Some GREAT info from Quick (What Billups investigation took place, where Dame stands with the Team)

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Natebishop3 said:
Atlanta feels kind of like us a couple years ago. They had all the right cards fall on the table to get them to the Finals (potentially) but I think they get absolutely exposed by Phoenix.
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Atlanta- star point guard surrounded by solid role players with no ego that most importantly accepted their roles.

So two teams with a similar formula got to the conference finals in a span of a couple years. That doesn’t sound like an anomaly or fluke to me.
 
B-Roy said:
Dame has to see the other (contender) teams that have traded the "future package" for star/near-star level players in the past few years right? Here I'll name them:

Lakers
Clippers
Heat
Brooklyn
Milwaukee
Houston

You don't think that's the core of the disconnect between Olshey and Dame? Olshey doesn't want to do that. He wants to tinker on the margins and keep future flexibility. Dame wants to win now, he's 31 already, put up MVP level season/playoff performances, and got bounced by a team that got swept the next round.

And yes, I'm aware most of those teams are not in the conference finals now, and some failed (Houston lol), but if we don't meaningfully improve the roster to a point where Dame is confident in it, he is asking out. I guarantee it. Olshey basically said as much yesterday.

You also HAD to have noticed how his tone regarding the roster was completely different than his tone in the press conference after we lost to Denver right? In that one, he was talking about "minimal roster changes". The one yesterday he spent paragraphs talking about how he needs to improve the roster. That is because of Dame.
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Your take is very possibly correct, however....

This is Absolute Madness for a small market team. It's completely amazing that people on here bitch about Olshey being an idiot because Nicholson's contract is still on our books, but wants to destroy any real possibility for improving the roster for 5 or 6 years into the future? Anthony Davis is not walking through that door.

Let me spell it out. We can only improve the team by:
Trades, Draft, Free Agency

We're a small market team, we DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO FREE AGENCY.
Trading 3 draft picks + 2 draft swaps means we don't have access to the draft.
So, all we have are trades... but one of the biggest assets used in trades are draft picks, which we won't have, so our ability to trade truly diminished.

Who is this player that we'd be getting. Well, Milwaukee just used that to get Jrue Holiday. Friends, we are more than a Jrue Holiday away from a championship.

It is actually better to trade Lillard to a big market team than to do mortgage our future.
 
B-Roy said:
Interesting, but how many picks go to who?

Also Collins can't be traded unless it's a S&T. Who is going to want someone that can't play next season? I think just cut the Wizards out, move Nurk to Toronto. Figure out the pick situation. Most will go to Toronto, but I don't think Philly does a straight swap, so it's hard.
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Zach's only in there to get the trade machine to accept the deal because of the hard cap. If that's done after the new league year, he's unnecessary.
 
illmatic99 said:
Here's the framework for what I am saying.

Send every pick and pick swap from now to eternity to Minnesota.
View attachment 39324
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The problem with these deals is where do the picks go? I really don't think Philly does Simmons for McCollum straight up, so at least one pick must go to them.

Nurk, Covington, Simons, Little and 2 firsts/2 swaps for Towns seems like fair value? But is Minny ready to move on from Towns? And if they are, Nurk and RoCo don't really have much value to them.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Only problem I see there is Zach is a free agent and I don't think DJJ will be opting in.
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You think DJJ will turn down his guaranteed $10M after being benched at the end of the season two years in a row?
 
Wizard Mentor said:
Your take is very possibly correct, however....

This is Absolute Madness for a small market team. It's completely amazing that people on here bitch about Olshey being an idiot because Nicholson's contract is still on our books, but wants to destroy any real possibility for improving the roster for 5 or 6 years into the future? Anthony Davis is not walking through that door.

Let me spell it out. We can only improve the team by:
Trades, Draft, Free Agency

We're a small market team, we DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO FREE AGENCY.
Trading 3 draft picks + 2 draft swaps means we don't have access to the draft.
So, all we have are trades... but one of the biggest assets used in trades are draft picks, which we won't have, so our ability to trade truly diminished.

