OT Texas

[julius]

Forcing your beliefs on others is whats at the heart of the issue. Some people struggle to see the difference between passing a law that outlaws abortion (that's forcing your beliefs on someone else) and passing a law that doesn't outlaw abortions (that's not forcing your beliefs on anyone).

How is it not (you might wonder)?

One is making you do something, the other is giving someone the option to do it or not.

 

[Phatguysrule]

first i heard it. Do your thing.

So many people not wanting to be judged for who they are and what they believe but as so quick to be simultaneously judging you and your beliefs.

Double standards run rampant these days…

lol.

Who else supports voting in people who want government to control the lives of half of the population for months to years because a fairy tale told them they should?

 

[Phatguysrule]

i tend to think of it as everyone has a right to every lane. Because there really arent any lanes. Humans will never stop the competition of thinking themselves better than others. Whether it be in athletics, scholarly accolades, beauty, and unfortunately some include in thier competition race and color.

but people are always going to veer off the lane if we try to have lanes.

I prefer to just accept that not everyone is goign to agree with me, like me or whatever. Its ugly but its been the way of the human race forever and it wont ever change. Its instinctual to compete, be better than the next and with that comes the ugly side.
But freedom is a fickle thing and though it comes with a price, should not be denied.
Pornography is the biproduct of free speech. Etc.
I beleive we are fooling ourselves trying to create some utopian love world.
Believe me, i wish it could be, but observing human behavior on an individual and global level? I dont see it happening. I see the weak getting devoured.

Nobody has the right to dictate somebody else's personal decisions as long as nobody else is being harmed.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Nobody has the right to dictate somebody else's personal decisions as long as nobody else is being harmed.

Playing devils advocate here….A fetus is a living thing, that would fall under “as long as nobody else is being harmed”

So you are pro life?

 

[julius]

Playing devils advocate here….A fetus is a living thing, that would fall under “as long as nobody else is being harmed”

So you are pro life?

thats if you believe it's a "living" thing.

 

[Mediocre Man]

thats if you believe it's a "living" thing.

So if you believe in science. Being pro life or pro choice is a stance, but science says it’s a living thing regardless

 

[julius]

So if you believe in science. Being pro life or pro choice is a stance, but science says it’s a living thing regardless

Science says no such thing.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Playing devils advocate here….A fetus is a living thing, that would fall under “as long as nobody else is being harmed”

So you are pro life?

No it's not. Not until the woman decides it is and starts telling everyone.

There is no impact on society regardless of what happens to that fetus if nobody but the family and ductor know about it.

Unless it's unwanted and forced, in which case it's far more likely to become a criminal, hence having a negative impact on society. Also, the woman is far more likely to die if forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy. Also a negative impact on society. She's also at greater risk of depression. Another negative impact on society.

Society should very clearly make sure she has every opportunity to do what she chooses.

 

[Phatguysrule]

So if you believe in science. Being pro life or pro choice is a stance, but science says it’s a living thing regardless

So is sperm then.

And I'm telling you, if we're counting all of those as murders I've got Ghangis Khan beat by a mile...

 

[Phatguysrule]

She lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. Ezekiel 23:20 NIV

Jesus. Anybody packing like that is obviously a savage who should be hunted down and slain. How could our wives resist the temptation?

Especially with marijuana legalized...

 

[Mediocre Man]

No it's not. Not until the woman decides it is and starts telling everyone.

There is no impact on society regardless of what happens to that fetus if nobody but the family and ductor know about it.

Unless it's unwanted and forced, in which case it's far more likely to become a criminal, hence having a negative impact on society. Also, the woman is far more likely to die if forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy. Also a negative impact on society. She's also at greater risk of depression. Another negative impact on society.

Society should very clearly make sure she has every opportunity to do what she chooses.

This wasn’t the question though

 

[Mediocre Man]

So is sperm then.

And I'm telling you, if we're counting all of those as murders I've got Ghangis Khan beat by a mile...

Yes, sperm is

Again, not crazy, just playing devil’s advocate

 

[Mediocre Man]

Science says no such thing.

