The Bulls = Multiplicity

[ABM]

Roy has really only started to do that this year as well, so really I'm not defending him. At times many of us have felt that the Portland offense shuts down and watches Roy.

That's what made last night's game so sweet for me. When the ball goes down into the post - specifically, to Oden - it then begins to open up SO many more options/opportunities!

Much less of that give-the-ball-to-Roy-and-watch-him-work offense.

Perhaps this seems a bit trite, but last night was Greg's "breakout" game.

 

[Iwatas]

Blake is impressing me. I am inclined to keep him (and the Sergio rotation) rather than get Hinrich.

Deng, on the other hand... in the buy-low, sell-high world of intelligent investors, Luol Deng is the perfect pickup. Trout + Webster for Deng? I'd be happy with that. Long-term solution at SF, with Batum sharing the rotation (and when Deng is injured). Deng is the better player, and the only potential all-star of the 3.

iWatas

 

[Natebishop3]

That's what made last night's game so sweet for me. When the ball goes down into the post - specifically, to Oden - it then begins to open up SO many more options/opportunities!

Much less of that give-the-ball-to-Roy-and-watch-him-work offense.

Perhaps this seems a bit trite, but last night was Greg's "breakout" game.

I felt that way too ABM. I've been screaming to get the ball to Oden all year. I cringe every time I see him open in the paint with good positioning, and the guards just ignore him. Finally we started giving him the ball last night, and FINALLY we started seeing some progress from Greg. I was very very encouraged.

 

[Denny Crane]

The guy is talented DC. I've just always felt, when I've had a chance to watch him, that his shots weren't coming in the flow of the offense. I've seen him go one-on-one at lot. Roy has really only started to do that this year as well, so really I'm not defending him. At times many of us have felt that the Portland offense shuts down and watches Roy.

The Bulls do use Gordon at the end of quarters at the top of the key clear out kind of play, but if there is one knock I have on Gordon's offense it is that he isn't that good at manufacturing his own shot and playing one-on-one. He's most effective getting kickout passes beyond the 3pt line (42.2%) for mostly open looks, and pulling up for the open 3 on fast breaks and that sort of thing.

Given that he's out there a lot with guys like Thabo and Thomas and Noah, it gives opponents the luxury of double teaming him and Rose. And those ~4 APG is pretty amazing when you consider that most of the guys he can pass to aren't much able to score with the ball from anywhere beyond 3 ft.

Gooden's been surprisingly good, but he only gets 30 MPG and still averages near a double double.

This season is something of a change for Gordon. When paired with Hinrich, he guarded opposing PGs while Hinrich guarded the bigger and more physical SGs. The team won 47 and 49 games with that backcourt. VDN is forcefeeding the PG position to Rose at both ends, meaning Gordon now has to guard the SGs or often SFs, as the Bulls play a lot of 3 G lineups or use a guy like Deng to guard the Kobe types at SG.

Maybe I'm something of a homer, but I'm just not seeing that Gordon would be anything but an ideal guy to pair with Roy. He is small and quick and can guard opposing PGs. With Roy you have the big guard complement who can be/should be primary ballhandler and Gordon gives you a guy that will make opponents pay for double teaming Roy and an alternate clutch guy. The back court would score about 45 PPG and get about 10 APG, and I don't think there's more than a couple of back courts in the entire NBA that could match that.

On the other hand, Portland is well over .500 and winning 6 of the last 10 games with a more traditional PG playing, and chemistry is worth a lot, IMO.

Hinrich has been a real frustration for me as a fan. He's got the skills and mentality to be a really good player. But it's so frustrating to see him clank open 3's when they count and make them when they don't (the 3pt shooting % is deceiving!). If he could be consistent in his shooting, he'd be recognized as being one of the better/underrated guard in the league.

I wouldn't look at last season as anything but a complete meltdown for the whole team.

 

[Natebishop3]

The Bulls do use Gordon at the end of quarters at the top of the key clear out kind of play, but if there is one knock I have on Gordon's offense it is that he isn't that good at manufacturing his own shot and playing one-on-one. He's most effective getting kickout passes beyond the 3pt line (42.2%) for mostly open looks, and pulling up for the open 3 on fast breaks and that sort of thing.

Given that he's out there a lot with guys like Thabo and Thomas and Noah, it gives opponents the luxury of double teaming him and Rose. And those ~4 APG is pretty amazing when you consider that most of the guys he can pass to aren't much able to score with the ball from anywhere beyond 3 ft.

Gooden's been surprisingly good, but he only gets 30 MPG and still averages near a double double.

