Teams Blake would start for

[The_Lillard_King]

let me clarify

The point of my OP was that Blake isn't good and that he has been riding the coattails of better players. Meaning, he has played next to guys like Dixon, Roy, and Iverson. These players cover for his lacking in the point guard department. If Blake was starting next to Martell Webster, he would look even worse then he does now.

With that said, he hasn't really had much of a choice about who he has played with. He was drafted by Washington, so he played with Dixon on the Wizards. He followed Dixon here, probably because he was comfortable playing next to Juan.

He was traded to Milwaukee, and then Denver, so he didn't get to choose to play next to Iverson. I think he did choose to play next to Roy though.

In summation, I'm saying that Blake isn't good enough to play in the NBA unless he's next to a talented scoring, creating, ball dominating guard. Thus, the "riding the coattails" comment.

Thanks . . . I get it.

Maybe the little difference we have is I still think you need to be an NBA talent to do what Blake does (even according to what you think he does). There are a lot of gurds in the developmental league that wish it was that easy as well. My point is Blake must be doing something more than handing the ball off if he has survived in the league this long and making multi-millions each year. But I respect your take on Blake.

 

[Natebishop3]

Thanks . . . I get it.

Maybe the little difference we have is I still think you need to be an NBA talent to do what Blake does (even according to what you think he does). There are a lot of gurds in the developmental league that wish it was that easy as well. My point is Blake must be doing something more than handing the ball off if he has survived in the league this long and making multi-millions each year. But I respect your take on Blake.

He's a somewhat decent three point shooter. That's about it. Would you call him a good defender? A good slasher/finisher? How about a good passer? He doesn't do anything else well. He's a role player. He's a guy who isn't going to fuck up your chemistry. He does what is asked of him. He's a glue guy. Teams need guys like that, but not as their starting point guard.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Unless you are a lock down defender on the wing, it just seems awfully hard to justify starting Steve Blake when he's posted a PER less than 10 ... yes I realize that PER is not perfect and it doesn't capture defense, but it does a pretty good job of capturing offense and right now that is below replacement level. Hell, all I want to see is Blake start to play efficiently and stop putting up these 0-fer nights. A Steve Blake not hitting open shots is not creating any space for Brandon and that's a problem.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

He's a somewhat decent three point shooter. That's about it. Would you call him a good defender? A good slasher/finisher? How about a good passer? He doesn't do anything else well. He's a role player. He's a guy who isn't going to fuck up your chemistry. He does what is asked of him. He's a glue guy. Teams need guys like that, but not as their starting point guard.

I'm not here to make Blake out something that he isn't . . . so pointing out Blake's stregths is not something I really want to battle on.

But read your own post. You said decent 3 point shooter and does nothing else well. Then in the same psot you say he is a glue guy and a role player, I agree and that is what he does well and taht is what has made him stick in the league. He is a good team player, with decent NBA skills . . . those players are needed.

And if Roy plays better with Blake, than Blake should start. This is more our star player figuring out how to be effective with Miller on the court., If Roy can adjust, than this debate will be over, IMO.

 

[hasoos]

The elephant in the room is why isn't Rudy or Bayless getting minutes at that position? Both of them are shooting way better, and both of them are better defenders on PG type players than Blake. That is what pisses me off. Nate says that play will determine who plays. Then a guy goes out, and stinks it up for weeks on end, and the guys waiting in the wings still can't get any run. Meanwhile, I see other teams out there playing rookies who are out performing Blake nightly, and guys who were drafted last year, who are out performing him nightly.

Its like fucking groundhog day. Every day I wake up to the same fucking nightmare for the Blazer team. No matter what I do, the next day it is the same bullshit because the team refuses to learn from history.

 

[Nikolokolus]

The elephant in the room is why isn't Rudy or Bayless getting minutes at that position? Both of them are shooting way better, and both of them are better defenders on PG type players than Blake. That is what pisses me off. Nate says that play will determine who plays. Then a guy goes out, and stinks it up for weeks on end, and the guys waiting in the wings still can't get any run. Meanwhile, I see other teams out there playing rookies who are out performing Blake nightly, and guys who were drafted last year, who are out performing him nightly.

Its like fucking groundhog day. Every day I wake up to the same fucking nightmare for the Blazer team. No matter what I do, the next day it is the same bullshit because the team refuses to learn from history.

