lying about campaign promises based not on policies but on "hope and change" was black, red, white, woman, gay or otherwise. The first Tea Parties were in opposition to TARP, which was signed by Bush. I know that doesn't agree with the liberal media view of them as modern-day KKK members, but it's true nonetheless.

 

[BrianFromWA]

How'd we get to Hitler, btw? Was this your reply to my post about "I think the degradation of great societies historically has come from the move from "service" to "serve me", and that's one thing I personally fight against"?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

So, if every word of the bible is true...

Does the Sun revolve around the earth?

The Bible never says that it does. People have misinterpreted verses relating to human perception of celestial movement (sun moving across the sky, sun standing still for 24 hours) as Biblical astronomical doctrine.

Are bats birds?

At the time, anything with wings was "scientifically" classified as a bird. Is it the Bible's fault that modern taxonomy has changed the classifications from what they were at the time of the writing? And actually, the word used literally means "owner of a wing" which while imprecise, is not at all inaccurate.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Even the military is getting out of the business of policing what consenting adults do in bed. It's not the 1800's anymore.

barfo

I certainly won't apologize for having morals and ethics.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Every word of the Bible is true. We "know" this because God says so. How do we know God exists? Because the Bible says so and, as established previously, every word of is true.

I continue to wonder: How do you know when to have belief without evidence? If I tell you that I am literally God and everything I say is true...you might ask for evidence that this is true. I might then respond that you must have faith...if I proved it, then it would require no faith. And faith is paramount.

How do you know not to have faith in me but to have faith in Christianity? We both have no literal evidence and demand faith.

Well, it is true that "faith" plays a part in the Christian religion. However, thus far the Bible has yet to be proven wrong, and the fact that thus far it's hundreds of prophecies are 100% spot on is a good indicator. The odds of that are nearly, if not, uncalcuable by humans or machines.

 

[barfo]

I certainly won't apologize for having morals and ethics.

I had a turkey sandwich for lunch.
(as long as we are listing irrelevant information).

barfo

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Even the military is getting out of the business of policing what consenting adults do in bed. It's not the 1800's anymore.

I certainly won't apologize for having morals and ethics.

Further, different types of institutions have different rules. I've never come across a person who was jailed for walking off the job, but in the military, desertion can be a capital offense. Just the way it is.

 

[barfo]

Further, different types of institutions have different rules. I've never come across a person who was jailed for walking off the job, but in the military, desertion can be a capital offense. Just the way it is.

Yes. My point was not that the military is exactly like every other institution and therefore if the military makes a decision it applies simultaneously to the rest of the country.
My point was that the military tends to be (to put it gently) slower to adapt to social change, and that if you are behind the military on something, you are pretty far behind.

barfo

 

[crandc]

I had a turkey sandwich for lunch.
(as long as we are listing irrelevant information).

barfo

I had barbecued keilbasa, I'm sorry to say. Not kosher. Not vegetarian. Very immoral of me.

 

[crandc]

I guess I have no right to even be here. If Brian is correct, if his views become the law, I will be put to death. Because every word of the bible is correct. According to Brian. And only his interpretation counts.

 

[barfo]

I had barbecued keilbasa, I'm sorry to say. Not kosher. Not vegetarian. Very immoral of me.

Yes, very. My moral and ethical values say you should have had some wedding cake, so I'm afraid I'm going to have to ban you. Having keilbasa before wedding cake is an outrage.

barfo

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Yes. My point was not that the military is exactly like every other institution and therefore if the military makes a decision it applies simultaneously to the rest of the country.
My point was that the military tends to be (to put it gently) slower to adapt to social change, and that if you are behind the military on something, you are pretty far behind.

barfo

And my point is that just because religious institutions have chosen not to adopt the same regulatory changes that other institutions--including the military--have, it doesn't mean they're "behind" them.

Oh, and BTW, despite their intended retraction of DADT, the military still has some pretty strict no fraternization policies. They still very much care what happens in the bedroom.

 

[crandc]

Yes, very. My moral and ethical values say you should have had some wedding cake, so I'm afraid I'm going to have to ban you. Having keilbasa before wedding cake is an outrage.

barfo

Do your moral and ethical values allow me to marry?

