So, Will People Switch to Obamacare?

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PapaG said:
I'm considering taking a large pay cut to work for a non-profit that helps people in need. Not as a volunteer, but to help manage the program structurally and have my boots on the ground level. I think my wife has almost bought-in on the idea.
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Right on.

PapaG said:
Um, what? I'd argue that the poor are celebrated, but largely ignored, while the rich are criticized, yet not hated. At least that seems to be the case with our current administration. The 'poor' community is nothing more than a vote mechanism for the Democratic elite, and I'm finally going to do something to try and help them out, instead of just paying lip service.
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I'm not talking about politics. I'm talking about popular culture.
 
maxiep said:
<<cough>>malpractice insurance<<cough>>administrative compliance costs<<cough>>
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all of those things grew faster than inflation, eh?

cough cough

let them eat cake
 
Who can argue with the creator of Calvin and Hobbes?

Bill Watterson said:
Having an enviable career is one thing, and being a happy person is another.

Creating a life that reflects your values and satisfies your soul is a rare achievement. In a culture that relentlessly promotes avarice and excess as the good life, a person happy doing his own work is usually considered an eccentric, if not a subversive. Ambition is only understood if it's to rise to the top of some imaginary ladder of success. Someone who takes an undemanding job because it affords him the time to pursue other interests and activities is considered a flake. A person who abandons a career in order to stay home and raise children is considered not to be living up to his potential-as if a job title and salary are the sole measure of human worth.

You'll be told in a hundred ways, some subtle and some not, to keep climbing, and never be satisfied with where you are, who you are, and what you're doing. There are a million ways to sell yourself out, and I guarantee you'll hear about them.

To invent your own life's meaning is not easy, but it's still allowed, and I think you'll be happier for the trouble.
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hoojacks said:
Ooh ooh ooh I have my own story no one will care about.

My mom and dad ran away together when they were 18. They lived in tents, cars, and shacks they built themselves out in the mountains of Southern Oregon. After working hard labor and building enough of a life to go to college, they both enrolled at Southern Oregon University. My dad was studying music and my mom was studying fine art. Then they got pregnant with my sister. My dad immediately switched to math and computer science, after being three years into a music degree. He graduated with honors. He got a job programming for the county. He eventually got hired at Nike as an IT architect and we moved to Beaverton where we joined the middle class. He's worked at Nike ever since. He worked long hours. He sacrificed his dreams so that we could live in a split level home and shop at New Seasons and go to Hawaii every 2 or 3 years.

He's now a depressed alcoholic that has totally given up on life. He's as creative as ever, but it has nowhere to go. He is crazy. So I saw my dad and what he did for the family and what it did to him. I swore I would never be him. I honor him, yes. But I miss the normal person he used to be when we were poor. A comfortable life in the suburbs was not worth throwing away my dad's good years and costing him his mental health.
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Well Hoo , all is not lost yet. Dad can learn that he need not waste his life with the Jug.
He could be that fellow you remember again, all he needs is a little help on the how.
If you find he wants some help then you should try really hard to help him find it.
It really is possible. I might even help if he wants help.
 
MarAzul said:
Well Hoo , all is not lost yet. Dad can learn that he need not waste his life with the Jug.
He could be that fellow you remember again, all he needs is a little help on the how.
If you find he wants some help then you should try really hard to help him find it.
It really is possible. I might even help if he wants help.
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He's going to retire soon and then we're staging some kind of serious intervention.
 
Today I learned maxiep, papag, hoojacks and myself are all more similar than we thought. Maxiep is pissed because he felt like he couldn't follow his dreams (and others might not have to make the same sacrifice), Papag is frustrated because he didn't follow his dreams, hoojacks is anxious because he might have to give up his dreams, and I am filled with void because I never gave my dreams a real chance. Can I get a group hug?

