OT Texas

[Mediocre Man]

Point is, you can't have it both ways. The cleanest solution is to let the woman choose.

It also happens to be the most moral solution. It also happens to be the best solution for society.

I think you’re speaking for half of society though

Some would say there is nothing moral about intentionally killing for convenience, and as orion Bailey pointed out some people would also argue that the man should have some say because while the woman carries the child, isn’t it half his?

 

[Phatguysrule]

My argument was saying it is harming somebody because science says it’s somebody. My argument had nothing to do with women’s rights. Just that technically it is somebody

Science doesn't say they are somebody. No more so than sperm cells or lettuce are somebody...

Again, this comes back to not knowing right from wrong unless a book (either a medical journal or The Bible ) tells you.

Not you specifically, MM, as I know you're just devils advocating.

Neither publication is an accurate gauge of morality. Though, at least science can help you understand the consequences of policy by observing the actual facts.

The more I deal with religion the less respect I have for it. It really is counterproductive to healthy society.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Point is, you can't have it both ways. The cleanest solution is to let the woman choose.

It also happens to be the most moral solution. It also happens to be the best solution for society.

whole heartedly disagree. Not the best solution. The best solution is for the mother to make a decision WITH the father, (unless it was a forced pregnancy, rape,etc) and everyone else to butt the F out of thier decision.
This ideal that it should be her choice and her choice alone i think is reverse bigotry against men.
All for it being a personal choice and the government has no say. But it isnt just the mothers choice, in my opinion. The father should have equal say(provided it was an up and up relationship resulting in a child, regardless if that relationship maintains or not).

A Father should have the equal right to have a say in his child growing in the mothers body.

For all things to become equal, thats the best solution.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I think you’re speaking for half of society though

Some would say there is nothing moral about intentionally killing for convenience, and as orion Bailey pointed out some people would also argue that the man should have some say because while the woman carries the child, isn’t it half his?

No. It's not a child. As we've already established, it's no more a child than broccoli or sperm. In fact, for quite a while it's much less of a complex organism than broccoli.

If you are ok with jerking off or growing your own food this is no different, except you're forcing an actual person to suffer by making laws restricting a woman's rights.

And no, men don't get a say what happens to the cells they gift to a woman. Not sperm cells, bacteria, or saliva.

None of that is moral.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Science doesn't say they are somebody. No more so than sperm cells or lettuce are somebody...

Again, this comes back to not knowing right from wrong unless a book (either a medical journal or The Bible ) tells you.

Not you specifically, MM, as I know you're just devils advocating.

Neither publication is an accurate gauge of morality. Though, at least science can help you understand the consequences of policy by observing the actual facts.

The more I deal with religion the less respect I have for it. It really is counterproductive to healthy society.

woildnt the moral thing to do would be to accept the obligation of the responsibility took upon ones self to have unprotected sex?

to not destroy it but offer an opportunity and if the mother feels she cant or doesnt want to provide that, she should at least birth the child and then give it up for adoption so a loving couple can raise the infant properly?

isnt it immoral to accept such a responsibility to engage in actions that can create life and the. Just destroy such creation?

talk about moral. The moral thing to do is to realize the seriousness and long term ramifications of casual sex and take on the resulting effects.

 

[Phatguysrule]

whole heartedly disagree. Not the best solution. The best solution is for the mother to make a decision WITH the father, (unless it was a forced pregnancy, rape,etc) and everyone else to butt the F out of thier decision.
This ideal that it should be her choice and her choice alone i think is reverse bigotry against men.
All for it being a personal choice and the government has no say. But it isnt just the mothers choice, in my opinion. The father should have equal say(provided it was an up and up relationship resulting in a child, regardless if that relationship maintains or not).

A Father should have the equal right to have a say in his child growing in the mothers body.

For all things to become equal, thats the best solution.

Wrong. A man has no say. That seed stopped being his when he gave it to her. She now has full control.

If you didn't want her controlling cells you produced then you shouldn't have given them to her.

It is not moral to allow any person other than the woman to control what happens to HER BODY.

 

[Orion Bailey]

No. It's not a child. As we've already established, it's no more a child than broccoli or sperm. In fact, for quite a while it's much less of a complex organism than broccoli.

