Swani-gawd

[SIeepwalker]

I really hope Stotts start integrading a five man rotation.
Dame/CJ/Harkkless/Vonleh/Nurk as our starters and they all come off together. This will give more time for Napier.
Napier/Turner/Aminu/Davis(Swannigan)/Leonard(Collins) with PattyC and Layman to use situationally. Only if Swannigan makes big leaps, should we mess with the starting rotation

That's terrible imo

That second unit has allot of flexibility defensively

Yes, Leonard can either look lost while not playing any helpside defense or look lost while being dunked on. Lots of possibilities

 

[Boob-No-More]

I don't think any coach literally subs all five starters in and out together throughout the game. The closest is probably Doc Rivers with the Clippers, who often subbed all three of his stars (Paul/Griffin/Jordan) out together, because he felt they played best together. That led to his team going through hellacious droughts, especially since his benches have been pretty weak.

Agreed. There are reasons why NBA teams favor staggered substitutions over hockey style line substitutions. It permits them to have 2 or 3 of their best 5 players on the court at all times. Unless you can convince every other team in the league to adopt a similar strategy, you are going to have 5 bench guys playing against 2 or 3 of your opponent's best players, who will totally exploit the situation.

BNM

 

[Orion Bailey]

That's terrible imo



Yes, Leonard can either look lost while not playing any helpside defense or look lost while being dunked on. Lots of possibilities

Terrible? Because really, minus Crabbe thats the lineup that went 15-6 was it?
Terrible? What other options do we have really? Those are the lineups. how they are subbed in and out wont change the terrible... so how do you come to that conclusion?

 

[Orion Bailey]

I don't think any coach literally subs all five starters in and out together throughout the game. The closest is probably Doc Rivers with the Clippers, who often subbed all three of his stars (Paul/Griffin/Jordan) out together, because he felt they played best together. That led to his team going through hellacious droughts, especially since his benches have been pretty weak.

Agreed. There are reasons why NBA teams favor staggered substitutions over hockey style line substitutions. It permits them to have 2 or 3 of their best 5 players on the court at all times. Unless you can convince every other team in the league to adopt a similar strategy, you are going to have 5 bench guys playing against 2 or 3 of your opponent's best players, who will totally exploit the situation.

BNM

I swear I beleive I recall the Jordan bulls doing this and our Drexler Blazers. But Ive been searching, I cant find anything that looks like it would give any info on such things. I can find roster lineups and what not, but not subbing info.

I seem to recall even watrching a couple of highlights recently where you cna see all five bulls coming up off the bench to return to the game.
Kerr/Jordan/Pippen/Rodman/Longley?

 

[Minstrel]

I seem to recall even watrching a couple of highlights recently where you cna see all five bulls coming up off the bench to return to the game.
Kerr/Jordan/Pippen/Rodman/Longley?

Kerr wasn't the starting guard opposite Jordan, Ron Harper was.

The fact that we know Jordan passed to Kerr for a game-winning shot in a Finals game shows that starters and reserves did get mixed. To be fair, that's an end game situation where Kerr was most useful but my recollection of Bulls game was that Pippen and Jordan, individually and together, played plenty of time with reserves like Kerr, Kukoc and others.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I swear I beleive I recall the Jordan bulls doing this and our Drexler Blazers. But Ive been searching, I cant find anything that looks like it would give any info on such things. I can find roster lineups and what not, but not subbing info.

I seem to recall even watrching a couple of highlights recently where you cna see all five bulls coming up off the bench to return to the game.
Kerr/Jordan/Pippen/Rodman/Longley?

Are you sure that wasn't the players returning to the court in unison after a time out/commercial break?

Or, perhaps it was just Phil playing his pseudo-intellectual mind games by yanking all five starters if they weren't playing well. Pop has done that on occasion, bench all five starters to send a message, but I don't recall any team doing it on a regular basis, as part of their standard rotation.

BNM

 

[Orion Bailey]

Kerr wasn't the starting guard opposite Jordan, Ron Harper was.

The fact that we know Jordan passed to Kerr for a game-winning shot in a Finals game shows that starters and reserves did get mixed. To be fair, that's an end game situation where Kerr was most useful but my recollection of Bulls game was that Pippen and Jordan, individually and together, played plenty of time with reserves like Kerr, Kukoc and others.

Thats right Harper.