 

[BrianFromWA]

I guess I have no right to even be here. If Brian is correct, if his views become the law, I will be put to death. Because every word of the bible is correct. According to Brian. And only his interpretation counts.

Perhaps you should read it before casting Truths like breadcrumbs.

 

[BrianFromWA]

And, I don't mean to sound crude at this, so please excuse me...but who exactly are you to interpret my faith for me? I told you what I believe and my worldviews. I've politely responded to the attacks about my education and philosophies, and attempted to refute much of the unfounded opinion with some semblance of truth and reason. And it devolves into anecdotes about cousins and hyperbole over cherry-picked pseudo-biblical talking points? Where does that come from?

 

[chris_in_pdx]

To hold people accountable on the job for their actions in the bedroom is neither wrong or pharisitical.

Wow. Just...... wow.

 

[crandc]

Brian, should BP be held accountable? Criminally prosecuted?

I read the King James bible cover to cover. I don't think it's the revealed word of any god, but I did read it. Try another attack. I'd be willing to bet you did not read Les Miserables (or for that matter Origin of Species). And the King James bible does say in so many words that gays and lesbians should be killed. You said the bible is every word true. So I infer you think that is true. Your words, not mine.

Funny, how religion always seems to be the excuse for lack of compassion.

What do you think of this woman?

She committed a felony theft. She got away with it so she continued to steal valuable property, over and over. She smuggled the stolen goods across the border illegally. Although there was a price on her head, she was never caught. She died in her bed, an old woman. Property owners said she cost them a small fortune in lost goods, as well as disrupting their businesses. She was so loathed by the leaders of her home state that even the song she was known to sing as banned.

You're thinking now there must be a catch and of course there is. The woman was Harriet Tubman, aka Miss Moses. The valuable property she stole from legal owners was first herself, then other slaves, whom she smuggled into Canada. My sister was named for her; I guess our parents thought this "thief" and "criminal" was a woman of honor, courage, and integrity. Rules or lives, Brian?

Her song. Banned throughout the South.

When Israel was in Egypt land - Let my people go!
Work so hard they could not stand - let my people go!
Go down, Moses, way down in Egypt land
Tell old pharaoh, let my people go!

 

[Denny Crane]

I think this woman is going to have a hard case to make in the courts. Separation of church and state.

She's a christian woman, but not clergy. We sent our daughter to a catholic school for several reasons, none of which us being catholic. The key thing I know about such schools is that they educate children for a lot less money than public schools and the kids graduate and go to college for the most part (our reasons, exactly). There were a couple of classes a semester that were religious, but we felt it was worth it for the opportunities provided for our daughter. I've been in a catholic church twice in my life, both for friends' weddings. My wife is not religious nor was she or her family catholic.

The most relevant thing about this experience for this thread is that the schools are taught by laypeople these days, not nuns who slap the kids with rulers like in the old days.

I don't see that the woman is entitled to this job. The church has every right to establish draconian moral and ethical standards for its teachers. Education is and should always be about the results - those results being what's good for the children. The people who run these private schools have every right to assert rules they feel are best toward that end. I can see their view that the woman sets some sort of bad example, and that case is going to be hard to dispute in a court room.

That said, in other situations, the woman has an outstanding case, and the school's/church's handling of the situation was obnoxious, rude, and downright disgraceful.

You asked barfo about gay marriage, so I'll chime in on that. I fully support it, but I don't support forcing the church to recognize it - it's their loss, IMO.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Brian, should BP be held accountable? Criminally prosecuted?

What have they done so far that would warrant criminal prosection? (that's not snarky...I don't know what charges are being drawn up)

I read the King James bible cover to cover.

And yet you continue with the whole "I should be dead because of Brian's interpretation" monologue? That doesn't show understanding.

I don't think it's the revealed word of any god, but I did read it. Try another attack.

Fine. Your eyes skimmed the pages. But the statements you've been posting have been so far from what the Bible says that you wouldn't pass the test in World Lit.