If you are ok with jerking off or growing your own food this is no different, except you're forcing an actual person to suffer by making laws restricting a woman's rights.

And no, men don't get a say what happens to the cells they gift to a woman. Not sperm cells, bacteria, or saliva.

None of that is moral.

i think it is hard for some to accept that ones moral gauge may not be the same as others. I, for one, disagree with tour moral line. Does that make me right? No. Does it make you right? No.
Morality is in the eye of the beholder and to state morals as a fact or right or wrong is extremely narrow minded.
Your opinion is you established life doesn't start at conception, which goes against many studies. So your opinion is not the only moral gauge we should hold our own standards too and is. Ot any type of Fact that should be a clear line of right and wrong.
Sorry.

How about holding individuals accountable for their actions instead of giving passes all the time??

 

[Orion Bailey]

Wrong. A man has no say. That seed stopped being his when he gave it to her. She now has full control.

If you didn't want her controlling cells you produced then you shouldn't have given them to her.

It is not moral to allow any person other than the woman to control what happens to HER BODY.

says you.
My opinion is you are wrong. It wasnt a gift. It was a joining of two people who agreed to partake in actions that can create life. What the hell. A gift? Lol.

If thats the case then woman gift man the vagina. So we own the vagina and all that comes with it, the moment she gave it to us to stick our meat stick in it.

Gift… lol.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Wrong. A man has no say. That seed stopped being his when he gave it to her. She now has full control.

If you didn't want her controlling cells you produced then you shouldn't have given them to her.

It is not moral to allow any person other than the woman to control what happens to HER BODY.

bullshit. If she didnt want us to have a say then she should have never accepted our penis in her.
See how that works?

 

[Phatguysrule]

woildnt the moral thing to do would be to accept the obligation of the responsibility took upon ones self to have unprotected sex?

to not destroy it but offer an opportunity and if the mother feels she cant or doesnt want to provide that, she should at least birth the child and then give it up for adoption so a loving couple can raise the infant properly?

isnt it immoral to accept such a responsibility to engage in actions that can create life and the. Just destroy such creation?

talk about moral. The moral thing to do is to realize the seriousness and long term ramifications of casual sex and take on the resulting effects.

No. Forcing a woman to continue an unwanted pregnancy drastically increases the odds of death and disease for her and substantially increases the odds of resulting human being a stain on society.

I'm ok with freezing it as an option. But not forcing it.

There is no societal benefit to any of those proposed laws. And every one of them removes the right of a real, undeniably living member of society to control their own body.

Your hangups about sex don't matter. People are going to have unprotected sex. Everything you have suggested is immoral and worse for society.

Even if unprotected sex is somehow immoral, two wrongs don't make a right.

Forcing a person to go through 9 months of torture and social humiliation culminating in the greatest pain imaginable can not ever be moral.

 

[Phatguysrule]

says you.
My opinion is you are wrong. It wasnt a gift. It was a joining of two people who agreed to partake in actions that can create life. What the hell. A gift? Lol.

If thats the case then woman gift man the vagina. So we own the vagina and all that comes with it, the moment she gave it to us to stick our meat stick in it.

Gift… lol.

You get whatever you took with you when you left. That was her gift to you.

 

[Phatguysrule]

bullshit. If she didnt want us to have a say then she should have never accepted our penis in her.
See how that works?

That doesn't work because you can't control what she does. She can end the pregnancy regardless of what we do.

Coat hangers, Suicide, mail order abortion pills, plan b pills.

There is no way for you to control it without removing her rights to her own body. Making somebody suffer is wrong. You are advocating making a person suffer for 9 months, and in many cases much longer. Against her will.

That can never be moral.

 

[Orion Bailey]

No. Forcing a woman to continue an unwanted pregnancy drastically increases the odds of death and disease for her and substantially increases the odds of resulting human being a stain on society.

I'm ok with freezing it as an option. But not forcing it.

There is no societal benefit to any of those proposed laws. And every one of them removes the right of a real, undeniably living member of society to control their own body.

Your hangups about sex don't matter. People are going to have unprotected sex. Everything you have suggested is immoral and worse for society.

Even if unprotected sex is somehow immoral, two wrongs don't make a right.

