The Bench

[blue9]

His defense is fairly solid IMO

That's what I meant by "doesn't really fuck up". I don't know that I'd go as far as "solid", but he's good enough to not be a hole. But maybe it's just semantics at this point. Either way, he's significantly better than anyone last season, but still quite a disappointment.

 

[Natebishop3]

Same could be said for Lillard? Sure, he plays PG better than Mo, but he dribbles and shoots more than anything.

I disagree. I don't think Lillard pounds the ball for 15-20 seconds. I think he moves the ball much quicker than that. He does shoot a lot, but I think Nic handles the ball just as much when the starters are in. Lillard plays off the ball more than you'd think.

 

[noknobs]

My point was that he isn't a point guard, but he's playing one on our team. He dribbles a ton, and more often than not it ends up with him taking a shot.

The last few games maybe, but during the stretch where he had 8, 7, 6, 6 assists he sure seemed to be. He's played 17 games with these guys, hopefully he'll continue to grow.

We need consistent scoring off the bench, and right now we're not getting it. CJ can't come back soon enough.

Even more than Mo, I think the inconsistency of Wright so far is to blame. I really thought he'd average over 4.7 ppg. TRob is also very inconsistent on offense and Freeland isn't really in there for his offense. Fortunately there's always at least one starter in the game. Not sure how he'll fit but I'm definitely looking forward to seeing CJ play.

 

[Draco]

But the problem is that Mo is so dammed inconsistent. Last night he was on, and was an important cog in our victory, but there's no guarantee that he'll have a good game like that. He's our best scorer off the bench, but we have no idea what we'll get from him.

How many bench players are consistently good in the NBA? Most the below average teams have terribly inconsistent starters. If a bench player is consistently good he’ll usually wind up as a starter somewhere in a year or two. Players on the bench are just going to have flaws in their game.

Sure it’d be nice if our bench was better, but they’ve had big roles in a number of wins. Freeland has outplayed Lopez at times. TRob basically won the Phoenix game. Mo has given us a a scoring lift on many nights when we need it. Our bench is above average, its not one of the best but its been good this year. When the team is winning 15 of 18 games I think some fans get used to us outplaying the opposition and expect that to be the norm.

But check out the +/- numbers for the season:
[/FONT] Mo's number is particularly telling. As is Batum's, only in the opposite direction.
[Edit: fuck it, I can't find a way to keep the original spacing. Just follow the link.]

I don’t like using +/- to form opinions on players value. Sometimes guys off the bench like Mo are paired with other reserves which can bring down their numbers, while starters play together with better teammates. Its an indirect stat dependent on 9 other players on the court. It’s such a random stat that yes can be an interesting anecdote but should never be used to judge a players value to a team.

I think the record is a clear indication that the bench has improved. Would I like to see it improved more? Absolutely. Will that happen? Unlikely. Olshey has sold off every 2nd round pick for FIVE years. In addition we've used our salary cap space and have to 1st rounder next year. That leaves the current roster. Whoever is traded will be half of the board's pet player and draw some serious ire. If we start losing after a trade...

We own our 2017 second round pick. We’ve traded away our 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018 second round picks.

My point was that he isn't a point guard, but he's playing one on our team. He dribbles a ton, and more often than not it ends up with him taking a shot. This would be fine if we had Watson playing, but he's not currently logging many minutes. Having Mo in the backcourt with Dame doesn't seem effective to me. Last year Dame played some of his best ball when we had Maynor come in off the bench. Mo struggles to find the open man and spends too much of the clock pounding the ball.

You make it sound as if he’s leading the team in shots; Mo is shooting less shots per minute than LaMarcus, Lillard or TRob. He often plays without Aldridge or Lillard, and with lower usage rate players on the floor so he needs to be taking shots to keep the offense functioning.

 

[blue9]

I disagree. I don't think Lillard pounds the ball for 15-20 seconds. I think he moves the ball much quicker than that. He does shoot a lot, but I think Nic handles the ball just as much when the starters are in. Lillard plays off the ball more than you'd think.

Okay, I agree. But during a broken play Lillard pounds the ball. However, our offense is set up to keep the ball moving - so when we're actually executing, the ball isn't in his hands for long stretches of time. So many of our plays start with a curling Nic receiving a pass and then passing it right back for Lillard to make a second pass, so he doesn't really have the opportunity to pound the ball. But when things aren't going as planned it typically just means Lillard dribbles for a while then shoots a screen-3, or shoots off the dribble after coming off a P/P.