This season is something of a change for Gordon. When paired with Hinrich, he guarded opposing PGs while Hinrich guarded the bigger and more physical SGs. The team won 47 and 49 games with that backcourt. VDN is forcefeeding the PG position to Rose at both ends, meaning Gordon now has to guard the SGs or often SFs, as the Bulls play a lot of 3 G lineups or use a guy like Deng to guard the Kobe types at SG.

Maybe I'm something of a homer, but I'm just not seeing that Gordon would be anything but an ideal guy to pair with Roy. He is small and quick and can guard opposing PGs. With Roy you have the big guard complement who can be/should be primary ballhandler and Gordon gives you a guy that will make opponents pay for double teaming Roy and an alternate clutch guy. The back court would score about 45 PPG and get about 10 APG, and I don't think there's more than a couple of back courts in the entire NBA that could match that.

On the other hand, Portland is well over .500 and winning 6 of the last 10 games with a more traditional PG playing, and chemistry is worth a lot, IMO.

Hinrich has been a real frustration for me as a fan. He's got the skills and mentality to be a really good player. But it's so frustrating to see him clank open 3's when they count and make them when they don't (the 3pt shooting % is deceiving!). If he could be consistent in his shooting, he'd be recognized as being one of the better/underrated guard in the league.

I wouldn't look at last season as anything but a complete meltdown for the whole team.

I feel your pain. We want a guy like Gordon paired with Roy, and right now that's the role Steve Blake plays. Trust me, Blake is not a traditional point guard. He's terrible at finding our big men inside. He's not very good at hitting the open man on a break. He's a scorer, but really all he can do is shoot.

Right now the future, as some of us see it, is Bayless and Roy. Blake is a stop-gap, so I think that's why most of us don't see Gordon as an option. If we brought in Gordon, where would that leave Bayless? If anything we want a more traditional point guard on this team. Someone who can control the flow and run the offense. We don't have a player like that right now.

 

[Denny Crane]

I feel your pain. We want a guy like Gordon paired with Roy, and right now that's the role Steve Blake plays. Trust me, Blake is not a traditional point guard. He's terrible at finding our big men inside. He's not very good at hitting the open man on a break. He's a scorer, but really all he can do is shoot.

Right now the future, as some of us see it, is Bayless and Roy. Blake is a stop-gap, so I think that's why most of us don't see Gordon as an option. If we brought in Gordon, where would that leave Bayless? If anything we want a more traditional point guard on this team. Someone who can control the flow and run the offense. We don't have a player like that right now.

I keep going back to the championship Bulls. They didn't have that traditional PG, but instead played guys like Paxson and Kerr and other 3pt specialists who guarded the PGs on defense. Ron Harper played a lot on the 2nd 3peat team as a defensive specialist guarding opposing PGs. What they had, and what Portland has now, is a guy at another position who can do what a traditional PG does. That'd be Pippen on that Bulls team, and Roy on the Blazers.

I can see fans' desire to want Bayless to succeed. Consider that BG was 6th man of the year as rookie; he was good enough that the coach couldn't keep him off the floor. Bayless isn't being so good that Nate can't keep him off the floor for significant minutes...

Another possibility for the Blazers is to play Roy at point forward (a la Pippen) full time, opening the back court for a variety of combinations. Blake + Rudy. Rudy + Gordon. Or whatever combo KP can put together via trade and FA.

 

[Natebishop3]

I keep going back to the championship Bulls. They didn't have that traditional PG, but instead played guys like Paxson and Kerr and other 3pt specialists who guarded the PGs on defense. Ron Harper played a lot on the 2nd 3peat team as a defensive specialist guarding opposing PGs. What they had, and what Portland has now, is a guy at another position who can do what a traditional PG does. That'd be Pippen on that Bulls team, and Roy on the Blazers.

I can see fans' desire to want Bayless to succeed. Consider that BG was 6th man of the year as rookie; he was good enough that the coach couldn't keep him off the floor. Bayless isn't being so good that Nate can't keep him off the floor for significant minutes...

Another possibility for the Blazers is to play Roy at point forward (a la Pippen) full time, opening the back court for a variety of combinations. Blake + Rudy. Rudy + Gordon. Or whatever combo KP can put together via trade and FA.

The problem is that you're trying to fit Roy into a Pippen role, when Roy is usually in the MJ role on this team.

 

[Denny Crane]

The problem is that you're trying to fit Roy into a Pippen role, when Roy is usually in the MJ role on this team.