Forcing a person to go through 9 months of torture and social humiliation culminating in the greatest pain imaginable can not ever be moral.

so children who are adopted are worse off than if they were killed as an embryo?

sorry. Not buying your opinion.

in my opinion it takes getting down to the roots.
If people. Ant accept the responsibility that can come with having casual, unprotected sex, then they shouldnt do it.
Im tired of us as a society trying to make it easier for people to not be responsible for there actions.

One of the biggest most important things in life is to create life. Im not buying into any moral compass that tries to minimize thst responsibility.

in your scenario we turn into idiocracy.
Im not for that. And if it requires stiffer laws and penalties to avoid that future, so be it.

 

[Orion Bailey]

That doesn't work because you can't control what she does. She can end the pregnancy regardless of what we do.

Coat hangers, Suicide, mail order abortion pills, plan b pills.

There is no way for you to control it without removing her rights to her own body. Making somebody suffer is wrong. You are advocating making a person suffer for 9 months, and in many cases much longer. Against her will.

That can never be moral.

nine months of suffering is a drop in the bucket of the years of life she is denying the embryo. Short term selfishness.
Torture?

in todays modern medicine to incubate an unwanted baby for nine months to allow it to be adopted is far from torture unless the mother chooses to make it so. Humiliation? Please. A woman maintaining the life would be a hero. Putting aside her personal wants to help another life have a chance is not humilIating. Its heroism.

not buying the dramatic downsides you are portraying.

all choices come with responsibility.
Im not for making it easier to avoid these responsibilities.

over the long term it will curve in the right direction regardless of the short term messes created by those who choose not to accept the responsibility and coat hanger it up.

 

[crandc]

Scientists and doctors disagree

I am a biologist.

 

[Orion Bailey]

You get whatever you took with you when you left. That was her gift to you.

sorry. Not following?

 

[Phatguysrule]

so children who are adopted are worse off than if they were killed as an embryo?

sorry. Not buying your opinion.

in my opinion it takes getting down to the roots.
If people. Ant accept the responsibility that can come with having casual, unprotected sex, then they shouldnt do it.
Im tired of us as a society trying to make it easier for people to not be responsible for there actions.

One of the biggest most important things in life is to create life. Im not buying into any moral compass that tries to minimize thst responsibility.

in your scenario we turn into idiocracy.
Im not for that. And if it requires stiffer laws and penalties to avoid that future, so be it.

That's not what I said. Overall, forcing women to carry an unwanted pregnancy result in higher crime rates 15 years later.

Allowing women to chose results in lowering crime rates.

"We estimate that crime fell roughly 20% between 1997 and 2014 due to legalized abortion. The cumulative impact of legalized abortion on crime is roughly 45%, accounting for a very substantial portion of the roughly 50-55% overall decline from the peak of crime in the early 1990s."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect

 

[crandc]

I love how a woman requires a man to create life within her body, but once conception has happened, man has no say or rights to the marriage of cells he partook in in the eyes of some women. We are just a meat stick to help them have offspring. we have no say in the development of the offspring.

if men had babies instead of women, would women's maternal instinct be denied and would society accept that?

i doubt it….

So why some women believe men have no rights to protect the embryo they helped create, is beyond me.
One baby cant grow in both parents body. Just because one carries the growing fetus does not mean the other has no say or rights to the shared creation of said fetus.

When you assume all the pain and risk of carrying a pregnancy, giving birth, and being held responsible for care of child, you get a vote. Until then you do not have right to veto power over my uterus.

 

[Phatguysrule]

sorry. Not following?

Any cells inside your clothes when you leave are her gift to you. Whatever that may be.

Slavery is not legal. You don't own her body because she had sex with you. Quite frankly this whole line of reasoning is deplorable.

 

[Orion Bailey]

That's not what I said. Overall, forcing women to carry an unwanted pregnancy result in higher crime rates 15 years later.

Allowing women to chose results in lowering crime rates.

until you show some qualified stats backing that i think your now pulling numbers out of the air.

If women choose to be a single mother hating the child for forcing motherhood on her( because of lack of understanding the choices she has and the responsibility they entail), then sure.
If all unwanted pregnancies were responsible and went through proper adoption channels then no.

its all about the choices made. Again. Not for making it easier to avoid responsibility of said choices made.