But wait, I'm not saying don't ever mix them up. Im just saying id like to see the starters come off the floor together. And Mainly this is so Dame and CJ are together. I do not believe we need CJ playing with the second unit as much as we had him doing so last year.
Maybe I am wrong.

I sure thought we did the same thing with Porter/Drexler/Kersey/Buck and Duck.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Are you sure that wasn't the players returning to the court in unison after a time out/commercial break?

Or, perhaps it was just Phil playing his pseudo-intellectual mind games by yanking all five starters if they weren't playing well. Pop has done that on occasion, bench all five starters to send a message, but I don't recall any team doing it on a regular basis, as part of their standard rotation.

BNM

Could be for sure.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I swear I beleive I recall the Jordan bulls doing this and our Drexler Blazers. But Ive been searching, I cant find anything that looks like it would give any info on such things. I can find roster lineups and what not, but not subbing info.

You can go back and look at box scores from that period. It won't tell you exactly who entered the game when but if your theory is correct, shouldn't all the starter play approximately the same number of minutes and then the top 5 bench guys all also play equal minutes? Any game where only 9 players played would make such wholesale substitutions impossible for that game.

I'm not that interested in combing through ancient box scores, but the first pace I'd look is that 1990-91 squad that won 63 games. That was the deepest team of that era. That year all 5 starters averaged between 31.0 and 34.8 MPG, but Clyde averaged almost 2 more MPG than any of the other starters.

Where your theory seems to break down is the playing time of the bench. Uncle Cliffy and Danny Ainge averaged 23.7 and 21.4 MPG, which meant both players spent significant time playing with the starters. Mark Bryant was 8th in minutes at 14.7, followed by Walter Davis (post Drazen trade) at 13.7 and Danny Young at 12.0. Due to the disparity in minutes among the bench players and the fact that Cliff and Danny both played significant minutes with the starter, if Rick was doing whole line substitutions, if would have been the exception rather than the norm.

In any case, even if that did happen 27 years ago, it has little bearing on NBA substitution patterns in 2017-18. NBA teams all stagger their substitutions so that, other than garbage time, they almost always have at least two, and usually three starters on the floor. The NBA is a game of runs and you're less likely to be the victim of a 21-0 or 23-2 run if you have at least 2 or 3 of your starters on the floor at all times.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

But wait, I'm not saying don't ever mix them up. Im just saying id like to see the starters come off the floor together. And Mainly this is so Dame and CJ are together. I do not believe we need CJ playing with the second unit as much as we had him doing so last year.
Maybe I am wrong.

Even with C.J., who is great at creating his own shot, our second unit has struggled to score for as long as I can remember. Right now, we basically have the same bench we had last year, minus Crabbe, our leading bench scorer. If the second unit struggled with both C.J. and Crabbe out there, how are they going to create offense without either om the floor?

BNM

 

[Orion Bailey]

Even with C.J., who is great at creating his own shot, our second unit has struggled to score for as long as I can remember. Right now, we basically have the same bench we had last year, minus Crabbe, our leading bench scorer. If the second unit struggled with both C.J. and Crabbe out there, how are they going to create offense without either om the floor?

BNM

I said in another post, they don't need to. If we use the starting five as assembled, they should be one of the most potent offenses in the league. The focus of the bench should be to be stoppers. Prevent the other bench from catching the score back up after our starters got us a lead.
I hear what you are saying and valid points about cliff and Ainge, I do remember them playing with the starters alot.
If that isnt enough, then lets go get a 3 and D guy for the bench with our TPE.
I'm not as concerned about the second unit scoring as much as I am concerned that they need to take the next step to become good defenders, which I think is more important of the two from our bench.
We also didn't have Nurk for much of the season last year and I think he will help imrpv most others ability to score.

But, You win... again.. flippin know it all. Your memory is better than mine with regards to the rotations. I smoke much pot.

Okay. Eclipse is starting, heading out to the backyard for a coffer and a lil green and gonna enjoy this. I have my camcorder set up to be offset from the sun a bit to see how it turns out.
Hope I don't fry my lens!@

 

[riverman]

Collins just looks like the best defensive option we've got at PF.

disagree....both Chief and Vonleh and probably Ed Davis are better defenders than Collins right now even though Collins can become a very good defender.....I think he could eventually test them but I don't see it this season at all. When Collins defends Kevin Durant the way Chief or Noah do.....I'll reconsider

 

[Blazer4ever]

I would start Dame, CJ, Turner, Swanigan, Nurkic with the only backup guard being Napier, Harkless as the backup SF, Leonard as backup PF and Zachollins as the backup C. Role players would be Pat, Vonleh and Aminu

 

[dviss1]

Swanigan should be the starting PF, from day one as far as I'm concerned, he's that good

We've only seen him in SL. Remember how Vonleh look in SL?

