The CJ Trade; Jalen Duren; & the Pick

[wizenheimer]

just to review that trade:



now, I'm a little foggy on exactly who the Pelicans sent their 2022 pick to. I think it was Charlotte

however, the Blazers had the rights to the Pels pick if it fell in the 5-14 range of the lottery. If it didn't convey, then the Blazers got Milwaukee's 2025 first

and everything was looking good for Portland UNTIL Paul George got Covid just before the play-in game with the Pels, and the Pels squeaked into the playoffs screwing Portland out of the 11th pick....IIRC

now about Duren, also IIRC, the Blazers had him in twice for workouts. They were definitely interested

here's the what if chain: I've always wondered what the Blazers would have done if they had ended up with the 7th and 11th picks in that draft. Odds are still really high that they would have taken Sharpe with the 7th pick. But after creating the space to take Grant into a TPE would Cronin have actually traded the 11th pick for Grant. They wouldn't have had Milwaukee's 2025 first anymore and still had the idiot encumbrance on their 1st round picks to Chicago. Or would they have changed course and taken Duren. Ironically, it was Detroit that wanted Duren badly. And they wanted to dump Grant

how good would the current team with Duren at C, without Grant?

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

Thread 'All things Jalen Duren'

Jun 6, 2022

Going to be a beast…..IMMEDIATELY, defensively

• Mediocre Man
• Replies: 310
• Forum: Portland Trail Blazers

• 

 

[RR7]

Thread 'All things Jalen Duren'

Jun 6, 2022

Going to be a beast…..IMMEDIATELY, defensively

• Mediocre Man
• Replies: 310
• Forum: Portland Trail Blazers

• 

It's funny because the counting stats look good, and I've seen a lot of Detroit fans bash on his defense for being clueless, still.

 

[wizenheimer]

It's funny because the counting stats look good, and I've seen a lot of Detroit fans bash on his defense for being clueless, still.

interesting....I haven't really seem a lot of Detroit so I don't really know

looking at number's: 2nd on the team among rotation players with a 108 DRating that is 2 points better than the team. But he's 9th on the team in DBPM and usually, those two numbers favor big men and mirror each other. So yeah, some questionable numbers there

on the other hand he's 1st on the team in Offensive rating and 2nd in OBPM. now maybe my memory is off but it seems he was touted as a potential great defender in the draft with questionable offense. 4 years in it looks like he's better on offense than on defense.

he's 4th in the nba in rebounds/game (Clingan 9th in 3 fewer minutes); 3rd in offensive reb/game (Clingan 2nd); 6th in total reb rate (Clingan 3rd); 4th in offensive reb rate (Clingan 1st); 11th in defensive rebound rate (Clingan14th)

if Portland had Duren instead of Clingan? They'd make a minor downgrade in rebounding; and maybe a major downgrade in rim protection for much better offensive production and likely more versatility on defense

 

[RR7]

interesting....I haven't really seem a lot of Detroit so I don't really know

looking at number's: 2nd on the team among rotation players with a 108 DRating that is 2 points better than the team. But he's 9th on the team in DBPM and usually, those two numbers favor big men and mirror each other. So yeah, some questionable numbers there

on the other hand he's 1st on the team in Offensive rating and 2nd in OBPM. now maybe my memory is off but it seems he was touted as a potential great defender in the draft with questionable offense. 4 years in it looks like he's better on offense than on defense.

he's 4th in the nba in rebounds/game (Clingan 9th in 3 fewer minutes); 3rd in offensive reb/game (Clingan 2nd); 6th in total reb rate (Clingan 3rd); 4th in offensive reb rate (Clingan 1st); 11th in defensive rebound rate (Clingan14th)

if Portland had Duren instead of Clingan? They'd make a minor downgrade in rebounding; and maybe a major downgrade in rim protection for much better offensive production and likely more versatility on defense

Yeah, I've unfortunately missed both of our games against them, and haven't seen much in previous years. Strictly going off of what I've seen fans saying. Could be one of those Whiteside sort of defenders, leaves guys open to chase blocks? I'm not sure. I liked him a lot as a target, (now someone's gonna pull the old thread with me bashing him, watch, lol). Unsure how different we'd be looking right now, or how he would have been brought along to develop on our team.

 

[wizenheimer]

Yeah, I've unfortunately missed both of our games against them, and haven't seen much in previous years. Strictly going off of what I've seen fans saying. Could be one of those Whiteside sort of defenders, leaves guys open to chase blocks? I'm not sure. I liked him a lot as a target, (now someone's gonna pull the old thread with me bashing him, watch, lol). Unsure how different we'd be looking right now, or how he would have been brought along to develop on our team.

