The Center position and Rob/Ayton/Clingan

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wizenheimer said:
I agree. Blazers need to play their 7th pick

I especially don't agree with the notion of sitting Clingan to play Timelord more and showcase him. Based on history, the more Tiemlord plays the higher the odds are he'll get injured
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Play timelord at the 4
 
inconceivable said:
Play timelord at the 4
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yeah I know...that would be a fall-back position on an unbalanced roster. He'd likely be better than either Clingan or Ayton at defending on the perimeter so maybe, at times, it would work defensively

but it would fail on offense. For his career, 72% of his shots have come at the rim; and 93% have been inside of 10 feet. He lives in the paint

his average shot distance over 6 seasons has been 3.5 feet. Ayton's has been 7.1 feet (Nurkic 5.8 feet). I think Clingan's shot distance will be closer to Timelord's than Ayton's. Playing two of those 3 guys at the same time is just going to clog the paint terribly when Portland is on offense. There won't be good driving lanes or off-ball cuts. Minny's twin towers worked for a couple of reasons. One was that Gobert is one of the premier defenders in NBA history; a 4-time DPOY and 7-time all first team. The other is that KAT can spread the floor. His career average shot distance has been 11.8 feet, but it's been 13 feet the last 2 seasons with Gobert. The Blazers don't have a Gobert on one end, not a KAT on the other
 
CJ_is_Gone said:
I'm not sure that I buy the assessment.

But regardless, I think we ought to sell Reath to the highest bidder & hang onto the other 3
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Why would we do that? Reath is making only making $2m/yr over the next two years. I’m not saying Reath is some un-tradeable piece, but to sell him off rather than an oft-injured guy?

DA/Clingan/Reath is actually has a diverse set of skills that I really like. I’d really like a player like Vando, that would really set this big man rotation off.

In a game where DA doesn’t play and it’s Clingan/Vando/Reath, I’d be really interested to see how a lineup of Ant/Shae/Deni/Vando/Reath would fare, or replace Ant with Scoot if he can ever shoot. The amount of spacing could be immense for someone like Rob, but he’s unreliable. I’d package with Grant in any deal to the Lakers and demand Vando back.
 
League is loaded with talented guards and wings right now. Minnesota has two of the best bigs in the league. There’s not as much talent at the C/PF position. A lot of them are on rookie contracts (Wembenama, who is probably going to win a championship one day) or recently signed and considered a part of the teams core.
 
I'm changing my stance on keeping Ayton.

I kept thinking we need to protect Clingan and bring him along slowly.... But... Why?

Let him get his lumps and foul trouble issues out sooner rather than later. I want us to win a max of 20 games next yr anyway. Might as well start the tank early.

We have Rob Will and Reath as veteran support if DC really needs it. Bigs usually translate to the NBA sooner compared to PGs anyway.

Can we do a three way with the Pels to move Ingram for Ayton, and send BI to another team for picks?
 
illmatic99 said:
I'm changing my stance on keeping Ayton.

I kept thinking we need to protect Clingan and bring him along slowly.... But... Why?

Let him get his lumps and foul trouble issues out sooner rather than later. I want us to win a max of 20 games next yr anyway. Might as well start the tank early.

We have Rob Will and Reath as veteran support if DC really needs it. Bigs usually translate to the NBA sooner compared to PGs anyway.

Can we do a three way with the Pels to move Ingram for Ayton, and send BI to another team for picks?
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Many have suggested previously such a move. BI to the Lakers?
 
illmatic99 said:
I'm changing my stance on keeping Ayton.

I kept thinking we need to protect Clingan and bring him along slowly.... But... Why?

Let him get his lumps and foul trouble issues out sooner rather than later. I want us to win a max of 20 games next yr anyway. Might as well start the tank early.

We have Rob Will and Reath as veteran support if DC really needs it. Bigs usually translate to the NBA sooner compared to PGs anyway.

Can we do a three way with the Pels to move Ingram for Ayton, and send BI to another team for picks?
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It's just a little soon to be handing the keys over to Donovan. Especially considering Timelord hasn't shown he can play more than 30% of a season, and Reath is a gimmicky backup.

Thing is, Ayton starting isn't going to be the reason why the team wins too many games to get a decent lotto pick next year. The team is still stupid young, stupid inexperienced and probably will be jettisoning off Grant and Simons during the season, if not before.
 
illmatic99 said:
I'm changing my stance on keeping Ayton.

I kept thinking we need to protect Clingan and bring him along slowly.... But... Why?

Let him get his lumps and foul trouble issues out sooner rather than later. I want us to win a max of 20 games next yr anyway. Might as well start the tank early.