It really does. It actually says that, medically, life begins at conception.

 

[Phatguysrule]

This wasn’t the question though

It was. You claimed that since it's alive it's somebody.

I'm saying that's not the case. Tomatoes are alive and they aren't somebody. Cancer cells are alive and they aren't somebody. Sperm are alive and they aren't somebody.

Embryos or fetuses don't become babies unless a woman allows them to. Coat hangers exist. As do pills easily available by mail from other countries. She could even off herself at any time and there goes the whole thing.

It should not legally be considered a baby until she decides it should or until it can be removed and live a long, healthy, and normal life apart from her at somebody else's expense.

If the government wants to give enough incentive for her to choose to let them take the embryo at taxpayer expense instead, I could probably get behind that.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Yes, sperm is

Again, not crazy, just playing devil’s advocate

Yes I agree. Embryos should be classified similar to sperm. If a woman wants it out it should come out.

I hope you're not devils advocating yourself into supporting legislation which makes giving yourself a hand illegal?

 

[Mediocre Man]

It was. You claimed that since it's alive it's somebody.

I'm saying that's not the case. Tomatoes are alive and they aren't somebody. Cancer cells are alive and they aren't somebody. Sperm are alive and they aren't somebody.

Embryos or fetuses don't become babies unless a woman allows them to. Coat hangers exist. As do pills easily available by mail from other countries. She could even off herself at any time and there goes the whole thing.

It should not legally be considered a baby until she decides it should or until it can be removed and live a long, healthy, and normal life apart from her at somebody else's expense.

If the government wants to give enough incentive for her to choose to let them take the embryo at taxpayer expense instead, I could probably get behind that.

My argument was saying it is harming somebody because science says it’s somebody. My argument had nothing to do with women’s rights. Just that technically it is somebody

 

[Mediocre Man]

Yes I agree. Embryos should be classified similar to sperm. If a woman wants it out it should come out.

I hope you're not devils advocating yourself into supporting legislation which makes giving yourself a hand illegal?

I think I’ll be ok

 

[Lanny]

yeah i mean its all situational and how egregious of a grope it is. Glancing touch from a guy deserve a back the fuck off, a full on grope deserves a knockout punch. Lol.

I slugged a guy for mouthing off at my wife. He tried to belittle her because she's Asian. He didn't know I was right behind him help when he said his low down dirty little thing. Guess how long it took me to react? That's right, less than a second. I don't put up with that shit from anyone. At that time I could handle myself. Now, I'm a helpless babe in the woods. Someone would have to back up my angry mouth.

 

[Lanny]

My argument was saying it is harming somebody because science says it’s somebody. My argument had nothing to do with women’s rights. Just that technically it is somebody

Science in the form of the medical community says no such thing until you reach the last trimester. I say it needs to have a functioning brain and a fully functioning nervous system before you can call it someone.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I slugged a guy for mouthing off at my wife. He tried to belittle her because she's Asian. He didn't know I was right behind him help when he said his low down dirty little thing. Guess how long it took me to react? That's right, less than a second. I don't put up with that shit from anyone. At that time I could handle myself. Now, I'm a helpless babe in the woods. Someone would have to back up my angry mouth.

i would.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Science in the form of the medical community says no such thing until you reach the last trimester. I say it needs to have a functioning brain and a fully functioning nervous system before you can call it someone.

Actually, it does

https://www.justthefacts.org/get-the-facts/when-life-begins/


What do the experts say?
"The American College of Pediatricians concurs with the body of scientific evidence that human life begins at conception - fertilization…. Scientific and medical discoveries over the past three decades have only verified and solidified this age-old truth. At the completion of the process of fertilization, the human creature emerges as a whole, genetically distinct, individuated zygotic living human organism, a member of the species homo sapiens, needing only the proper environment in order to grow and develop. The difference between the individual in its adult stage and in its zygotic stage is not one of personhood but of development. The Mission of the American College of Pediatricians is to enable all children to reach their optimal physical and emotional health and well-being from the moment of conception."
When Human Life Begins, American College of Pediatricians, March 2004

"After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being...[this] is no longer a matter of taste or opinion, it is not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence...." - Dr Jerome LeJeune, Professor of Genetics at the University of Descartes, Paris, discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down's Syndrome, and Nobel Prize Winner, Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981

 

[crandc]

Playing devils advocate here….A fetus is a living thing, that would fall under “as long as nobody else is being harmed”

So you are pro life?