 

[crandc]

Bullshit. Absolute fucking misogynist bullshit.
Women in relationships usually do consult with partners. Teens usually consult with parents. But sometimes they can't. This shit about male has equal rights means giving him absolute veto power. Because if they disagree?
There are no hundreds of studies saying fertilized eggs are really people.
Just a couple of men hating the idea that a woman might make a decision without deferring to their claimed superior knowledge because having a dick makes them experts in everything, especially pregnancy.
Abortion laws are not about protecting "life", they are about punishing women. Trivializing women.

 

[Phatguysrule]

until you show some qualified stats backing that i think your now pulling numbers out of the air.

If women choose to be a single mother hating the child for forcing motherhood on her( because of lack of understanding the choices she has and the responsibility they entail), then sure.
If all unwanted pregnancies were responsible and went through proper adoption channels then no.

its all about the choices made. Again. Not for making it easier to avoid responsibility of said choices made.

Edited to add link to Wikipedia.

"We estimate that crime fell roughly 20% between 1997 and 2014 due to legalized abortion. The cumulative impact of legalized abortion on crime is roughly 45%, accounting for a very substantial portion of the roughly 50-55% overall decline from the peak of crime in the early 1990s."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect

 

[Mediocre Man]

I am a biologist.

So you as a biologist don’t think a fetus is a living thing?

 

[Orion Bailey]

When you assume all the pain and risk of carrying a pregnancy, giving birth, and being held responsible for care of child, you get a vote. Until then you do not have right to veto power over my uterus.

i dont get a vote on tour body. I get a vote on the future of the growing life i helped create that is in your body.
I say this only as the person who helped make the child.
Im all for both parents having to accept an aboetion and if they do, then it sbould be allowed. But if the father(not the government) doesn't consent the. He sboild be allowed the opportunity to raise the child the mother doesnt want.
How elsecwill men wver have children?


Sorry. My opinion is you aRe wrong in thinking you have sole decision making of the life you HELPED to create.
If you dont want it? Fine. But if the father does, women have an obligation to allow him that chance at fatherhood the moment they consented to letting him stick his penis in her.
Cant have it both ways. Sorry.
So my cote would be both parents must consent.
Im not for government control saying its right or wrong.

Man can have a very evil side. deny man the equal opportunity to raise a child and man will figure out a way to remove women from the equation. As sad as that would be.

 

[crandc]

Women who are forced to carry pregnancy against their will have significantly higher rates of depression and substance abuse, are more likely to be poor, much less likely to complete education. Women who choose to carry pregnancy do not suffer these effects. Problem isn't baby, problem is taking away all choice and forcing woman to have child she doesn't want.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Edited to add link to Wikipedia.

"We estimate that crime fell roughly 20% between 1997 and 2014 due to legalized abortion. The cumulative impact of legalized abortion on crime is roughly 45%, accounting for a very substantial portion of the roughly 50-55% overall decline from the peak of crime in the early 1990s."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect

wikipedia? Anyone can add anything there. Estimate? What studies brought this conclusion on?

 

[crandc]

So you as a biologist don’t think a fetus is a living thing?

I have said fertilized eggs are alive. So are unfertilized eggs. So are bacteria.
This might come as a shock to you but I consider women to be human lives.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Women who are forced to carry pregnancy against their will have significantly higher rates of depression and substance abuse, are more likely to be poor, much less likely to complete education. Women who choose to carry pregnancy do not suffer these effects. Problem isn't baby, problem is taking away all choice and forcing woman to have child she doesn't want.

a man who was wanting a child who is denied that opportunity from the consenting partner can also have these things happen. Depression, drug abuse, etc.


its as if you think men have no emotions…

 

[crandc]

Position is clear. Orion Bailey thinks men must be allowed to force woman to carry pregnancy. Because a woman isn't a human. Just a hole to stick it in.

 

[Orion Bailey]

The avoidance of accepting of responsibility for ones actions is about as immoral as it can get. And thats what people push for more of these days. Not holding people accountable for thier actions and behavior.


Lets just kill off the unwanted.

heard that one before….think it was some disgusting kkk rally video or something….