MJ played PG for much of a season and averaged near a triple double at it. He hated playing PG so they went to the Pippen thing. And Pip was the main guy on the team when Jordan retired (the first time) with a lousy supporting cast and they only lost in the playoffs due to a ticky tacky foul call on a 3pt shot (3 FTs which won the game).

By the end of MJ's career with the Bulls, he was effectively a PF, playing on the block with that deadly turnaround jumper. It was useful that Pip could get him the ball in position like that.

So to me the ultimate question is if Roy is willing to play the point forward / point SG role.

 

[MikeDC]

How is Hinrich "significantly better than Blake"?

He is a better defender, but that is really it. I think Hinrich would be a nice addition to the Blazers, but I find it laughable when fans of other teams say their PG's are significantly better than Blake when frankly they aren't.


Portland has spare parts, and adding players like Deng, Nocioni and Hinrich would help our team, I'm not sure how much.

As for Ben Gordon? Nice player, horrible fit in Portland.

Agree on Gordon.

 

[drexlersdad]

The problem is that there is no gurantee that Bayless reaches Gordon's level. Odds are against it.

Coming into tonight's game, Gordon was averaging 21.0 PPG on 58 TS%.

The other players in the NBA doing that this year? Lebron James, Devin Harris, Chris Bosh, Danny Granger, Amare Stoudemire, and Kevin Martin. The guy is an elite scorer, and would make a great second option next to Brandon Roy (or maybe even take over as first option). The thing with Gordon, is that he is scoring at a higher efficiency than Roy right now, and slightly less volume...but Gordon has never played with good big men, Roy has two pretty good ones in Oden/Aldridge. So Gordon's play might exceed Roy's, scoring wise, on the Blazers (of course with Roy too to take pressure off Gordon).

If I was the Blazers, going into this summers free agency, my top options would probably be the Utah big men, Boozer, then Millsap. But after that, Gordon. Hopefully Pritchard thinks otherwise, because the Bulls really need Gordon, and we don't need a team throwing big money at him. But Gordon/Roy/Aldridge/Oden is a pretty damn good core 4.

ok we get it you like ben gordon. your username is "i like ben gordon" in russian. you have a ben gordon tattoo on your lower back. you have a ben gordon trapper keeper. you have various cutouts of ben gordon from magazines that you have glued onto the pages of your social studies workbook. ben gordon makes you believe in love. ben gordon makes the sunshine so much more beautiful, because you know that you have another day on this beautiful world where you can think about ben gordon.

we should go after boozer in free agency? to what, backup LMA? preposterous. gordon should be our FIRST target. what would it take before chicago wouldnt match? max??

and what the fuck is up with luol deng??? do you think he is tanking it ala VC in toronto?? his numbers from 06/07 were out of this world and now he is a marginal starter?

 

[MikeDC]

I'd agree that Hinrich, Nocioni or Deng sort of make sense for you guys, but Hinrich is the only one I'd consider a deal for. You wouldn't give us anything to make me want to trade Deng (if he's going to pull out of his tailspin... which I think is largely because the coaches play to his weaknesses... it might as well be with us... we won't get good value otherwise). You've got better options than Noc already.

So that leaves Hinrich. I think he's significantly better than Blake, but is that worth it? If at the end of the day you expect Bayless or Rudy to start there, probably not.

After giving it some thought, If I were the Blazers, I might make a bid such as

Bayless, Webster, Frye, LaFrentz, Diogu
for
Deng, Hinrich, Gooden (I think we'd have to add your choice of Ruffin, Gray or Hunter to balance rosters, but ok)

The logic there is it
1. Gives you three more veteran players with significant playoff experience
2. It cements your team and allows you to go forward and grow together. Deng and Hinrich will be upgrades at the 1 and 3.

1- Hinrich, Blake
2- Roy, Rudy
3- Deng, Outlaw
4- LMA, Gooden
5- Oden, Przy

Pretty clear upgrades to make your team more suited to winning now. But at the same time, the guys you're getting aren't exactly old, so they'll continue to be part of the core going forward.

As a Bulls fan, I want this team more or less blown up, so I'd consider a deal that moves long term salary off the books and allows for pretty much a complete rebuild. I don't think John Paxson would do this however.

It also raises problems for us. Can Bayless coexist with Rose? Can he replace Gordon? What do we do with Gordon? Too many issues to deal with, and the Bulls haven't even gotten rid of Larry Hughes either.