The snails I kill in my garden are living things. So is the kale I eat. The bacteria I scrub away. Every poop is full of living things.
And a woman is a living thing and a sentient being. Not an incubator.

 

[crandc]

It really does. It actually says that, medically, life begins at conception.

No. There is biologically no such thing as a moment of conception. It's a process. Scientific position is life is continuum. Gametes might or might not unite to become zygote. Zygote has potential to be a chicken or person or blue whale. It's not identical to chicken or person or blue whale.

 

[crandc]

@Mediocre Man, American College of Pediatrics is an extreme right group that split from the professional pediatric association when the real pediatricians said children raised by same sex parents are just as well off as children raised by straight parents. Many of their members are not pediatricians. They are classed as hate group by Southern Poverty law Center due to extreme homophobia and religious bigotry. They are also against any family planning and Covid vaccine. Not in any way a scientific organization.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I slugged a guy for mouthing off at my wife. He tried to belittle her because she's Asian. He didn't know I was right behind him help when he said his low down dirty little thing. Guess how long it took me to react? That's right, less than a second. I don't put up with that shit from anyone. At that time I could handle myself. Now, I'm a helpless babe in the woods. Someone would have to back up my angry mouth.

We are up waaayyy too early.

The snails I kill in my garden are living things. So is the kale I eat. The bacteria I scrub away. Every poop is full of living things.
And a woman is a living thing and a sentient being. Not an incubator.

so basically, some living things matter and some dont?

Techinically the mother IS an incubator. No one is saying ONLY an incubator. But the reality is a chicken has its own life, growing and developing inside an uncracked shell. But its still living and growing, but needs the right environment. Just because the egg and shell are outside of the mother chickens body instead of inside, does not matter to the developing life in the egg, other than relying on the environment to keep it nourished and warm.

so if women laid eggs, Would you think it okay for the woman to crush said eggs in her nest?

 

[Mediocre Man]

The snails I kill in my garden are living things. So is the kale I eat. The bacteria I scrub away. Every poop is full of living things.
And a woman is a living thing and a sentient being. Not an incubator.

We are in complete agreement

 

[Mediocre Man]

No. There is biologically no such thing as a moment of conception. It's a process. Scientific position is life is continuum. Gametes might or might not unite to become zygote. Zygote has potential to be a chicken or person or blue whale. It's not identical to chicken or person or blue whale.

Scientists and doctors disagree

 

[Mediocre Man]

@Mediocre Man, American College of Pediatrics is an extreme right group that split from the professional pediatric association when the real pediatricians said children raised by same sex parents are just as well off as children raised by straight parents. Many of their members are not pediatricians. They are classed as hate group by Southern Poverty law Center due to extreme homophobia and religious bigotry. They are also against any family planning and Covid vaccine. Not in any way a scientific organization.

Ok, but there are literally hundreds of articles supporting it. Please also remember we are 100% on the same side

 

[Orion Bailey]

I love how a woman requires a man to create life within her body, but once conception has happened, man has no say or rights to the marriage of cells he partook in in the eyes of some women. We are just a meat stick to help them have offspring. we have no say in the development of the offspring.

if men had babies instead of women, would women's maternal instinct be denied and would society accept that?

i doubt it….

So why some women believe men have no rights to protect the embryo they helped create, is beyond me.
One baby cant grow in both parents body. Just because one carries the growing fetus does not mean the other has no say or rights to the shared creation of said fetus.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I think I’ll be ok

Point is, you can't have it both ways. The cleanest solution is to let the woman choose.

It also happens to be the most moral solution. It also happens to be the best solution for society.