I was pretty much against drafting Clingan. I just didn't think much of drop-coverage C's. In many ways I still don't

but Clingan has proven me wrong with the impact he has. He's a major presence in the paint on both ends of the floor and I'm just fine with him being a 27-29 minute C for the next few years. What Portland needs backing up Clingan is a PF/C hybrid that can be more switchable on defense and more of a floor-stretcher on offense while still being solid on the glass. Timelord kind of fits that mold but it seems only a matter of time till he's injured. And I seriously doubt Portland re-signs him. Maybe they trade him by the deadline

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

just to review that trade:

View attachment 78782

now, I'm a little foggy on exactly who the Pelicans sent their 2022 pick to. I think it was Charlotte

however, the Blazers had the rights to the Pels pick if it fell in the 5-14 range of the lottery. If it didn't convey, then the Blazers got Milwaukee's 2025 first

and everything was looking good for Portland UNTIL Paul George got Covid just before the play-in game with the Pels, and the Pels squeaked into the playoffs screwing Portland out of the 11th pick....IIRC

now about Duren, also IIRC, the Blazers had him in twice for workouts. They were definitely interested

here's the what if chain: I've always wondered what the Blazers would have done if they had ended up with the 7th and 11th picks in that draft. Odds are still really high that they would have taken Sharpe with the 7th pick. But after creating the space to take Grant into a TPE would Cronin have actually traded the 11th pick for Grant. They wouldn't have had Milwaukee's 2025 first anymore and still had the idiot encumbrance on their 1st round picks to Chicago. Or would they have changed course and taken Duren. Ironically, it was Detroit that wanted Duren badly. And they wanted to dump Grant

how good would the current team with Duren at C, without Grant?

Much better i think.
Hindsite is always 20/20 though.

 

[HailBlazers]

I was pretty much against drafting Clingan. I just didn't think much of drop-coverage C's. In many ways I still don't

but Clingan has proven me wrong with the impact he has. He's a major presence in the paint on both ends of the floor and I'm just fine with him being a 27-29 minute C for the next few years. What Portland needs backing up Clingan is a PF/C hybrid that can be more switchable on defense and more of a floor-stretcher on offense while still being solid on the glass. Timelord kind of fits that mold but it seems only a matter of time till he's injured. And I seriously doubt Portland re-signs him. Maybe they trade him by the deadline

He's quickly becoming the heart and soul of this team. He is the only champion of note, no?

 

[PCmor7]

IIRC, I was very much pro-Duren until watching him in several games more intently late in the season and into the conference and NCAA tournaments, and I soured on him because, while the athletic ability and motor were top tier, he was more raw than most top prospects fundamentally. I didn't think he'd be able to get up to speed with that enough by the time of his extension/second contract.

He's developed more quickly than I thought he would. He plays above his fundamentals, had improved his fundamentals and has the ability to get even better because he still has soft spots in that part of his game and still has some stretches where he seems to disappear.

In retrospect, knowing what he's turned into, he'd have been a great piece for the Blazers, but, knowing what I knew at the time, I think he was a boom-or-bust prospect whose ledger seemed more likely to bust.

 

[Strenuus]

IIRC, I was very much pro-Duren until watching him in several games more intently late in the season and into the conference and NCAA tournaments, and I soured on him because, while the athletic ability and motor were top tier, he was more raw than most top prospects fundamentally. I didn't think he'd be able to get up to speed with that enough by the time of his extension/second contract.

He's developed more quickly than I thought he would. He plays above his fundamentals, had improved his fundamentals and has the ability to get even better because he still has soft spots in that part of his game and still has some stretches where he seems to disappear.

In retrospect, knowing what he's turned into, he'd have been a great piece for the Blazers, but, knowing what I knew at the time, I think he was a boom-or-bust prospect whose ledger seemed more likely to bust.

Im always of the mindset that just because someone boomed in one place doesn't mean he would have boomed anywhere.

There's a reason they coined the phrase "needing a new change of scenery".

 

[SharpesTriumph]

We basically gave Detroit everything for Grant that they used to get Duren. I remember at the time thinking the Duren selection was so much better even though getting Grant was much better value than the Roco/Nance/etc type of vet additions we had done. Writing was on the wall the Dame era was over when getting Grant so a rebuild would have been much better. We needed youth with upside, not irrelevant vets to rebuilding like Grant.

If we were going to actually build around Dame we shouldn't have done the Clippers/CJ trades. We should have got better vets back instead. While some of these moves made sense in isolation they never fit one strategic direction.

To this day we're basically paying the price.