Who is this player that we'd be getting. Well, Milwaukee just used that to get Jrue Holiday. Friends, we are more than a Jrue Holiday away from a championship.

It is actually better to trade Lillard to a big market team than to do mortgage our future.
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Totally agree with all of this. This is definitely the internal dilemma with the FO. We have heard reports that suggest the FO and Dame are in conflict. Would not be surprised if this was the number 1 reason. Dame wants to push all the chips in, Olshey and the FO are clearly hesitant.

Also, I am not saying that I PERSONALLY would make that type of deal. I'm saying that's what will make Dame happy. If you stick to your guns, make some changes regarding the periphery of the roster, maybe move some guys for better fits, go ahead and do that. I guarantee you Dame will not be happy, and if we start losing expect the rumblings to get louder and for him to ask for a trade.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
You think DJJ will turn down his guaranteed $10M after being benched at the end of the season two years in a row?
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I have seen quite a few players turn down money to go out and get more years. If he ops out now, he can sell it as "Stotts was a moron. See, he was fired." And maybe get a decent multi-year contract. But if he doesn't opt out, and the same thing happens with Billups, that could really kill his value.
 
B-Roy said:
The problem with these deals is where do the picks go? I really don't think Philly does Simmons for McCollum straight up, so at least one pick must go to them.

Nurk, Covington, Simons, Little and 2 firsts/2 swaps for Towns seems like fair value? But is Minny ready to move on from Towns? And if they are, Nurk and RoCo don't really have much value to them.
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it's tricky for sure, but getting the better end of trades is the only way to move the needle here. Far-fetched i realize, but that's why I said we don't really have the avenues to climb to contender status.

Losing Collins again hurts us more than we realize right now as well-- he coulda been either a serviceable center or a moveable contract, now he's neither.

The key now will be to retain Powell and Jones. We need to have those contracts on the books to be able to move later.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
Zach's only in there to get the trade machine to accept the deal because of the hard cap. If that's done after the new league year, he's unnecessary.
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I don't think the ESPN trade machine has moved into the 21-22 season yet.

You should use the fanspo trade machine. You can select next season AND include picks.

https://fanspo.com/nba/trade-machine
 
What if Powell signs with another team in the first minutes of free agency?
 
B-Roy said:
Interesting, but how many picks go to who?

Also Collins can't be traded unless it's a S&T. Who is going to want someone that can't play next season? I think just cut the Wizards out, move Nurk to Toronto. Figure out the pick situation. Most will go to Toronto, but I don't think Philly does a straight swap, so it's hard.
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Wizards are involved 'cause I figure they're one of the few teams that might be interested in Nurk as a "go for it" piece, and I imagine a rebuilding Toronto team would be more interested in the 23-year-old Bryant than in Nurk. Zach is not a needed part of the deal if it occurs after the start of the new league year.
 
Wizard Mentor said:
We're a small market team, we DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO FREE AGENCY.
Trading 3 draft picks + 2 draft swaps means we don't have access to the draft.
So, all we have are trades... but one of the biggest assets used in trades are draft picks, which we won't have, so our ability to trade truly diminished.
Click to expand...
One more thing is that this is not 100% true. If we flame out, we will trade, Dame, CJ and whoever else is on the roster in a complete teardown. So maybe we don't have control of our draft picks, but we will have picks, and probably lots of them (from the Dame trade).

Oh, and it won't be Olshey tearing down the roster and making the picks, so there's that to look forward to at least.
 
i dont see how is having dame, cj mccollum, powell & nurk doable

dame & cj mccollum already signed huge contracts, powell will opt out for sure as he will be looking for a big, long term contract and then nurks contract expires next season and he will ask for a big contract too

if you keep them all, you will be giving a lot of money to just 4 guys and wheres the rest of the team

this guy think nurk will get traded and to be fair, he made good points

 
B-Roy said:
I don't think Dame would feel much better about the roster if that happened. Just don't. Don't care if you disagree, it's just how I'm reading the tea leaves from everything that's happened since we got eliminated.