 

[drexlersdad]

Bayless, Webster, Frye, LaFrentz, Diogu
for
Deng, Hinrich, Gooden (I think we'd have to add your choice of Ruffin, Gray or Hunter to balance rosters, but ok)

The logic there is it
1. Gives you three more veteran players with significant playoff experience
2. It cements your team and allows you to go forward and grow together. Deng and Hinrich will be upgrades at the 1 and 3.

1- Hinrich, Blake
2- Roy, Rudy
3- Deng, Outlaw
4- LMA, Gooden
5- Oden, Przy

Pretty clear upgrades to make your team more suited to winning now. But at the same time, the guys you're getting aren't exactly old, so they'll continue to be part of the core going forward.

As a Bulls fan, I want this team more or less blown up, so I'd consider a deal that moves long term salary off the books and allows for pretty much a complete rebuild. I don't think John Paxson would do this however.

i do this deal, as long as we can resign gooden to a decent contract. that makes us a championship team this year imo.

 

[Natebishop3]

MJ played PG for much of a season and averaged near a triple double at it. He hated playing PG so they went to the Pippen thing. And Pip was the main guy on the team when Jordan retired (the first time) with a lousy supporting cast and they only lost in the playoffs due to a ticky tacky foul call on a 3pt shot (3 FTs which won the game).

By the end of MJ's career with the Bulls, he was effectively a PF, playing on the block with that deadly turnaround jumper. It was useful that Pip could get him the ball in position like that.

So to me the ultimate question is if Roy is willing to play the point forward / point SG role.

No, that's what I'm saying though. Roy is a primary scorer (like MJ) who can handle the ball, but he isn't the answer for long periods of time (like Pippen was). Don't forget, Pippen played point guard for the Blazers for a full season under Cheeks. I'm fully aware of what Pippen was capable of. Roy is not Pippen. Roy is a better all-around scorer than Pippen was imo, but Pippen was a much better passer and defender.

If the Blazers had a Pippen they would be set. Play Bayless or Blake at the point, Roy at shooting guard, and the Pippen clone at small forward. If Rudy was three inches taller he could be the passer that Pippen was. He has the vision.

 

[drexlersdad]

MJ played PG for much of a season and averaged near a triple double at it. He hated playing PG so they went to the Pippen thing. And Pip was the main guy on the team when Jordan retired (the first time) with a lousy supporting cast and they only lost in the playoffs due to a ticky tacky foul call on a 3pt shot (3 FTs which won the game).

By the end of MJ's career with the Bulls, he was effectively a PF, playing on the block with that deadly turnaround jumper. It was useful that Pip could get him the ball in position like that.

So to me the ultimate question is if Roy is willing to play the point forward / point SG role.

roy plays pg when needed, and basically the whole 4th quarter, ala kobe/mcgrady/etc.

 

[Natebishop3]

After giving it some thought, If I were the Blazers, I might make a bid such as

Bayless, Webster, Frye, LaFrentz, Diogu
for
Deng, Hinrich, Gooden (I think we'd have to add your choice of Ruffin, Gray or Hunter to balance rosters, but ok)

The logic there is it
1. Gives you three more veteran players with significant playoff experience
2. It cements your team and allows you to go forward and grow together. Deng and Hinrich will be upgrades at the 1 and 3.

1- Hinrich, Blake
2- Roy, Rudy
3- Deng, Outlaw
4- LMA, Gooden
5- Oden, Przy

Pretty clear upgrades to make your team more suited to winning now. But at the same time, the guys you're getting aren't exactly old, so they'll continue to be part of the core going forward.

As a Bulls fan, I want this team more or less blown up, so I'd consider a deal that moves long term salary off the books and allows for pretty much a complete rebuild. I don't think John Paxson would do this however.

It also raises problems for us. Can Bayless coexist with Rose? Can he replace Gordon? What do we do with Gordon? Too many issues to deal with, and the Bulls haven't even gotten rid of Larry Hughes either.

I do this deal in a heartbeat. It addresses every need we have. Point guard, small forward, AND backup power forward.

Bayless would be a terrible fit for you though. He couldn't play with Rose. If I were the Bulls I would turn around and flip him for something that fits your needs better.

 

[MrJayremmie]

Bayless, Webster, Frye, LaFrentz, Diogu
for
Deng, Hinrich, Gooden

Wow, that is a great deal. I would not want Gooden at all, but Deng and Hinrich? I'll take it. Only bad thing (outside Gooden who i'm not a fan of) is their contracts... but oh well...

I think our 10 man rotation would be...

Hinrich | Blake
Roy | Rudy
Deng | Batum
Aldridge | Outlaw
Oden | Przybilla

that is NICE!