We have Rob Will and Reath as veteran support if DC really needs it. Bigs usually translate to the NBA sooner compared to PGs anyway.

Can we do a three way with the Pels to move Ingram for Ayton, and send BI to another team for picks?
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Yeah I'd certainly look at moving Ayton if we can get the equivalent of a good FRP or more.

Ayton to NO makes a ton of sense, but yeah Ingram doesn't make sense here. I think Ingram to Cleveland for Garland is good to but then where do we send Garland? Probably would need something going back to Cleveland as well.

I'm just not sure if the Blazers want to move on from all of Grant/Ant/Ayton. IMO it's clearly the best way to build up our long term assets and then push to contend with Sharpe/Scoot. But I could see the Blazers pursuing another dumb dual timelines. This year with more teams tanking it could greatly hurt our draft pick.
 
julius said:
The team is still stupid young, stupid inexperienced and probably will be jettisoning off Grant and Simons during the season, if not before.
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I don't see any issues in this. Is Deandre really adding anything to the culture as a "vet?"
 
illmatic99 said:
I don't see any issues in this. Is Deandre really adding anything to the culture as a "vet?"
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Don't know, but his presence could make it easier for Scoot and Shaedon to grow.

I'm not saying he's untouchable, I'm just saying that throwing Donovan to the wolves isn't necessarily the best thing to do.
 
julius said:
It's just a little soon to be handing the keys over to Donovan. Especially considering Timelord hasn't shown he can play more than 30% of a season, and Reath is a gimmicky backup.

Thing is, Ayton starting isn't going to be the reason why the team wins too many games to get a decent lotto pick next year. The team is still stupid young, stupid inexperienced and probably will be jettisoning off Grant and Simons during the season, if not before.
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Even if Clingan is too young why does that matter? We shouldn't be trying to win anything.

I'd explore trading all of Grant/Ant/Ayton. Once we send out two of them we can demand much more for the third with a much greater chance they play out the season here.

So I wouldn't pass on an Ayton deal - could be possible we can't close either Grant/Simons deal and running all 3 back would be a failure.
 
illmatic99 said:
That's fine, then Rob has to go.
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Would you give up a pick to unload him? I sure wouldn't. He probably doesn't have any trade value until he's proven to be healthy and fully recovered.

I don't understand the posters who want Timelord gone to clear minutes but are emphatic he will be injured again.

If he's injured, then he doesn't take up any minutes.

If he's healthy, he can likely be traded for more at that time than now.

There's no good reason for the Blazers to trade Rob now, we are the perfect team to gamble he can recover from his injury as the downside risk doesn't cost us like it would teams trying to win.
 
SharpesTriumph said:
Would you give up a pick to unload him? I sure wouldn't. He probably doesn't have any trade value until he's proven to be healthy and fully recovered.

I don't understand the posters who want Timelord gone to clear minutes but are emphatic he will be injured again.

If he's injured, then he doesn't take up any minutes.

If he's healthy, he can likely be traded for more at that time than now.

There's no good reason for the Blazers to trade Rob now, we are the perfect team to gamble he can recover from his injury as the downside risk doesn't cost us like it would teams trying to win.
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Hardly think he has negative value on his discount contract. He might not fetch a first on his own, but I certainly don't think we need to add assets to move him.
 
illmatic99 said:
This is my nightmare scenario.
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Yeah, this is my greatest fear too. I'd prefer we just ship out vets even if we get a lower return but fully commit to the rebuild.

Distant 2nd favorite option is just pushing to win now. Ship out Scoot in a package for Garland, maybe ship out a pick for Ingram/Randle/etc and just aim to make a playoff push now.

Can't think of a worse option than running back this roster as is though, that both can't rebuild well nor can it win well.

Blazers - please pick a damn lane!!!
 
HoopsFanAZ said:
IMHO get Clingan out there. In Summer League and in camp and in pre-season, he’ll get initiated. But he won’t know what he doesn’t know. Come regular season and being a draftee national championship winner … when dudes are giving him the business and going by him and thru him … he can really get down to work.

He’s got to get so much better and has a short time frame — 2 years. He needs to become the starting center.
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I know you didn't say this explicitly, but I continue to disagree with the oft expressed notion by fans that the only way for really young guys to get better is PT. Thats all they see, so thats what they equate to developing a player but it's just not so. Clingan is 20 and still filling out his frame. Just time passing will have him becoming stronger and more coordinated. Hiring a personal chef with his millions and getting the right mix in the tank will ensure this physical maturation process goes as well as possible. Right now he has trainers putting him through skills drills and strength/conditioning training and of course there are practices galore where he's going up against other young hungry players. There is a near endless list of Bigs I could name who developed into quality players in this way. I truly doubt that regular PT early in his rookie year has much to do with whether or not Clingan is a starting quality center in 2 years.