With Bayless I tend to think Nate prefers not to use him for a couple of reasons. 1) he fouls a lot and still hasn't mastered the art of playing defense with his feet and 2) his style of basketball is to go one on one and attack the rim ... which is admirable, but for a team already struggling to find touches for Oden and Brandon struggling with reduced touches I'd be a little worried about his presence on the court being even more disruptive (and that's not a dig on Bayless, I just don't think he's very well suited to playing off the ball yet). Rudy on the other hand has been so hot or cold (kind of like Martell) that I don't think Nate fully trusts him out on the floor, and frankly his ball-handling makes it nearly impossible to play him at the point, plus his ability to defend 1s just isn't really there (and while he is generating steals it's not the same as playing good team defense).

 

[hasoos]

With Bayless I tend to think Nate prefers not to use him for a couple of reasons. 1) he fouls a lot and still hasn't mastered the art of playing defense with his feet and 2) his style of basketball is to go one on one and attack the rim ... which is admirable, but for a team already struggling to find touches for Oden and Brandon struggling with reduced touches I'd be a little worried about his presence on the court being even more disruptive (and that's not a dig on Bayless, I just don't think he's very well suited to playing off the ball yet). Rudy on the other hand has been so hot or cold (kind of like Martell) that I don't think Nate fully trusts him out on the floor, and frankly his ball-handling makes it nearly impossible to play him at the point, plus his ability to defend 1s just isn't really there (and while he is generating steals it's not the same as playing good team defense).

1. His worst defense is better than Blakes.
2. His agressiveness is why he picks up fouls. Good player push the limit, find out what they can get away with, and then back off after they figure out what the refs are calling. Every ref crew is different.
3. The team needs more attacking the rim. We need more points in the paint. We need less outside shooting.
4. Bayless can finish on the break. Blake cannot.

All of the same can be said about Rudy, Rudy has been in foul trouble too. But Rudy it goes even further. On top of all the other things listed above:

1. Rudy is a great shooter from the outside.
2. Rudy is great off the ball.
3. Rudy can also handle the ball on the break better than Blake (decision making).


Both players are shooting way better than Blake. Bayless is at .487. If he got the number of minutes Blake got, he would average 16 pts and 4 assist per game.

 

[Nikolokolus]

1. His worst defense is better than Blakes.
2. His agressiveness is why he picks up fouls. Good player push the limit, find out what they can get away with, and then back off after they figure out what the refs are calling. Every ref crew is different.
3. The team needs more attacking the rim. We need more points in the paint. We need less outside shooting.
4. Bayless can finish on the break. Blake cannot.

All of the same can be said about Rudy, Rudy has been in foul trouble too. But Rudy it goes even further. On top of all the other things listed above:

1. Rudy is a great shooter from the outside.
2. Rudy is great off the ball.
3. Rudy can also handle the ball on the break better than Blake (decision making).


Both players are shooting way better than Blake. Bayless is at .487. If he got the number of minutes Blake got, he would average 16 pts and 4 assist per game.

I think you misunderstand. I like both players as individual talents (way more than I like Blake), I'm just not so sure they are great complimentary players for this current team as constructed -- that is to say it's been made abundantly clear that Brandon, LaMarcus and Greg are 'THE' core, do Rudy and Bayless compliment those guys and the way they like to play? I'm not so sure. But yeah, I'd probably at least give both of them a chance to see what they could do over Stevie Wonder.

 

[BBert]

Its like fucking groundhog day. Every day I wake up to the same fucking nightmare for the Blazer team. No matter what I do, the next day it is the same bullshit because NATE refuses to learn from history.

You know, I hate it when people do that "here, I fixed that for 'ya" thing...so let's say I 'fixed' that for me.

 

[oldmangrouch]

The elephant in the room is why isn't Rudy or Bayless getting minutes at that position? Both of them are shooting way better, and both of them are better defenders on PG type players than Blake. That is what pisses me off. Nate says that play will determine who plays. Then a guy goes out, and stinks it up for weeks on end, and the guys waiting in the wings still can't get any run. Meanwhile, I see other teams out there playing rookies who are out performing Blake nightly, and guys who were drafted last year, who are out performing him nightly.

Its like fucking groundhog day. Every day I wake up to the same fucking nightmare for the Blazer team. No matter what I do, the next day it is the same bullshit because the team refuses to learn from history.