 

[dviss1]

But the problem is that Mo is so dammed inconsistent. Last night he was on, and was an important cog in our victory, but there's no guarantee that he'll have a good game like that. He's our best scorer off the bench, but we have no idea what we'll get from him.

I think what MM is talking about is that if we had an offensive presence in the post on our bench, it would make our whole 2nd unit better. My buddy was talking about trading for Greg Monroe to fill this position and I argued he would be too expensive and wouldn't want that role. He's in a contract year and will want some money next season.

 

[blue9]

I don’t like using +/- to form opinions on players value. Sometimes guys off the bench like Mo are paired with other reserves which can bring down their numbers, while starters play together with better teammates. Its an indirect stat dependent on 9 other players on the court. It’s such a random stat that yes can be an interesting anecdote but should never be used to judge a players value to a team.

Well said! It drives me crazy when people use it as if it directly relates to a player's production.

 

[RR7]

I think what MM is talking about is that if we had an offensive presence in the post on our bench, it would make our whole 2nd unit better. My buddy was talking about trading for Greg Monroe to fill this position and I argued he would be too expensive and wouldn't want that role. He's in a contract year and will want some money next season.

There's really no way we can add Monroe to our bench through what we have to trade.

 

[magnifier661]

There's really no way we can add Monroe to our bench through what we have to trade.

And… I doubt Monroe is fine coming off the bench either.

 

[magnifier661]

If you are truly looking for a bench post contributor, you need to look a little lower on the totem pole. Players in the caliber of Carl Landry

 

[RR7]

Other random possibilities, potentially available in some form or another at the 4/5.....
Brandon Bass
Spencer Hawes
Glen Davis
Jason Thompson
Channing Frye

 

[magnifier661]

Other random possibilities, potentially available in some form or another at the 4/5.....
Brandon Bass
Spencer Hawes
Glen Davis
Jason Thompson
Channing Frye

I don't like Frye and Hawes. If I would pick from your list, I would like Brass the best. He can post up, shoot those elbow jumpers and is a decent defender.

But the reality is… Why can't T. Rob be at this caliber? He has all the tools, just needs to slow down a bit. I think by the end of the season, he will be our biggest big man contributor off the bench.

 

[Pinwheel1]

How many bench players are consistently good in the NBA? Most the below average teams have terribly inconsistent starters. If a bench player is consistently good he’ll usually wind up as a starter somewhere in a year or two. Players on the bench are just going to have flaws in their game.

.

That and the fact that coming off the bench cold makes it that much harder to consistently shoot well. Even superstars are inconsistent with their shots, but they get so many shots they have time to get into a groove.

I expect Mo to be inconsistent with his shot.

 

[Mediocre Man]

I don't like Frye and Hawes. If I would pick from your list, I would like Brass the best. He can post up, shoot those elbow jumpers and is a decent defender.

But the reality is… Why can't T. Rob be at this caliber? He has all the tools, just needs to slow down a bit. I think by the end of the season, he will be our biggest big man contributor off the bench.

If the goal is to win this year, as the Blazers have made it, then you need a player who is already at that caliber, not a player who could get there in a year or two.

 

[Natebishop3]

The last few games maybe, but during the stretch where he had 8, 7, 6, 6 assists he sure seemed to be. He's played 17 games with these guys, hopefully he'll continue to grow.



Even more than Mo, I think the inconsistency of Wright so far is to blame. I really thought he'd average over 4.7 ppg. TRob is also very inconsistent on offense and Freeland isn't really in there for his offense. Fortunately there's always at least one starter in the game. Not sure how he'll fit but I'm definitely looking forward to seeing CJ play.

Wright has definitely been a disappointment. I thought he'd be more consistent from deep, but we haven't really seen it. Robinson is what he is. He's going to have good games and bad games. He's a project.

 

[RR7]

If the goal is to win this year, as the Blazers have made it, then you need a player who is already at that caliber, not a player who could get there in a year or two.

That's my thinking. Not that I want to dump RObinson by any means. But hoping one becomes, and actually already being that are two different things. Now, Neil would have to decide if giving up on younger players was worth whatever one of those additions could provide. But you never know what sort of luck you might end up with in a season, and to not see what can happen because in a year or so someone might be something is sometimes a bad way to go about it.