I'd be willing to bet you did not read Les Miserables (or for that matter Origin of Species).

Oh-for-two on that one. You think that I'm some illiterate putz because I have faith? OoS was required reading for the biochemistry classes I took in college. I took an entire class on French Lit at the Naval Academy (where we read --and wrote essays and tests to show understanding--such books as Les Mis, Madame Bovary, the Plague etc. I read Monte Cristo in French. I noticed that you didn't attempt to answer any of the points I refuted for you about Nazi Germany. Perhaps it's because you can't fathom that someone like me can read, understand AND remember the stuff I read in "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" and Toland's "Hitler". But I'm sorry to say that the normal "Christian people are illiterate, so I can dazzle them with my elitist education and discount their incoherent ramblings" thing doesn't work with me... you'll have to find another attack. Or, better for the discussion, just answer the points I'm making.

And the King James bible does say in so many words that gays and lesbians should be killed.

Correct.

You said the bible is every word true.

Yes I did.

So I infer you think that is true. Your words, not mine.

You are correct in that inference. It also says liars, those who disobey parents, adulterers, thieves, divorcees, those who get angry, those who don't work, etc. deserve death and hell and eternal separation from God. Your homosexuality doesn't make you special. Please disabuse yourself of the misguided fallacy that you're part of some extraordinary group set apart by God for hateful destruction. The wages of sin (ANY SIN) is death...but the very next phrase is "but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus". That's what the Bible says, even the King James. One's life (and the sin that comes with it) and works are not enough to get into Heaven. Faith in Jesus must be there. In my view of Christianity (and the one you read in the King James and every other Bible), one isn't eternally separated from God because they're gay. They're eternally separated from God because they don't want to believe that Jesus's sacrifice is the only way to not be.
BTW: is the King James one special to you somehow? You like reading things in 16th-century English? Did you read Les Mis in the literary French? Unabridged?

Funny, how religion always seems to be the excuse for lack of compassion.

What's funny is that religion is the root of compassion. Without it, you can't have a reference. 2Cor1:3 (also in the King James) states that God is the "Father of Compassion". The parable of the Good Samaritan is one of the leading examples of "compassion".

What do you think of this woman?

She committed a felony theft. She got away with it so she continued to steal valuable property, over and over. She smuggled the stolen goods across the border illegally. Although there was a price on her head, she was never caught. She died in her bed, an old woman. Property owners said she cost them a small fortune in lost goods, as well as disrupting their businesses. She was so loathed by the leaders of her home state that even the song she was known to sing as banned.

You're thinking now there must be a catch and of course there is. The woman was Harriet Tubman, aka Miss Moses. The valuable property she stole from legal owners was first herself, then other slaves, whom she smuggled into Canada. My sister was named for her; I guess our parents thought this "thief" and "criminal" was a woman of honor, courage, and integrity. Rules or lives, Brian?

Rules. Can you tell me where in history slavery first was abolished, who it was abolished by and how he did it? Harriet Tubman's acts were courageous. She would've been (justifiably to those at the time) killed if caught. She stole and moved seventy slaves from the South to the North, and then into Canada. Were their lives in danger? They would've been freed within 10 years. Those who did it through LAW (like Lincoln and Wilberforce) emancipated millions. But if Harriet felt justified stealing to do so, then it must be right...right? But when Harriet wanted women to have the right to vote (noble goal, right?) did she stuff ballot boxes illegally? Did she dress women up as men and illegally vote? No. She waited patiently alongside Susan B Anthony and spend 30 years legally protesting and trying to get the law changed. And it was.
So far you've attempted to use 1930's Jews and Harriet Tubman to justify taking the law into your own hands. Why aren't you bringing up Ghandi? Or Rosa Parks? Or Martin Luther King, Jr.? Or Pope John Paul II? You know, people who changed millions of lives for the better by doing the right thing and protesting the right way. Not taking the law into their own hands to do something they personally thought was right.

 

[boatsandstars]

Perhaps instead of fighting like a lunatic in the military, you should wait until someone resolved the situation legally through and a bunch of peaceful protest?