If it's any consolation, you aren't alone. Five games into the season, I told my wife: "I know how this movie ends - the iceberg wins." Everytime the Blazers are on the cusp of success, they find a way to fall short.

 

[Nikolokolus]

If it's any consolation, you aren't alone. Five games into the season, I told my wife: "I know how this movie ends - the iceberg wins." Everytime the Blazers are on the cusp of success, they find a way to fall short.

I kind of feel the same way, but then again I'm an Oregon State fan, so my expectations are naturally conditioned to look for icebergs.

 

[hasoos]

I kind of feel the same way, but then again I'm an Oregon State fan, so my expectations are naturally conditioned to look for icebergs.

You know thats funny, when I was growing up, neither the Ducks or the Beavers won jack squat except for the Beavers basketball team. I went to U of O so I root for them when they play each other, but pretty much because of all of those years of misery, I root for the Oregon teams (both of them) in all other situations because of the bitchslappin we took for all those years. Last night was awesome, because I think for the first time, both Oregon teams got national exposure on ESPN to show that they can ball. I think it is a good sign for years to come.

 

[LittleAlex]

I think you misunderstand. I like both players as individual talents (way more than I like Blake), I'm just not so sure they are great complimentary players for this current team as constructed -- that is to say it's been made abundantly clear that Brandon, LaMarcus and Greg are 'THE' core, do Rudy and Bayless compliment those guys and the way they like to play? I'm not so sure. But yeah, I'd probably at least give both of them a chance to see what they could do over Stevie Wonder.

I am not sure about Bayless either, but I am pretty sure Rudy fits with those guys very well.

Hits 3's on outlet passes: Check
Moves well without the basketball: Check
Can make a pass into the post: Check
Willing to hand the ball to Roy in the half-court: Check.

Really I don't know what Rudy does that would make him even somewhat incompatable with the Roy, LMA and Oden.

 

[Natebishop3]

I am not sure about Bayless either, but I am pretty sure Rudy fits with those guys very well.

Hits 3's on outlet passes: Check
Moves well without the basketball: Check
Can make a pass into the post: Check
Willing to hand the ball to Roy in the half-court: Check.

Really I don't know what Rudy does that would make him even somewhat incompatable with the Roy, LMA and Oden.

He's too pretty so he's taking the spotlight away from Roy

 

[Boob-No-More]

I coach a 9th grade boys team that Blake would look really good on. I would start him for sure.

He could also start on my rec league team - The Earthbound Misfits.

BNM

 

[Minstrel]

I am not sure about Bayless either, but I am pretty sure Rudy fits with those guys very well.

Hits 3's on outlet passes: Check
Moves well without the basketball: Check
Can make a pass into the post: Check
Willing to hand the ball to Roy in the half-court: Check.

Really I don't know what Rudy does that would make him even somewhat incompatable with the Roy, LMA and Oden.

Offensively, nothing. My only issue with Fernandez playing with Roy is that he has no defensive position other than shooting guard. Which either means forcing him to defend someone he can't (a point guard or small forward) or pushing Roy to defend small forwards, something he apparently has troubles with that affect his offense.

Bayless can defend point guards. His offensive characteristics are a fine mix with the others if he's consistently knocking down open shots (a skill he's shown throughout his basketball career except last year). He can swing the ball around the perimeter like Blake does and he can get to the hoop and draw fouls like Miller does. I don't know very much about his post-entry ability, but he worked out all off-season with Oden, so there's some reason to hope that they're comfortable together.

I am willing to see how a Miller/Rudy/Roy perimeter works. That, at least, makes some sense where a Miller/Blake/Roy perimeter didn't. But I hope to see a Miller/Roy/Webster perimeter soon and I wouldn't mind seeing a Bayless/Roy/Webster perimeter at times.

 

[rocketeer]

So there you go, including here, he could start in one place temporarily with several maybes, basically our pg situation sucks, and it could be easily fixed with a change of starter.

what would it look like if you made a thread asking how many teams keith bogans(starting ahead of manu) would start for? or rodrique beaubois(starting over jason terry)? or wesley matthews(starting over kirilenko)?

the problem with blake this season isn't that he's starting but that he's playing too many minutes(with the blazers roster he should be closer to 20 per game than 30 per game) and he just hasn't been playing as well as he did in the past. if he can't get back to the level he was at last season, then benching him definitely makes sense.