 

[dviss1]

I would start Dame, CJ, Turner, Swanigan, Nurkic with the only backup guard being Napier, Harkless as the backup SF, Leonard as backup PF and Zachollins as the backup C. Role players would be Pat, Vonleh and Aminu

Yeah, no. Hark should start.

 

[riverman]

Yeah, no. Hark should start.

I'd start Turner and have Mo and Chief come off the bench together...they play better together in my view...I start ET and Noah

 

[dviss1]

I'd start Turner and have Mo and Chief come off the bench together...they play better together in my view...I start ET and Noah

Mo doesn't play as well off the bench and he fits better with Nurk.

 

[riverman]

Mo doesn't play as well off the bench and he fits better with Nurk.

Mo needs to play better off the bench then.... he'll score more off the bench than with the starters and ET shores up the defense on the perimeter

 

[andalusian]

I'd start Turner and have Mo and Chief come off the bench together...they play better together in my view...I start ET and Noah

Moe and Aminu are not great ball handlers - I think it makes more sense to have ET play with one of them - so we have more ball-handling with a larger forward like guy

 

[Pinwheel1]

Mo doesn't play as well off the bench and he fits better with Nurk.

I am guessing they all fit better with Nurk.
Actually they probably all fit better with Dame and CJ too. ET played his best ball when he started with Dame and CJ.

 

[riverman]

Moe and Aminu are not great ball handlers - I think it makes more sense to have ET play with one of them - so we have more ball-handling with a larger forward like guy

Hopefully Napier owns the ball handling duties off the bench with them

 

[Rastapopoulos]

With Crabbe gone, Turner will see most his minutes at the 2 and Aminu will move back to the 3

I don't think so. Al-Farouq just doesn't have the ball skills of a 3.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

We've only seen him in SL. Remember how Vonleh look in SL?

Pretty Meh.
A better comp might be Z-Bo, who was incredible in SL but barely played as a rookie. But then he did have a few good players ahead of him.

 

[dviss1]

Pretty Meh.
A better comp might be Z-Bo, who was incredible in SL but barely played as a rookie. But then he did have a few good players ahead of him.

Green font? Vonleh killed in SL.

 

[dviss1]

Vonleh doesn't have nearly the upside, he's a solid backup4 but not on Swanigan's level

Cause you say so?

 

[dviss1]

I don't see why Al-Farouq isn't still the starter.

Really? It's pretty simple. Rebounding.

 

[JDC]

McCollum--Turner--Layman--Aminu--Swanigan would be an interesting bench unit imo. Could offer enough shooting to offset Turner plus give Swanigan/Turner room in the mid/low post if he they have a favorable matchup.

As far as the starting lineup goes, Hakless is the hands down starter at SF for me minus a considerable shooting regression (which is not unlikely btw).

I understand Turner's value as a versatile POA defender, but if he's playing alongside both Lillard and McCollum, he's relegated to guarding 3's other than in late clock switch situations. And as much as I don't like him as a pnr ball handler, he still provides more value in those situations that as a spot up shooter. He's also less likely to be given post/iso scoring opportunities which is where he's best used offensively (the lesser of all evils might be a more apt description for this haha).

And as far as the 5th starter goes, I expect it to be a revolving door all year. My hope is Collins ultimately proves competent enough as a shooter and pnr defender to be that guy, but we'll see how things shake out.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I'd start Turner and have Mo and Chief come off the bench together...they play better together in my view...I start ET and Noah

So you are basically relying on Napier alone to handle the ball in the second unit? Turner is our biggest need on the bench right now in my opinion.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Really? It's pretty simple. Rebounding.

Surely you of all people know that Nurk will be getting ALL the rebounds.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Green font? Vonleh killed in SL.

12.0 ppg, 8.8 rpg, .463 FG% in 31.5 mpg.

He killed it in one fourth quarter against the PHO teenagers, but other than that, Swanigan had a much better summer league.

BNM