Stat of the Night

[Scalma]

I thoroughly stand corrected. Dame jacking up 19 shots hitting only 3 while Nurkic getting only 5 shots...and making them all is by far the better strategy. How could I not see that.

I'm all for banter and agreeing to disagree. The just plain 'stupid' retort doesn't accomplish much though.

It's stupid.

 

[riverman]

It's stupid.

I stopped myself from a Forrest Gump quote

 

[TBpup]

It's stupid.

Brilliant response....you just made me $5 bucks, thank you.

 

[Strenuus]

No he didn't. He was 4-8 from the field and 2-4 from 3-point range. How is that sucking at ALL facets of the game? There isn't a player in the league, not even Kyle Korver, that would consider going 50% from downtown a bad shooting night.



Completely irrelevant to my point about the misuse/misunderstanding of the +/- stat.



Show me where I said differently. I did not. All I said is the OP's use of the +/- for a single game does not offer conclusive proof of anything. Dame was -17 tonight and Connaughton was +8. Does that prove Patty Baseball is better than Dame? Does Ed Davis being -36 in 19 minutes "prove" he's even worse than Meyers?

No, of course, not. And that's the problem with using a single game sample of +/- to compare two players. It's completely invalid, and that was my ONLY point.

BNM

that 4-8 was negated by him being putrid. I dont think it was a coinicdince that every time he was subbed in for Nurkic we would fall into a bigger hole.. He's not a good big man, and I highly doubt he ever will be.

I do agree that the +/- for one game is trash. But Meyers has been trash for years, so I'll go off of that, and conclude that Nurkic is already better than him (in Denver and here for 1 game). Because he is.

And, even as big of a dame supporter as I am, hes sucked for awhile too. But, he's the star player - and were not fucking morons, so you can't compare the two.

Meyers sucks. Nurkic is already better than him.

 

[riverman]

I'd say Nurkic has rattled Meyer more as a teammate than as an opponent....when he walked into practice Meyers probably closed his eyes and winced

 

[Boob-No-More]

The plus minus argument is well known I think....we get that....it's just a measurement of impact and circumstance but it is a stat.....and it has some value for a quick snapshot of court time......yeah....there's the Hubie Brown way of breaking it down but it's just a live game pt of reference as much as anything...I think Stren knows PC having a plus isn't making him a better player than Dame....but for a stretch, he just might have had a better impact on a game.

Again, my argument is with the OP's misuse/misunderstanding of the single game +/- to show how much better Nurkic is than Meyers. That's a completely invalid use of the +/- single game stat, and I provided other examples to prove it.

Why is Meyers -30 and Nurkic +19 the "stat of the night", but Ed Davis being -36, or Dame being -17 and Pat being +8 isn't? Simple, the first suits the OP's narrative and the others don't.

I'm NOT claiming Meyers is better, nothing of the sort. My pet peeve is the continued misuse of the +/- stat to suit a specific agenda. You want to show how badly Meyers sucks? There are plenty of perfectly valid ways to do that. A one game sample size of +/- is not one of them.

BNM

 

[Scalma]

From 30 seconds on its just Lillard setting up Nurkic.

Now show me tape of specifically where Nurkic was being ignored tonight.

Thanks.

 

[Boob-No-More]

that 4-8 was negated by him being putrid. I dont think it was a coinicdince that every time he was subbed in for Nurkic we would fall into a bigger hole.. He's not a good big man, and I highly doubt he ever will be.

Having a net negative impact is NOT that same thing as "sucking at all facets of the game today". Shooting the basketball is one facet of the game, and tonight, he didn't suck at it.

I've said it in every post I've made in this thread - I am not claiming Meyers doesn't suck. My one, and only quibble is the misuse of the single game +/- stat to "prove" it. It proves NOTHING.

But Meyers has been trash for years, so I'll go off of that, and conclude that Nurkic is already better than him (in Denver and here for 1 game). Because he is.

Did I say otherwise? No, I didn't. So, please stop arguing with me about something I didn't say.