 

[rocketeer]

I am willing to see how a Miller/Rudy/Roy perimeter works. That, at least, makes some sense where a Miller/Blake/Roy perimeter didn't. But I hope to see a Miller/Roy/Webster perimeter soon and I wouldn't mind seeing a Bayless/Roy/Webster perimeter at times.

to be honest, i wouldn't mind seeing a bayless/roy/webster/aldridge/oden starting lineup. and if roy doesn't start attacking the basket more, i want to see it.

 

[santeesioux]

what would it look like if you made a thread asking how many teams keith bogans(starting ahead of manu) would start for? or rodrique beaubois(starting over jason terry)? or wesley matthews(starting over kirilenko)?

the problem with blake this season isn't that he's starting but that he's playing too many minutes(with the blazers roster he should be closer to 20 per game than 30 per game) and he just hasn't been playing as well as he did in the past. if he can't get back to the level he was at last season, then benching him definitely makes sense.

Well he's obviously not on the same level he was on last year, and with a clear upgrade behind him, it only makes sense to bench him.

 

[rocketeer]

Well he's obviously not on the same level he was on last year, and with a clear upgrade behind him, it only makes sense to bench him.

no, there being a "clear upgrade" behind him does not mean it is correct to take the starting job away from him. there being a better player behind him at his position means that he should not be playing the majority of the minutes at that position.

unless you're saying that the spurs are making a mistake starting bogans over manu, the mavs are making a mistake starting beaubois over terry, and the jazz are making a mistake starting matthews over kirilenko. and in that case, you're simply wrong.

the blazer can be fine with blake starting. "starting" doesn't mean playing the most minutes. batum didn't play the most last year at small forward even though he started. if "starting" blake but only having him play 20 minutes per game gets roy to be more comfortable, attack the basket more, and in general just play better basketball then that is what should happen. if for whatever reason roy isn't going to do that anyway then they should go ahead and give blake(with how he's played thus far this season) a seat on the bench but i think bayless should be the guy inserted who actually will aggressively attack the basket.

 

[Blazer_Hippie]

Atlanta Dream - NO

Chicago Sky - NO

Connecticut Sun - NO

Indiana Fever - NO

New York Liberty - NO

Washington Mystics - NO

Los Angeles Sparks - NO

Minnesota Lynx - NO

Phoenix Mercury - NO

Sacramento Monarchs - NO

San Antonio Silver Stars - NO

Seattle Storm - NO


j/k - I like Blake and he'd probably start for AT LEAST 1/2 of these teams...

 

[Sedatedfork]

Team USA -- Yes. Nate is an assistant coach. I imagine he would Tanya Harding the other coaches just to get Blake to start.

 

[BrianFromWA]

no, there being a "clear upgrade" behind him does not mean it is correct to take the starting job away from him. there being a better player behind him at his position means that he should not be playing the majority of the minutes at that position.

Blake 29mpg. Miller 26mpg.

unless you're saying that the spurs are making a mistake starting bogans over manu, the mavs are making a mistake starting beaubois over terry, and the jazz are making a mistake starting matthews over kirilenko. and in that case, you're simply wrong.

Blake 29mpg. Beaubois 13mpg. Bogans 18mpg. Mathews is a 6'5 Guard...Kirileno is a 6'9 forward. But he's only getting 23mpg. And I'll let you look up the PERs of those 3 you brought up compared to Blake's.

the blazer can be fine with blake starting.

But there's a high likelihood that they're "good" or "Great" when he's not.

 

[Public Defender]

Unbelievable how crappy Steve Blake got, after being the starting point guard on a team that managed homecourt advantage in the first round of last year's playoffs. I think the Derek Fisher example is appropriate - or Avery Johnson, for that matter. How many other teams in the NBA would they have started on, in the years that they were leading their teams deep into the playoffs? Blake doesn't need to be the flashiest point guard in the league - he just needs to run an efficient offense and hold his own on defense.

Something isn't working, and you can certainly fault Blake for some of that, but I put more of the blame on Nate's inability to integrate new players, and the difficulty everyone is having in adjusting to one another (Blake included).

 

[BrianFromWA]

Does Blake need a manual and powerpoint training on how to make open 3's this year while Miller's on the bench?

Does he need help understanding how to pass off to Roy, or do a pick and pop with LMA, with Miller sitting on the bench?