The problem with the Blazers half ass attempts at rebuilding and fence strateling is it has resulted in our rebuild going on much longer with many more losing seasons and still not having clear playoff talent. Compared to franchises like the Thunder or Rockets that only had a couple years in the lottery then we're back in the playoffs

 

[STOMP]

Thread 'All things Jalen Duren'

Jun 6, 2022

Going to be a beast…..IMMEDIATELY, defensively

• Mediocre Man
• Replies: 310
• Forum: Portland Trail Blazers

• 

Back when that thread was active, I felt almost like I'd missed some important fact(s) about Duren that had so many down on him. The more I researched the prospects in the 2021 class, the more I was convinced he was going to be great. Dude was huge, very athletic, coordinated, had a great team first attitude & was just 17 years old, yet the most adement voices participating were calling him a waste of a pick & comparing him to past busts with complete conviction. It's a funny and informative reread

Duren just turned 22 last month and will be an All Star this year. Two days ago the Pistons reupped him for 5 years 200M

STOMP

 

[Sheldon Shape]

We basically gave Detroit everything for Grant that they used to get Duren. I remember at the time thinking the Duren selection was so much better even though getting Grant was much better value than the Roco/Nance/etc type of vet additions we had done. Writing was on the wall the Dame era was over when getting Grant so a rebuild would have been much better. We needed youth with upside, not irrelevant vets to rebuilding like Grant.

If we were going to actually build around Dame we shouldn't have done the Clippers/CJ trades. We should have got better vets back instead. While some of these moves made sense in isolation they never fit one strategic direction.

To this day we're basically paying the price.

The problem with the Blazers half ass attempts at rebuilding and fence strateling is it has resulted in our rebuild going on much longer with many more losing seasons and still not having clear playoff talent. Compared to franchises like the Thunder or Rockets that only had a couple years in the lottery then we're back in the playoffs

You're severely underestimating how important moving money off the books is. We couldn't have taken the Walker deal because our front office likes to stay up to the tax line. Us trading for the pick that would have been Duren was impossible at the time.

 

[RR7]

Duren just turned 22 last month and will be an All Star this year. Two days ago the Pistons reupped him for 5 years 200M

STOMP

This is incorrect. There is a deadline for rookie extensions, which has passed. He will be a RFA in the off-season.

 

[STOMP]

This is incorrect. There is a deadline for rookie extensions, which has passed. He will be a RFA in the off-season.

Oops my bad. I must have misread an article I read. The 40M per is now what he’s expected to command

STOMP

 

[SharpesTriumph]

You're severely underestimating how important moving money off the books is. We couldn't have taken the Walker deal because our front office likes to stay up to the tax line. Us trading for the pick that would have been Duren was impossible at the time.

We absorbed Grants deal with a trade exception. That gave Detroit a trade exception they used to take on salary in the Duren deal.

We could have absorbed the salary in the Duren deal instead of taking on Grants salary.

 

[inconceivable]

He's quickly becoming the heart and soul of this team. He is the only champion of note, no?

Holiday

 

[inconceivable]

drafting cj ahead of jokic has got to be right there with picking bowie over jordan or barkley

 

[SheedSoNasty]

drafting cj ahead of jokic has got to be right there with picking bowie over jordan or barkley

Not sure if this was meant to have green font because the situations are very different. Everyone passed up on Jokic in the first and half of the second round.

 

[wizenheimer]

drafting cj ahead of jokic has got to be right there with picking bowie over jordan or barkley

CJ was in the 2013 draft; Jokic was in the 2014 draft

Portland didn't have a pick in the 2014 draft. They would have picked at #24 but they had traded that pick along with the 2011 first (#19 - Tobias Harris) + Przybilla and Cunningham for Gerald Wallace

Portland's giant missed opportunity was drafting CJ ahead of Giannis

 

[inconceivable]

CJ was in the 2013 draft; Jokic was in the 2014 draft

Portland didn't have a pick in the 2014 draft. They would have picked at #24 but they had traded that pick along with the 2011 first (#19 - Tobias Harris) + Przybilla and Cunningham for Gerald Wallace

Portland's giant missed opportunity was drafting CJ ahead of Giannis

You're right. I'm wrong. We don't have a pick in the 2014 draft, otherwise Olshey would have picked Jokic for sure

 

[wizenheimer]

You're right. I'm wrong. We don't have a pick in the 2014 draft, otherwise Olshey would have picked Jokic for sure

actually, Blazers would have had the 24th pick; and that was used on Shabazz Napier....a 6' SG who Olshey later traded for. I'd bet Olshey would have drafted Napier to add to his stable of undersized guards. The he could have achieved his ultimate goal and wet dream:

PG - Napier
SG - Dame
SF - CJ
PF - Powell
C - Meyers