 

[drexlersdad]

Wow, that is a great deal. I would not want Gooden at all, but Deng and Hinrich? I'll take it. Only bad thing (outside Gooden who i'm not a fan of) is their contracts... but oh well...

I think our 10 man rotation would be...

Hinrich | Blake
Roy | Rudy
Deng | Batum
Aldridge | Outlaw
Oden | Przybilla

that is NICE!

we could no doubt swing gooden for a draft pick, and still have our #1, sergio, and koponen and freeland in the wings.

 

[Natebishop3]

I think Gooden would be a good backup if he would accept the role.

 

[drexlersdad]

I think Gooden would be a good backup if he would accept the role.

me too he can rebound, which is what we need from our backup pf.

 

[Natebishop3]

I actually said it yesterday, but I would like to get Hinrich and Gooden from the Bulls. Deng would be a huge bonus. Hinrich and Deng were two key pieces in the team that took the Bulls to the playoffs. If you put them on this team... That would be a VERY intriguing prospect.

Hinrich
Roy
Deng
Aldridge
Oden

Scary.

 

[drexlersdad]

I actually said it yesterday, but I would like to get Hinrich and Gooden from the Bulls. Deng would be a huge bonus. Hinrich and Deng were two key pieces in the team that took the Bulls to the playoffs. If you put them on this team... That would be a VERY intriguing prospect.

Hinrich
Roy
Deng
Aldridge
Oden

Scary.

do it!

 

[MikeDC]

I do this deal in a heartbeat. It addresses every need we have. Point guard, small forward, AND backup power forward.

Bayless would be a terrible fit for you though. He couldn't play with Rose. If I were the Bulls I would turn around and flip him for something that fits your needs better.

Perhaps Rudy instead of Bayless (based on comments in the other thread?) I'd make it provisional on actually getting something done with respect to trading Gordon.

 

[MikeDC]

It's interesting to read how even on the Blazers board Gordon gets widely diverging opinions (even amongst Blazer fans, not just Bulls fans). Some folks think he'd be a great fit with Roy, a further along Bayless. Some think he'd be dreadful.

I'm tend to think he'd not be a great fit, but I started thinking about something. The Blazers could probably give him a try at very little cost. My personal feeling is the Bulls would give him up for not very much. My guess is they'd take Frye or Webster or Outlaw coupled with a complete spare part like Diogu or Rodriguez.

That's probably a lower price than you could get Hinrich or any other player for.
The upside for the Blazers would be considerable. Gordon is a quality player. You can give him a test drive for the remainder of the season. If you like him, you can use your cap space to re-sign him.

If you don't like him, well, what have you given up? More likely than not, you're going to have to let Frye or Outlaw walk in order to have cap space to sign someone. So my thinking would be you've gotten an upgrade heading into the playoffs, and you've got a realistic option to sign the guy next year if you like what you see.

 

[Denny Crane]

If Portland trades for him, Gordon has to agree. Do the Blazers get his bird rights?

 

[Minstrel]

If Portland trades for him, Gordon has to agree. Do the Blazers get his bird rights?

They do.

 

[RR7]

I don't think they do. I think that's part of taking the QO is you get to waive trades. but bird rights don't go with.

 

[slickyseenis]

gordon is a better fit than blake because he has similar limitations on offense but more strengths (more scoring volume, goes to the line more)

 

[Minstrel]

I don't think they do. I think that's part of taking the QO is you get to waive trades. but bird rights don't go with.

Really? That's interesting. I thought QO was considered part of consecutive service time.

 

[Денг Гордон]

No bird rights for Gordon. If he did have bird rights, a trade would be 50% chance of happening.

With Gordon not getting bird rights on the team he gets traded to, no trade with Gordon will likely be made.

 

[MikeDC]

Really? That's interesting. I thought QO was considered part of consecutive service time.

It is if you stay with the same team. If you're traded to another team then it's not. Which is why a player on a QO must consent to any trade.

The CBA FAQ says a player can't be traded:

Without the player's consent when the player is playing under a one-year contract (excluding any option year) and will have Larry Bird or Early Bird rights at the end of the season. This includes first round draft picks following their fourth (option) season, who accept their team's qualifying offer for their fifth season. When the player consents to such a trade, the team loses its Larry Bird/Early Bird rights, and the player is considered a Non-Bird free agent.

Of course, my point in bringing all this up is that, since the Blazers are likely to be well below the cap, it doesn't much matter if he has Bird rights or not. They could still re-sign him.