They're in the game about 10mpg together. What makes Blake so much crappier this year in the other 19 he's playing?

I'm starting to get tired of this "integration and adjustment" excuse. How are the Spurs or Magic "adjusting" to R-Jeff or VC ?

 

[oldmangrouch]

Does Blake need a manual and powerpoint training on how to make open 3's this year while Miller's on the bench?

Does he need help understanding how to pass off to Roy, or do a pick and pop with LMA, with Miller sitting on the bench?

They're in the game about 10mpg together. What makes Blake so much crappier this year in the other 19 he's playing?

I'm starting to get tired of this "integration and adjustment" excuse. How are the Spurs or Magic "adjusting" to R-Jeff or VC ?

 

[rocketeer]

Blake 29mpg. Miller 26mpg.

the problem with blake this season isn't that he's starting but that he's playing too many minutes(with the blazers roster he should be closer to 20 per game than 30 per game) and he just hasn't been playing as well as he did in the past. if he can't get back to the level he was at last season, then benching him definitely makes sense.

Blake 29mpg. Beaubois 13mpg. Bogans 18mpg. Mathews is a 6'5 Guard...Kirileno is a 6'9 forward. But he's only getting 23mpg. And I'll let you look up the PERs of those 3 you brought up compared to Blake's.

blake's PER is right in line with beaubois, bogans, and matthews(which is a bad thing). those are the guys i was "comparing" blake to. miller would be the one getting the comparison to manu, terry, and kirilenko even though he's not as good as those 3 players.

and yes, kirilenko is much taller than matthews. matthews is still starting over kirilenko. they put him in the starting lineup to bring kirilenko off the bench.

But there's a high likelihood that they're "good" or "Great" when he's not.

i don't agree with that statement. miller is no longer as overrated as he was in the offseason, but in general people here still rate him higher than they should. him starting or not is basically irrelevant to the blazers success unless inserting him in the starting lineup causes roy to start playing at the level he did last year.

 

[Nikolokolus]

blake's PER is right in line with beaubois, bogans, and matthews(which is a bad thing). those are the guys i was "comparing" blake to. miller would be the one getting the comparison to manu, terry, and kirilenko even though he's not as good as those 3 players.

and yes, kirilenko is much taller than matthews. matthews is still starting over kirilenko. they put him in the starting lineup to bring kirilenko off the bench.

Fine, so they are all having poor offensive seasons as far as efficiency goes, but I think you are neglecting a major difference between all three of those players you mention and the role they play compared to Blake. In Beaubois' case, I'm not 100% certain, but I suspect with his quickness and freakish wingspan he's being used at least part of the time as a defensive stopper on the perimeter, Bogans is primarily a defensive player as is Kirilenko. If Steve was a lockdown perimeter guy it'd be a lot easier to forgive the piss poor shooting numbers, but instead he's really nothing but a floor spacer who plays "OK" defense. If this was the Blake of last year that hit 42% of his threes and 43% from the floor I'd have no beef with him starting and logging 30 minutes a game, instead ... yeesh!

 

[Public Defender]

They're in the game about 10mpg together. What makes Blake so much crappier this year in the other 19 he's playing?

I'm starting to get tired of this "integration and adjustment" excuse. How are the Spurs or Magic "adjusting" to R-Jeff or VC ?

I'm tired of the "integration and adjustment" excuse, too - unfortunately, it's the root of the problem. The situations in San Antonio and Orlando are entirely different because Jefferson and Carter have well-defined roles within an established system. The Blazers are attempting to re-define how they run the offense, by emphasizing an inside post player other than Aldridge. So, everything Aldridge has been told the last two years ("play close to the basket, man!") and everything Roy has been told the last two years ("run pick and roll" or "attack your man and get to the rim") have all of a sudden gotten a whole lot harder to accomplish than was true last season.

I don't like what's happening, and I feel like the Blazers should have adjusted and integrated by now. Problem is, they haven't, and going around blaming role players like Steve Blake is missing the bigger picture. Is Blake playing worse than last season? Yes. But so is Roy, so is Aldridge, and by the way, where are Outlaw and Batum, again? And then there's the brand new point guard the Blazers signed... it's a complicated mess, unfortunately.

 

[jlprk]

it's a complicated mess, unfortunately.

In other words, Pritchard hasn't done his job and made consolidaton trades.