Meyers sucks. Nurkic is already better than him.

Show me where I disputed this.

BNM

 

[Strenuus]

Having a net negative impact is NOT that same thing as "sucking at all facets of the game today". Shooting the basketball is one facet of the game, and tonight, he didn't suck at it.

I've said it in every post I've made in this thread - I am not claiming Meyers doesn't suck. My one, and only quibble is the misuse of the single game +/- stat to "prove" it. It proves NOTHING.



Did I say otherwise? No, I didn't. So, please stop arguing with me about something I didn't say.



Show me where I disputed this.

BNM

Never said you said it. That is MY point.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Anyone else reminded of Duckworth when watching Nurkic?

Yes. The way he holds the ball with one hand while taking on contact before he shoots his hook.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Brilliant response....you just made me $5 bucks, thank you.

From yourself?

 

[BlayZa]

This stat does not mean what you think it means. Anyone who uses a single game +/- to compare two players either doesn't understand what the stat means, has a specific agenda, or most often, both.

Ed Davis was -36 tonight. So, does that "prove" he's even worse than Meyers?

Hell no it doesn't. I get that everyone hates Meyers, thinks he sucks and is excited about Nurkic, but using this stat, in this way, is not valid.

+/- is not an individual stat, especially for a one game sample size. It is highly dependent on the other 9 players on the court. If one, or more, of your teammates has a bad shooting night, or plays shitty defense, it negatively impacts your +/-, even if you're ballin' your ass off. The reverse is also true. If one of your teammates comes out and lights it up and goes 18-22, you're going to have a damn fine +/- for that game, even if you individually went 0-4 with 1 point and 2 rebounds in 36 minutes. Likewise, it is dependent on the quality of the opposition's play. If a player on the other team is lighting up one of your teammates, your +/- suffers through no fault of your own.

So, you have to ask yourself, why did both Meyers and Ed have such a low +/- tonight. In a nut shell, they both started and were both in at the start of the second half, when their teammates couldn't make a shot. Just go back and look at the first 7 minutes of the game, Dame and C.J. were a combined 0-9 from the field and Portland was down 18-8. Meyers and Ed actually played well during that stretch, but they both get stuck with -10 in the +/- column for those 7 minutes.

I'm not saying Meyers doesn't suck Nor, am I saying, Nurkic isn't better. What I am saying is using a single game sample of +/- to prove either premise is a misuse/misunderstanding of the stat.

BNM

Meyers has sucked for pretty much 5yrs with no chill.

im 100% saying meyers sucks.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Meyers has sucked for pretty much 5yrs with no chill.

im 100% saying meyers sucks.

So? What does that have to do with anything I've said in this thread?

BNM

 

[Jade Falcon]

that 4-8 was negated by him being putrid. I dont think it was a coinicdince that every time he was subbed in for Nurkic we would fall into a bigger hole.. He's not a good big man, and I highly doubt he ever will be.

I do agree that the +/- for one game is trash. But Meyers has been trash for years, so I'll go off of that, and conclude that Nurkic is already better than him (in Denver and here for 1 game). Because he is.

And, even as big of a dame supporter as I am, hes sucked for awhile too. But, he's the star player - and were not fucking morons, so you can't compare the two.

Meyers sucks. Nurkic is already better than him.

End of story.

If anyone bothered watching Meyers in this game, it was the same ol' shit. He looked lost, didn't even try to play Defense, got bullied by guys a third of his size, and missed several easy rebounds.

And this is the case constantly with him.

Trying to justify it by saying that he had 4-8 or whatever that stat was is utter bullshit of an enormous magnitude. He was the same old bad Meyers that we've always known.

 

[BlayZa]

So? What does that have to do with anything I've said in this thread?

BNM

"I'm not saying Meyers doesn't suck"

your double negative, my 100% positive

and that his suckage in +/- goes well beyond this 1 game example

 

[Boob-No-More]

"I'm not saying Meyers doesn't suck"

your double negative, my 100% positive

and that his suckage in +/- goes well beyond this 1 game example

Read the title of the thread. It's "Stat of the Night", not Stat of the Season, not Stat of the Last Four and a Half Years. This thread is about this specific 1 game sample.