Think we need to push all our future firsts on the table to add to this current group. Its not just trading CJ. Trading CJ can be part of it for sure.

2022 first, 2023 swap, 2024 first, 2025 swap, 2026 first. That's super valuable, especially the later picks. I don't care who tells you otherwise.

That's our package. Now go out and find someone willing to make that deal.
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sure....if Olshey quits fucking around while overvaluing CJ and uses a collection of picks to leverage CJ into a better player than CJ that would be great. But that's not CJ for a better player, that's CJ and lots of assets for a better player

I think Olshey, at least publicly is in a corner. He needs to swing big, and CJ's salary is about the only big swing he has to add to draft picks. But I think we all know that about the last thing Olshey wants to do is trade CJ....unless he has no other choice. I'd bet he is still banking on the Dame/CJ back court to look a lot different with a new coach. It's a terrible gamble IMO, but Olshey's history sure suggests that possibility. The other thing boxing him into the corner is Powell's free agency. I have a hard time seeing Portland, with CJ as the starting SG, as an attractive option for Powell. If the Blazers lose Powell to free agency, they immediately become a worse team than last season; I'd also bet that Seattle would have some immediate questions for Olshey

granted, I have little faith in Olshey and I don't pay any attention to his talk. I know others, with almost as little faith as me, are encouraged by Olshey's words recently. We'll see. But I'm convinced that Portland can not get significantly better without breaking up the Dame/CJ pairing and I'm unconvinced Olshey sees that pairing any differently than he has for 6 years
 
I'm just going to throw this out there: Does the forum think CJ is a defensive liability because he can't play defense or is he a defensive liability because the Stotts staff never made his playing defense enough of a priority?

Because it you think it's the latter, and CJ can be turned into a passable defender and a more efficient offensive player under the tutelage of a guy who was a pretty efficient, team-0riented point guard, the need to move CJ might have diminished considerably.
 
PCmor7 said:
I'm just going to throw this out there: Does the forum think CJ is a defensive liability because he can't play defense or is he a defensive liability because the Stotts staff never made his playing defense enough of a priority?

Because it you think it's the latter, and CJ can be turned into a passable defender and a more efficient offensive player under the tutelage of a guy who was a pretty efficient, team-0riented point guard, the need to move CJ might have diminished considerably.
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especially if billups gets CJ off the ball and uses him more as a spot up guy ala Klay/Reddick, which I’ve been begging for for years. He is an elite spot up shooter, yet Stotts never really even thought to commit to it.
 
If it's me, I try to make two trades happen.

CJ to NY, young pieces to Toronto, Siakam to PDX.

And then I try to make a move that sends Nurk/Simons/picks to Washington, Beal to Philly, and Simmons to Portland.

Dame
Norm
RoCo
Siakam
Simmons

To me, that's a championship team. I thought about trying to get Beal for us, but isn't he just another CJ for all intents and purposes?
 
PCmor7 said:
I'm just going to throw this out there: Does the forum think CJ is a defensive liability because he can't play defense or is he a defensive liability because the Stotts staff never made his playing defense enough of a priority?

Because it you think it's the latter, and CJ can be turned into a passable defender and a more efficient offensive player under the tutelage of a guy who was a pretty efficient, team-0riented point guard, the need to move CJ might have diminished considerably.
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Chauncey pretty much said he sees CJ, Dame and Nurk as our big 3 and he loves Nurk...wants to give Nurk a bigger role.....didn't mention Norm at all though...from Olshey I've heard he wants to see our young guys play...that means we're going to see what Nas, Ant and Elleby can add to the rotation instead of waiving towels.....looks like Melo is in New York now and doubt Enes will return ..Giles might take his spot...Dame wants to play with Draymond Green....I'm sure that could be pulled off with some sort of trade....Kerr has had issues with Draymond for years now
 
wizenheimer said:
sure....if Olshey quits fucking around while overvaluing CJ and uses a collection of picks to leverage CJ into a better player than CJ that would be great. But that's not CJ for a better player, that's CJ and lots of assets for a better player