The common denominator as I see it is health care. We all could have probably made it with 1/10 our salaries (except hoojacks cause he doesn't make shit already), I know I could have and I did at one point. Imagine where we all could be if the fear of loosing everything due to illness and lack of health care wasn't one of our core driving concerns? Would our country be better off if we were all contributing to society in ways we loved rather than we felt force into? For just the four of us it probably wouldn't matter much, but on a larger scale imagine how our country would be right now if everyone were allowed this freedom? Imagine how much more entrepreneurship, creativity, personal innovation, and social help people could offer to the greater good if they could cut the corporate health care shackles. Imagine how many more people would be working right now because they got the care they needed or the benefits of having a job outweighed being poor and receiving benefits? Imagine how much more money business would have to reinvest if they didn't have to cover their employee's health care benefits. I'm probably to much of Utopian in this aspect but I really believe health care is an investment in our countries present and future that we need to make. You might say we can't afford to give everyone health care, but I say we can't afford not to. I personally would happily pay 3x the taxes I currently pay if it ensured everyone had this freedom.
 
donkiez said:
Today I learned maxiep, papag, hoojacks and myself are all more similar than we thought. Maxiep is pissed because he felt like he couldn't follow his dreams (and others might not have to make the same sacrifice), Papag is frustrated because he didn't follow his dreams, hoojacks is anxious because he might have to give up his dreams, and I am filled with void because I never gave my dreams a real chance. Can I get a group hug?

The common denominator as I see it is health care. We all could have probably made it with 1/10 our salaries (except hoojacks cause he doesn't make shit already), I know I could have and I did at one point. Imagine where we all could be if the fear of loosing everything due to illness and lack of health care wasn't one of our core driving concerns? Would our country be better off if we were all contributing to society in ways we loved rather than we felt force into? For just the four of us it probably wouldn't matter much, but on a larger scale imagine how our country would be right now if everyone were allowed this freedom? Imagine how much more entrepreneurship, creativity, personal innovation, and social help people could offer to the greater good if they could cut the corporate health care shackles. Imagine how many more people would be working right now because they got the care they needed or the benefits of having a job outweighed being poor and receiving benefits? Imagine how much more money business would have to reinvest if they didn't have to cover their employee's health care benefits. I'm probably to much of Utopian in this aspect but I really believe health care is an investment in our countries present and future that we need to make. You might say we can't afford to give everyone health care, but I say we can't afford not to. I personally would happily pay 3x the taxes I currently pay if it ensured everyone had this freedom.
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My wife is in management for a large HMO, so I have to admit that health care isn't an issue in my situation.
 
donkiez said:
Today I learned maxiep, papag, hoojacks and myself are all more similar than we thought. Maxiep is pissed because he felt like he couldn't follow his dreams (and others might not have to make the same sacrifice), Papag is frustrated because he didn't follow his dreams, hoojacks is anxious because he might have to give up his dreams, and I am filled with void because I never gave my dreams a real chance. Can I get a group hug?

The common denominator as I see it is health care. We all could have probably made it with 1/10 our salaries (except hoojacks cause he doesn't make shit already), I know I could have and I did at one point. Imagine where we all could be if the fear of loosing everything due to illness and lack of health care wasn't one of our core driving concerns? Would our country be better off if we were all contributing to society in ways we loved rather than we felt force into? For just the four of us it probably wouldn't matter much, but on a larger scale imagine how our country would be right now if everyone were allowed this freedom? Imagine how much more entrepreneurship, creativity, personal innovation, and social help people could offer to the greater good if they could cut the corporate health care shackles. Imagine how many more people would be working right now because they got the care they needed or the benefits of having a job outweighed being poor and receiving benefits? Imagine how much more money business would have to reinvest if they didn't have to cover their employee's health care benefits. I'm probably to much of Utopian in this aspect but I really believe health care is an investment in our countries present and future that we need to make. You might say we can't afford to give everyone health care, but I say we can't afford not to. I personally would happily pay 3x the taxes I currently pay if it ensured everyone had this freedom.
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This is awesome and I agree. Studies on productivity routinely show that if you take the concept of making more money out of the equation and make people comfortable, they are more productive and innovative because they have room for experimentation and improvisation. I would argue something like health concerns would work similarly.

This reminds me of an awesome vlog brothers episode I saw recently:

[video=youtube;R7LF5Vj2n64]
 
hoojacks said:
This is awesome and I agree. Studies on productivity routinely show that if you take the concept of making more money out of the equation and make people comfortable, they are more productive and innovative because they have room for experimentation and improvisation. I would argue something like health concerns would work similarly.