BNM

 

[Strenuus]

Read the title of the thread. It's "Stat of the Night", not Stat of the Season, not Stat of the Last Four and a Half Years. This thread is about this specific 1 game sample.

BNM

lol. It'll be okay, buddy. What we are saying is also true, we don't have to stick to the semantic. Breathe.

We're both very pretty girls, lets not fight.

 

[blue9]

This is all we need to know about who should be our starting center:

Meyers Leonard +/- : -30
Jusef Nurkic +/- : +19

I completely agree, but I just think it's funny that Meyers gets picked on just because he's Meyers. Ed Davis was -36. Meyers actually played "well" for being Meyers.

 

[TBpup]

I completely agree, but I just think it's funny that Meyers gets picked on just because he's Meyers. Ed Davis was -36. Meyers actually played "well" for being Meyers.

"Played well for being Meyers." A new paradigm in explanations of where the bar has actually been set and what is possible.

 

[blue9]

This stat does not mean what you think it means. Anyone who uses a single game +/- to compare two players either doesn't understand what the stat means, has a specific agenda, or most often, both.

Ed Davis was -36 tonight. So, does that "prove" he's even worse than Meyers?

Hell no it doesn't. I get that everyone hates Meyers, thinks he sucks and is excited about Nurkic, but using this stat, in this way, is not valid.

+/- is not an individual stat, especially for a one game sample size. It is highly dependent on the other 9 players on the court. If one, or more, of your teammates has a bad shooting night, or plays shitty defense, it negatively impacts your +/-, even if you're ballin' your ass off. The reverse is also true. If one of your teammates comes out and lights it up and goes 18-22, you're going to have a damn fine +/- for that game, even if you individually went 0-4 with 1 point and 2 rebounds in 36 minutes. Likewise, it is dependent on the quality of the opposition's play. If a player on the other team is lighting up one of your teammates, your +/- suffers through no fault of your own.

So, you have to ask yourself, why did both Meyers and Ed have such a low +/- tonight. In a nut shell, they both started and were both in at the start of the second half, when their teammates couldn't make a shot. Just go back and look at the first 7 minutes of the game, Dame and C.J. were a combined 0-9 from the field and Portland was down 18-8. Meyers and Ed actually played well during that stretch, but they both get stuck with -10 in the +/- column for those 7 minutes.

I'm not saying Meyers doesn't suck Nor, am I saying, Nurkic isn't better. What I am saying is using a single game sample of +/- to prove either premise is a misuse/misunderstanding of the stat.

BNM

This is one instance where I think the +/- actually does reflect Nurkic's impact on the game. Generally it's not something that I look at, but it was clear that when Nurk was in the Jazz had trouble scoring, and when Nurk was out they didn't. Nurk's impact was felt immediately - we were down 10ish, Nurk entered the game and Utah didn't score until we evened the game up. Every time he entered the game this happened. Even if he wasn't blocking shots, he was causing misses in the paint just by being there. So unless you want to attribute the improved defense to Pat, I think Nurk's +/- really does tell a pretty reliable tale of his impact on the game.

 

[blue9]

Anyone else reminded of Duckworth when watching Nurkic?

Yup - I said as much to my buddy last night. Oddly nimble for their huge bodies, good hands. Looks like Nurk has more range, which made me say he reminds me of a mix between Duck and Sabas! Of course the E.Euro connection helps with the Sabas comp...and it might also be some projection because I so badly want us to have another Sabas-like player.

 

[HomerLovesKoolAid]

Dame/CJ/Turner/Aminu/Nurkic is a good team

Probably, but Dame and CJ really need to do better staying in front of their man on D. The new back line will help but they need a better effort individually.

 

[BBert]

This stat does not mean what you think it means. Anyone who uses a single game +/- to compare two players either doesn't understand what the stat means, has a specific agenda, or most often, both.