 

[Natebishop3]

I think our starting unit is good enough that we could contend, but our bench is still questionable. Would you guys make a trade at this juncture to hopefully put us over the top?

 

[magnifier661]

If the goal is to win this year, as the Blazers have made it, then you need a player who is already at that caliber, not a player who could get there in a year or two.

It's crazy how we as a team went from, just making the playoffs to contention. I agree with you, but I think T Rob will get there by the end of the season. I absolutely don't want to break up what we have going here

 

[RR7]

I think our starting unit is good enough that we could contend, but our bench is still questionable. Would you guys make a trade at this juncture to hopefully put us over the top?

Depending on the trade, sure. I wouldn't want to give up CJ for a very marginal upgrade. Kind of a crap answer, I know, but really all depends on the deal.

 

[Boob-No-More]

The biggest indication that our bench is infinitely better than last year? Our starter's minutes are down and we're winning more - LOT more. Yes, there is still room for improvement, but I'm not worried about our starters minutes. Last year we had 3 guys in the top 10 in MPG. This year, we have one (barely).

Damian Lillard:
2013-14: 36.6 MPG (16th in the league)
2012-13: 38.6 MPG (3rd in the league)
Difference: - 2.0 MPG

LaMarcus Aldridge:
2013-14: 37.2 MPG (Tied for 9th in the league)
2012-13: 37.7 MPG (9th in the league)
Difference: - 0.5 MPG

Nicolas Batum:
2013-14: 34.3 MPG
2012-13: 38.5 MPG (5th in the league)
Difference: - 4.2 MPG

Wesley Matthews:
2013-14: 34.3MPG
2012-13: 34.8 MPG
Difference: - 0.5 MPG

So, last year our starters had to play huge minutes just for the team to win 40.2% of their games. This year, our starters are playing less and we're winning 83.3% of our games. Yes, our starters have gotten better (particularly Wes and Lopez is an upgrade over Hickson in many important ways), but our bench is keeping us in games while our starters get more rest - and it's not costing us wins. I think that's huge. No, we don't have a great bench; we have great starters and an adequate bench. And, compared to last year, adequate is immeasurably better than historically bad.

BNM

 

[Nikolokolus]

I think I'm probably alone here, but I'm just not sold CJ is going to be any kind of answer to our bench's efficiency. After being in a boot for months, what is his fitness level going to be like (and I'm talking about basketball shape, not general fitness)? How long is it going to take him to adapt to NBA defenses? Is he enough of a point guard to spell Lillard?

I totally get the idea that this team needs more consistency and fire power than Mo provides, but counting on a late lotto pick in a weak draft class to be that guy isn't anything I think we should count on ... especially knowing how quick Stotts is with the hook.

 

[Mediocre Man]

It's crazy how we as a team went from, just making the playoffs to contention. I agree with you, but I think T Rob will get there by the end of the season. I absolutely don't want to break up what we have going here

Our team has played 18 games. We haven't gone from anything to anything. However, if the brass thinks we are actual contenders, then they should absolutely add veteran pieces that you can rely on to get you such and such every night.

I do not agree with this policy as very few teams have ever added a piece mid season that pushed them over the top.

 

[magnifier661]

The biggest indication that our bench is infinitely better than last year? Our starter's minutes are down and we're winning more - LOT more. Yes, there is still room for improvement, but I'm not worried about our starters minutes. Last year we had 3 guys in the top 10 in MPG. This year, we have one (barely).

Damian Lillard:
2013-14: 36.6 MPG (16th in the league)
2012-13: 38.6 MPG (3rd in the league)
Difference: - 2.0 MPG

LaMarcus Aldridge:
2013-14: 37.2 MPG (Tied for 9th in the league)
2012-13: 37.7 MPG (9th in the league)
Difference: - 0.5 MPG

Nicolas Batum:
2013-14: 34.3 MPG
2012-13: 38.5 MPG (5th in the league)
Difference: - 4.2 MPG

Wesley Matthews:
2013-14: 34.3MPG
2012-13: 34.8 MPG
Difference: - 0.5 MPG

So, last year our starters had to play huge minutes just for the team to win 40.2% of their games. This year, our starters are playing less and we're winning 83.3% of our games. Yes, our starters have gotten better (particularly Wes and Lopez is an upgrade over Hickson in many important ways), but our bench is keeping us in games while our starters get more rest - and it's not costing us wins. I think that's huge. No, we don't have a great bench; we have great starters and an adequate bench. And, compared to last year, adequate is immeasurably better than historically bad.