Yes DC should get plenty of burn in Summer League and pre-season, but if Williams is healthy and good to go he should get pretty much all of the backup 5 minutes to start the year. He's the better player today and proving his health could greatly benefit the team in the big picture. If Timelord has shown to be healthy the first half of the year (big if I know) and is again a springy big cat protecting the rim, the franchise should get back much better then some back of the 1st round pick at the trade deadline. If he's injured again, he sits and comes off Portland's or some other team's cap in 2 years. Little risk for potentially a big reward

STOMP
 
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STOMP said:
I know you didn't say this explicitly, but I continue to disagree with the oft expressed notion by fans that the only way for really young guys to get better is PT. Thats all they see, so thats what they equate to developing a player but it's just not so.
STOMP
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Jermaine O'Neal says hi

so does Lamarcus Aldridge
 
wizenheimer said:
Jermaine O'Neal says hi

so does Lamarcus Aldridge
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Right, two of the many examples I could point to. Both developed their AS level games in limited minutes/backup roles & not getting big minutes force fed to them before they earned them.

STOMP
 
STOMP said:
Right, two of the many examples I could point to. Both developed their AS level games in limited minutes/backup roles & not getting big minutes force fed to them before they earned them.

STOMP
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right....if you look at their career numbers, it's the opposite of what you claim. In fact, they should have benched Jermaine for 9 years instead of 4...can you imagine how good he would have been in his 10th season?
 
wizenheimer said:
right....if you look at their career numbers, it's the opposite of what you claim. In fact, they should have benched Jermaine for 9 years instead of 4...can you imagine how good he would have been in his 10th season?
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lol, I thought you might be flailing to come up with a counter to my points as thats how you always respond to me... you might note that the only time I ever respond to you is when you've first launched one of these nonsensical responses my way.

Prior to my last post I did look at their career numbers but more importantly I paid attention while their career's were happening. Jermaine started his career as the youngest player in the league at barely 18. He developed his body and game mostly off the court going up against established vets Uncle Cliffy, Rasheed, Sabonis, and Grant in practice. He absolutely wasn't developing his talent much via regular NBA PT as the most he averaged in his 4 seasons as a Blazer was 13 MPG but reports started emerging from other players that had him dominating in practices towards the end of his time as a Blazer. He clearly was ready for a bigger role so Portland management sent him out for Dale Davis coming off an AS appearance in hopes he'd be better at guarding Shaq and get them over the top. At the ripe old age of 22 (2 years older then Clingan) O'Neal moved into a starting role in Indiana and hit the ground running.... how in the world does it make sense to say thats something other then what I claimed? In fact, he is a poster child example for my claim that players can develop outside of NBA PT.

LaMarcus's development was a different story. He came into the league 3 years older then O'Neal at age 21 and as the #2 overall pick. While he had the high release jumper to contribute right away from the high post, he lacked the strength to bang inside for boards and much was made of that in this very chat site and elsewhere. Nonetheless, following a season ending injury to Pryzbilla, the training wheels were off and he was a starter. He manned the high post while Zach banged inside until an irregular heart beat flared up and ended his season. Dude had a PER of over 17 in his rookie year! While his body needed some strength & conditioning, his skills were good to go from day 1 because they were already developed.

Again, my claim is that NBA playing time isn't the ONLY way for young players to develop. Guys can and regularly do develop into much better players via proper nutrition, training and practices.

*edit for grammar

STOMP
 
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Foxx said:
Well at least finally we have a wealth of qualified players in the backcourt and front court now
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Hopefully the key players will also finally be healthy for 70-ish plus games.
 
We have to give Timelord minutes. Run all 3 bigs at pf/c.

It's hilarious reading posters argue, "That won't work." Of course it won't, if you think we have a goal of winning games.

The point is to run up metrics showing we have one of the top 3 interior defenses in the game but can't stop anyone outside 10ft, nor score. Be awesome in this one area and win 25 games on the way to the Flagg lottery.

Then trade Timelord and/or Ayton to a playoff team trying to think of solutions to Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, etc.

Seems pretty obvious really.

We definitely shouldn't trade Timelord now. You don't try to sell a car with a dead battery. Charge it up and cross your fingers that the car runs long enough to get your bag.

Also, don't buy cars from me.
 
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