Ed Davis was -36 tonight. So, does that "prove" he's even worse than Meyers?

Hell no it doesn't. I get that everyone hates Meyers, thinks he sucks and is excited about Nurkic, but using this stat, in this way, is not valid.

+/- is not an individual stat, especially for a one game sample size. It is highly dependent on the other 9 players on the court. If one, or more, of your teammates has a bad shooting night, or plays shitty defense, it negatively impacts your +/-, even if you're ballin' your ass off. The reverse is also true. If one of your teammates comes out and lights it up and goes 18-22, you're going to have a damn fine +/- for that game, even if you individually went 0-4 with 1 point and 2 rebounds in 36 minutes. Likewise, it is dependent on the quality of the opposition's play. If a player on the other team is lighting up one of your teammates, your +/- suffers through no fault of your own.

So, you have to ask yourself, why did both Meyers and Ed have such a low +/- tonight. In a nut shell, they both started and were both in at the start of the second half, when their teammates couldn't make a shot. Just go back and look at the first 7 minutes of the game, Dame and C.J. were a combined 0-9 from the field and Portland was down 18-8. Meyers and Ed actually played well during that stretch, but they both get stuck with -10 in the +/- column for those 7 minutes.

I'm not saying Meyers doesn't suck Nor, am I saying, Nurkic isn't better. What I am saying is using a single game sample of +/- to prove either premise is a misuse/misunderstanding of the stat.

BNM

Thank you.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

It's stupid.

And don't forget the wisdom of limiting Harkless to only 5 shots, afterall he only made 3.

 

[BoBoBREWSKI]

Leonard - 23 min - 1 rebound
Davis - 19 min - 5 rebounds
Harkless - 25 min - 4 rebounds
Vonleh- 24 min - 7 rebounds
Nurkic - 21 min - 7 rebounds
Connaughton - 20 min - 7 rebounds
Napier played only 12 minutes and had 1 rebound! Same as Meyers. That's pathetic.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

What's weird is that Ed Davis had an even worse - in fewer minutes. What happened to HIM?

 

[riverman]

What's weird is that Ed Davis had an even worse - in fewer minutes. What happened to HIM?

As good as Ed can be...he can't guard Gobert

 

[Boob-No-More]

What's weird is that Ed Davis had an even worse - in fewer minutes. What happened to HIM?

It's not weird at all, for anyone who has a basic grasp of how the +/- stat works. Like Meyers Leonard, Ed was a victim of his teammates poor shooting when he was in the game. Was it his fault, that Dame and C.J, were a combined 0-9 over the first 7 minutes of the game? Meyers and Ed actually played decent to start the game, but they get stuck with a shitty +/- because everyone else was stone cold to start the game. Over the first 7 minutes of the game, Meyers and Ed were a combined 3-5 (2-2 from 3-point range) for 8 points. Everybody else was 0-9 with ZERO points. Meyers also had 2 BLKs and Ed 3 REB in that 7-minute span.

Yeah, I know Meyers sucks, but I'm also smart enough to know that single game +/- when used the way it's being used in this thread is complete bullshit. Unless, we can all agree that Pat Connaughton (+6) is better than C.J. (-15) and should be starting in his place.

Make all the Meyers sucks/Nurkic is god threads you want. I don't disagree with that premise. I disagree with the misuse/misunderstanding of the single game +/- stat.

BNM

 

[BlayZa]

Read the title of the thread. It's "Stat of the Night", not Stat of the Season, not Stat of the Last Four and a Half Years. This thread is about this specific 1 game sample.

BNM

huh

he sucked in this game and just about every other game, take 1 game - take 4.5yrs, it dont matter, the facts are still the same.

 

[Boob-No-More]

huh

he sucked in this game and just about every other game, take 1 game - take 4.5yrs, it dont matter, the facts are still the same.

You completely missed my point. I am not arguing that Meyers didn't suck last night, or that he hasn't sucked in the past. My point, is it is invalid to use a single game +/- to "prove" one player is better than another - and that's what the OP attempted to do in creating this thread.

BNM