BNM

And…. All our starters are performing much better to boot. The amount of energy we used to have just to get back into the game because our bench was soooo dismal can really wear on you. I just want a bench that won't blow all the work our starters accomplished. Eventually, they will even get better as the season progresses. I think Wright will get into the groove, CJ will become a factor and T. Rob will perform more efficiently.

 

[magnifier661]

Our team has played 18 games. We haven't gone from anything to anything. However, if the brass thinks we are actual contenders, then they should absolutely add veteran pieces that you can rely on to get you such and such every night.

I do not agree with this policy as very few teams have ever added a piece mid season that pushed them over the top.

As a realist, you have every right to say what you say. As a homer, I have every right to say what I say. But if you truly believe we haven't done anything, then there is no point on grabbing anyone new. To further your point, let this season pan out, let the chips fall where they land, then make a decision on what to do this summer.

 

[HailBlazers]

The biggest indication that our bench is infinitely better than last year? Our starter's minutes are down and we're winning more - LOT more. Yes, there is still room for improvement, but I'm not worried about our starters minutes. Last year we had 3 guys in the top 10 in MPG. This year, we have one (barely).

Damian Lillard:
2013-14: 36.6 MPG (16th in the league)
2012-13: 38.6 MPG (3rd in the league)
Difference: - 2.0 MPG

LaMarcus Aldridge:
2013-14: 37.2 MPG (Tied for 9th in the league)
2012-13: 37.7 MPG (9th in the league)
Difference: - 0.5 MPG

Nicolas Batum:
2013-14: 34.3 MPG
2012-13: 38.5 MPG (5th in the league)
Difference: - 4.2 MPG

Wesley Matthews:
2013-14: 34.3MPG
2012-13: 34.8 MPG
Difference: - 0.5 MPG

So, last year our starters had to play huge minutes just for the team to win 40.2% of their games. This year, our starters are playing less and we're winning 83.3% of our games. Yes, our starters have gotten better (particularly Wes and Lopez is an upgrade over Hickson in many important ways), but our bench is keeping us in games while our starters get more rest - and it's not costing us wins. I think that's huge. No, we don't have a great bench; we have great starters and an adequate bench. And, compared to last year, adequate is immeasurably better than historically bad.

BNM

Repped. Thus why I'm not disappointed.

If anybody is it's their own fault for having too high of expectations for a group that has never played together.

 

[Nikolokolus]

As a realist, you have every right to say what you say. As a homer, I have every right to say what I say. But if you truly believe we haven't done anything, then there is no point on grabbing anyone new. To further your point, let this season pan out, let the chips fall where they land, then make a decision on what to do this summer.

His point Mags, is the Blazers haven't done anything because tomorrow is promised to no one. Everything exists as potential until it comes to pass or fails to materialize.

All we have right now is a trend. If Neil Olshey believes that the trend is more signal than noise, then he should probably make a move to reinforce their chances of "contending" (if he believes that have that kind of potential) and that usually means acquiring "proven" veteran help and sacrificing young players with "potential" to shore up areas of weakness. It's not always true, but youth is usually not served in the playoffs.

 

[THE HCP]

Could one of you stat gee.......errr......gurus compare last years bench numbers and this years for us and post it.

 

[HomerLovesKoolAid]

Could one of you stat gee.......errr......gurus compare last years bench numbers and this years for us and post it.

After extensive research:

Last year: suck
This year: pretty good.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Could one of you stat gee.......errr......gurus compare last years bench numbers and this years for us and post it.

This year.

Last year.

Basically our bench scoring (22.8 ppg vs. 18.5 ppg), rebounding (11.9 rpg vs. 10.5 rpg), assisting (6.8 apg vs. 4.7 apg) and shooting (.429 FG% vs. .399 FG% and .344 3FG% vs. .298 3FG%) are all up from last year. The result is an improvement in offensive efficiency from 21.1 to 26.7.

Of course, we are still getting outscored by our opponents' benches (on average), but our opponents play their benches more minutes than we do. We do have a slight improvement in defensive eff from 38.9 to 37.4. So, in terms of efficiency we've cut the gap between our bench and our opponents' from Deff = 17.8 to Deff = 10.7.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Like I said previously, we still don't have a good bench, but we have an adequate bench (given the quality of our starters).

BNM