 

[crandc]

Why aren't you bringing up Ghandi? Or Rosa Parks? Or Martin Luther King, Jr.? Or Pope John Paul II? You know, people who changed millions of lives for the better by doing the right thing and protesting the right way. Not taking the law into their own hands to do something they personally thought was right.

Ghandi, Parks, and King all broke existing laws. Not sure about the late pope.

It is amazing you say the slaves would have been free in 10 years anyway. So, are you willing to spend another 10 years working dawn to dusk, whipped, raped, your children torn away and sold? Amazing.

Actually, I didn't guess you had not read Les Mis because you are Christian, I guessed it because it's amazing that anyone can read it and side with the prosecution as you did. Life is indeed amazing.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Are you attempting to say that war isn't legal?

 

[BrianFromWA]

Ghandi, Parks, and King all broke existing laws. Not sure about the late pope.

It is amazing you say the slaves would have been free in 10 years anyway. So, are you willing to spend another 10 years working dawn to dusk, whipped, raped, your children torn away and sold? Amazing.

Not to be pettily argumentative, but why is that amazing to you? Hadn't slavery abolition act after act been passed, restricting and abolishing slavery more and more across the country? Which, in your opinion, did more for the abolition movement...Harriet Tubman stealing 70 people from plantation owners who'd paid for their services, and who became far harsher on the remaining slaves; or evangelical Christian groups and freedmen like Frederick Douglass and the Langston brothers bringing the humanity of the African-American race to the masses and legally protesting their treatment? How many runaway slaves did Harriet steal from England, where Christian groups (led by Wilberforce) abolished slavery 50 years before we did it in the US? How could he possibly have freed millions of slaves worldwide, if not by theft? That's right....constitutional law.
The closest I've ever come to your viewpoint was when former P.O.W.s came to speak to us at the Academy. Hero after hero came to speak to us, and to talk about the apparent (to some of us) dichotomy between the US Code of Conduct "make every effort to escape, and to aid others to escape" versus the maxim "never leave a man behind". It's illegal for us to "accept parole or special favors from the enemy". It's tough to understand, but it makes sense if you apply it to our core values of Honor, Courage and Commitment. The individual does not come above the society. In this case, if you can get a good deal, but your fellow prisoners get tortured and killed b/c of it, you're NOT doing the right thing if you take it and save your own skin.

Actually, I didn't guess you had not read Les Mis because you are Christian, I guessed it because it's amazing that anyone can read it and side with the prosecution as you did. Life is indeed amazing.

Valjean wasn't the sympathetic hero (iirc...it's been about 10 years) because he stole bread, it was because he wasn't able to escape his past as a criminal, even though he'd done his prison time (plus some, for trying to escape and not "do the time"), and his honor in doing the right thing to save the guy (don't remember his name) who was accused of being Valjean and other heroic acts, even saving the policeman's life. I'm not saying that the French law was correct, and it's obviously been changed. But to say "poor Valjean" when he stole the bread, knowing if caught he'd go to prison and be branded for life as a criminal...that's not sympathetic. That's a man making a choice and dealing with the consequences. His honorable actions the rest of the way were part of who he was, not the choice he'd made. Same for Fantine. She didn't go to prison, iirc, because she became a prostitute after being laid off. She went to prison b/c she attacked someone. But the book report can come later...

What do you say to the baker who makes all that bread, and still has his family starve because, in your view, it's ok for people to steal from him if they're hungry?
What do you say to the homeowner whose house it looted, and his pantry emptied, because there are hungry people out there? Who is someone to decide "forget this, I'm stealing from now on because it's good for me?"

Laws. And lives. But your (or my) individual one doesn't count more than society.

 

[The Sebastian Express]

Wow. Just wow.

There's all kind of fuckery in that last post.

"We should just wait around for law and not try to help our fellow slaves escape because hey, eventually we'll be free. Let's have another 10 years of rape, molestation, murder and being dehumanized . That Harriet Tubman only made it worse for us. D:"

I don't even.

Were their lives in danger? Was that a serious question?


JFC.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Serious question. You answering any of mine?
Anyone ever read about Nat Turner? Was what he did right? Did that help out his fellow slaves?