This reminds me of an awesome vlog brothers episode I saw recently:
[video=youtube;R7LF5Vj2n64]
Click to expand...


Holy Crap! How long is it suppose to take before you kill this?
 
donkiez said:
It was your choice to enter that profession. If you did not want to be vilified perhaps you should studied something that's more socially respected or live with the consequence of your actions. :lol:
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A perfectly fair point. Of course, the rules have changed since 2008. Now sitting on your ass with your hand out is respected.
 
donkiez said:
Today I learned maxiep, papag, hoojacks and myself are all more similar than we thought. Maxiep is pissed because he felt like he couldn't follow his dreams (and others might not have to make the same sacrifice), Papag is frustrated because he didn't follow his dreams, hoojacks is anxious because he might have to give up his dreams, and I am filled with void because I never gave my dreams a real chance. Can I get a group hug?

The common denominator as I see it is health care. We all could have probably made it with 1/10 our salaries (except hoojacks cause he doesn't make shit already), I know I could have and I did at one point. Imagine where we all could be if the fear of loosing everything due to illness and lack of health care wasn't one of our core driving concerns? Would our country be better off if we were all contributing to society in ways we loved rather than we felt force into? For just the four of us it probably wouldn't matter much, but on a larger scale imagine how our country would be right now if everyone were allowed this freedom? Imagine how much more entrepreneurship, creativity, personal innovation, and social help people could offer to the greater good if they could cut the corporate health care shackles. Imagine how many more people would be working right now because they got the care they needed or the benefits of having a job outweighed being poor and receiving benefits? Imagine how much more money business would have to reinvest if they didn't have to cover their employee's health care benefits. I'm probably to much of Utopian in this aspect but I really believe health care is an investment in our countries present and future that we need to make. You might say we can't afford to give everyone health care, but I say we can't afford not to. I personally would happily pay 3x the taxes I currently pay if it ensured everyone had this freedom.
Click to expand...

I'm not pissed in the least. I have had a great life. Of course, I made utility maximizing choices. Where I am dismayed is I'm now being told that people who haven't worked nearly as hard are coming to me with their hands out. I have no problem helping the helpless; I have a real problem helping those who feel they are entitled to what I've earned before they've gotten off their ass.

Health care has little if anything to do with it.
 
hoojacks said:
This is awesome and I agree. Studies on productivity routinely show that if you take the concept of making more money out of the equation and make people comfortable, they are more productive and innovative because they have room for experimentation and improvisation. I would argue something like health concerns would work similarly.

This reminds me of an awesome vlog brothers episode I saw recently:

[video=youtube;R7LF5Vj2n64]
Click to expand...


That's me on meth!!!
 
maxiep said:
I'm not pissed in the least. I have had a great life. Of course, I made utility maximizing choices. Where I am dismayed is I'm now being told that people who haven't worked nearly as hard are coming to me with their hands out. I have no problem helping the helpless; I have a real problem helping those who feel they are entitled to what I've earned before they've gotten off their ass.

Health care has little if anything to do with it.
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Put that way I agree with you then. I don't like it either, but I don't get so upset about it. A certain percentage will always do that, I would rather marginalize their effect on the rest of us and increase the incentives of those who do try. Health care has everything to do with it IMO, its a baseline that everyone should start with. I feel that if you start with a healthy population that gives a shit then your going to max potential. Kind of like employee owned stores, service is always a little better.
 
PapaG said:
My wife is in management for a large HMO, so I have to admit that health care isn't an issue in my situation.
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Your just trying to get out of the group hug. Not going to happen.
 
maxiep said:
They did.
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3x inflation. Not because of jury awards, and not because of malpractice insurance cost.

In California, malpractice insurance costs $22K-$34K per year for general surgeons (about what they charge for one basic surgery), while internal medicine doctors pay $6K. $6K while charging $400/hr. That's the most expensive state for insurance.

Malpractice awards total about $4B/year, while health care costs are 17.9% of GDP, or $trillions.
 
Denny Crane said:
3x inflation. Not because of jury awards, and not because of malpractice insurance cost.

In California, malpractice insurance costs $22K-$34K per year for general surgeons (about what they charge for one basic surgery), while internal medicine doctors pay $6K. $6K while charging $400/hr. That's the most expensive state for insurance.