I think Olshey, at least publicly is in a corner. He needs to swing big, and CJ's salary is about the only big swing he has to add to draft picks. But I think we all know that about the last thing Olshey wants to do is trade CJ....unless he has no other choice. I'd bet he is still banking on the Dame/CJ back court to look a lot different with a new coach. It's a terrible gamble IMO, but Olshey's history sure suggests that possibility. The other thing boxing him into the corner is Powell's free agency. I have a hard time seeing Portland, with CJ as the starting SG, as an attractive option for Powell. If the Blazers lose Powell to free agency, they immediately become a worse team than last season; I'd also bet that Seattle would have some immediate questions for Olshey

granted, I have little faith in Olshey and I don't pay any attention to his talk. I know others, with almost as little faith as me, are encouraged by Olshey's words recently. We'll see. But I'm convinced that Portland can not get significantly better without breaking up the Dame/CJ pairing and I'm unconvinced Olshey sees that pairing any differently than he has for 6 years
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I'm not encouraged. I don't see anywhere where people are encouraged by what he says. I'm just laying out the situation. Push your chips in to improve the roster, or lose Dame and your job with it. If Olshey continues doing what he's done for the last few years he will lose Dame and his job. I'm sure the latter will make people happy. The former will make people cry.

He has to know CJ is on the table. Whether CJ is actually traded or not depends on a lot of factors, but if Dame doesn't have confidence in the roster he is gone. And you're crazy if you think Olshey doesn't know that.
 
B-Roy said:
I'm not encouraged. I don't see anywhere where people are encouraged by what he says. I'm just laying out the situation. Push your chips in to improve the roster, or lose Dame and your job with it. If Olshey continues doing what he's done for the last few years he will lose Dame and his job. I'm sure the latter will make people happy. The former will make people cry.

He has to know CJ is on the table. Whether CJ is actually traded or not depends on a lot of factors, but if Dame doesn't have confidence in the roster he is gone. And you're crazy if you think Olshey doesn't know that.
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I say you trade CJ for what you think is good value, even if it doesn't necessarily impress Dame. Even if he's unhappy, Dame won't sandbag. He's not that guy. Hope we win and he comes around.
 
PCmor7 said:
I'm just going to throw this out there: Does the forum think CJ is a defensive liability because he can't play defense or is he a defensive liability because the Stotts staff never made his playing defense enough of a priority?

Because it you think it's the latter, and CJ can be turned into a passable defender and a more efficient offensive player under the tutelage of a guy who was a pretty efficient, team-0riented point guard, the need to move CJ might have diminished considerably.
Click to expand...

CJ's on-ball defense is not good. That won't change with another defensive scheme

another thing that won't change is that CJ is being paid all-star money and uses an all-star amount of the team's possessions and doesn't have all-star talent. That's been the unsolvable riddle for 6 years
 
Natebishop3 said:
If it's me, I try to make two trades happen.

CJ to NY, young pieces to Toronto, Siakam to PDX.

And then I try to make a move that sends Nurk/Simons/picks to Washington, Beal to Philly, and Simmons to Portland.

Dame
Norm
RoCo
Siakam
Simmons

To me, that's a championship team. I thought about trying to get Beal for us, but isn't he just another CJ for all intents and purposes?
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That's basically the same net effect that I'm going for. Only issue with your construction is that Nurk/Simons isn't enough outgoing salary to receive Simmons, which is why I'm factoring DJJ in.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
That's basically the same net effect that I'm going for. Only issue with your construction is that Nurk/Simons isn't enough outgoing salary to receive Simmons, which is why I'm factoring DJJ in.
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Oh... yeah I did actually include him, I just forgot to mention him. Here was the trade machine

upload_2021-6-30_11-32-59.png
 
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