Malpractice awards total about $4B/year, while health care costs are 17.9% of GDP, or $trillions.
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You're missing a whole bunch of other costs. First, the cost of malpractice insurance for the physicians. Second, the cost of unnecessary tests being run simply to protect against malpractice. Third, the cost built into every other device, medicine or service that goes to malpractice. Fourth, the cost of medical school in the first place. And fifth, the amount of money and time spent on non-treatment tasks (insurance, administrative, patient records, compliance, etc.)

There's a reason tort lawyers all contribute to the Democratic Party. They make sure the money keeps flowing to them at the expense of the health care industry.

What you need to look for is how much non-specialist physicians are netting compared to what they did net even fifteen years ago on an inflation adjusted basis. You can have that question answered by the shortage of those physicians. The growth is occurring in the elective areas, like plastic surgery.
 
enhanced-buzz-wide-5417-1378832798-28.jpg
 
We have a healthcare system designed by lawyers instead of physicians.

/endofdiscussion
 
maxiep said:
You're missing a whole bunch of other costs. First, the cost of malpractice insurance for the physicians. Second, the cost of unnecessary tests being run simply to protect against malpractice. Third, the cost built into every other device, medicine or service that goes to malpractice. Fourth, the cost of medical school in the first place. And fifth, the amount of money and time spent on non-treatment tasks (insurance, administrative, patient records, compliance, etc.)

There's a reason tort lawyers all contribute to the Democratic Party. They make sure the money keeps flowing to them at the expense of the health care industry.

What you need to look for is how much non-specialist physicians are netting compared to what they did net even fifteen years ago on an inflation adjusted basis. You can have that question answered by the shortage of those physicians. The growth is occurring in the elective areas, like plastic surgery.
Click to expand...

What part of $6K per year for malpractice insurance for internal medicine doctors did you miss? Those would be your physicians.

And again, malpractice costs $4B out of ~$2.8TRILLION in health care expenses. If the 3x inflation difference is malpractice costs, they're spending $1.9T (the over inflation amount) in what you say goes toward malpractice. Absurd.

I'm no fan of lawyers, but the facts and your rhetoric doesn't line up.

If there's a shortage of physicians, then supply/demand would mean they would be able to charge ridiculous rates. Lots of demand, little supply.

I think you misuse "elective" when it comes to medicine, btw.

MIEC.50113728_std.jpg


http://truecostofhealthcare.org/malpractice

So, why so little? If medical malpractice is so incredibly expensive that its breaking the back of healthcare in this Country, why is my bill so low? Is it because Im such an outstanding doctor that my insurance provider long ago recognized that I would never be sued? Well, I'd like to think that were true but, no. I recently surveyed some of the doctors who practice near my office. Many of them have their accountant or biller take care of their bills for them so they were strangely unaware of what they paid and rather surprised when I got them to look at their bills.

I asked the nephrologist, who has an office one floor below me, to open her bill in front of me. She pays $2,953 a year. Six dollars a year more than I pay and she runs a dialysis unit.

There are two cardiologists who share an office one floor below her. One does angioplasties; which are a very invasive and sometimes dangerous procedure. He pays $5,500 a year. The other one doesnt do that procedure so he only pays $3,800.

A pulmonologist, whose office is around the corner from them, pays $4,200 a year and he oversees an ICU and does bronchoscopies (another invasive and potentially dangerous procedure). Before getting him to look at his bill, he assured me several times that it was twice that amount.

An ophthalmologist I know pays $3,800 a year and does eye surgery, though he told me that his premiums were cut in half when he stopped doing complicated eye surgeries. Emergency Room physicians (who have a very high exposure to malpractice suits) pay about $12,000 a year. General surgery: $18,000, Orthopedic surgery: $20,000.

Of all the doctors I spoke to, only Obstetrics/Gynecology paid enough in malpractice premiums as to be a burden (surgeons make a lot even by a doctors standard so most can afford $18,000-$20,000 a year). The one Ob/Gyn doctor I asked told me he pays $40,000 a year (and he's never been sued).

Its easy to see from these examples that medical malpractice premiums dont have much financial impact on me or most of my colleagues
 
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