The D'Antoni effect

[Minstrel]

His last season in Dallas wasn't nearly as good as his years in Phoenix. That's probably why Cuban let him go.

Nash put up a 20.5 PER, with fantastic scoring efficiency and assist percentage, in his usual minutes per game. Cuban's already admitted it was a terrible mistake to let Nash depart.

 

[RR7]

But the only way to see if he would be worth a 30/3 is by trading for him and if that requires dealing away Batum, it just doesn't seem worth it.

me and just about everyone else agrees with you.

 

[Minstrel]

When one person asks if 30/3 is worth it for an All-Star player and another person posts some projected stats for Nash as a Blazer asking if that would be worthwhile, then yes I'm going to mention the All-Star game.

You're getting caught up in semantics. It doesn't matter whether a player goes to the All Star game...what matters is if he is All Star caliber. Basically every year since 2000 has been All Star caliber, though a few are borderline.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

He gets the most out of his players.

Ah, to have a coach with more than one play.

 

[Natebishop3]

Making the allstar game, and playing at an allstar level are two separate things. Aldridge played at an allstar level last season, but didn't make the allstar game. Nash would be a Godsend to Aldridge. Aldridge would have more room in the paint and our team would have one of the best minds in the game today.

Look at how CP3 made the Clippers so much better. And he is only averaging 8.5 assists per game. Go figure.

14 ppg and 8 assists per game would not be playing at an All-Star level if those were the kind of numbers he put up with us. Paul is averaging 19.5, 8.5 and 2.2 steals. Those are All-Star numbers.

 

[magnifier661]

But the only way to see if he would be worth a 30/3 is by trading for him and if that requires dealing away Batum, it just doesn't seem worth it.

No way we trade Nash for Batum. Don't believe the rumors. But if we can get him for pieces like Wallace, Felton, Matthews, Thomas, E Will, and or Thomas; then why not. If we can't, then C'est la vie.

 

[magnifier661]

14 ppg and 8 assists per game would not be playing at an All-Star level if those were the kind of numbers he put up with us. Paul is averaging 19.5, 8.5 and 2.2 steals. Those are All-Star numbers.

Well that's good because Nash is averaging 10+ assists per game and 14.5 PPG, shooting at 54% and 40% from three. This year. The year that matters, the year on a shitty team and not in a D' Antoni system like you've mentioned.

 

[RR7]

Well that's good because Nash is averaging 10+ assists per game and 14.5 PPG, shooting at 54% and 40% from three. This year. The year that matters, the year on a shitty team and not in a D' Antoni system like you've mentioned.

and, at the exact same pace we currently run.

 

[Natebishop3]

You're getting caught up in semantics. It doesn't matter whether a player goes to the All Star game...what matters is if he is All Star caliber. Basically every year since 2000 has been All Star caliber, though a few are borderline.

I didn't say he wasn't All-Star caliber. I said that D'Antoni's system made him better. In the other thread I actually said that he went from a borderline All-Star player to an MVP caliber player. That has really been my contention all along is that the SSOL system, the D'Antoni system, has made Nash better. It made him better than he was in Dallas, and I think it has made him better than he would be in Portland. That's why I listed Felton's stats, just as a point to show that the system makes players better. I'm not saying Nash is a bad player. I'm not saying he wasn't an All-Star caliber player. I'm saying his stats were inflated. He went from an All-Star to an MVP. If he is brought to Portland, will he go from an All-Star to an average starter?

 

[magnifier661]

I didn't say he wasn't All-Star caliber. I said that D'Antoni's system made him better. In the other thread I actually said that he went from a borderline All-Star player to an MVP caliber player. That has really been my contention all along is that the SSOL system, the D'Antoni system, has made Nash better. It made him better than he was in Dallas, and I think it has made him better than he would be in Portland. That's why I listed Felton's stats, just as a point to show that the system makes players better. I'm not saying Nash is a bad player. I'm not saying he wasn't an All-Star caliber player. I'm saying his stats were inflated. He went from an All-Star to an MVP. If he is brought to Portland, will he go from an All-Star to an average starter?

But we aren't asking for MVP Nash. We want the great shooting, good leader, awesome assist getting Nash that is currently in the NBA.

 

[Natebishop3]

But we aren't asking for MVP Nash. We want the great shooting, good leader, awesome assist getting Nash that is currently in the NBA.

At. What. Cost?

 

[Minstrel]

I didn't say he wasn't All-Star caliber. I said that D'Antoni's system made him better. In the other thread I actually said that he went from a borderline All-Star player to an MVP caliber player. That has really been my contention all along is that the SSOL system, the D'Antoni system, has made Nash better.

Your implication is that it made him much better, which I don't think is borne out by the stats at all. It made him slightly better, but every player can be made slightly better by tailoring a system to their talents. At this point in time, though, I don't think you need a particular coach or system, because Nash now knows how to play to bring out his best. Credit that to D'Antoni if you'd like, but Nash was close to as good in his final three seasons in Dallas.

 

[RR7]

not batum, again, which everyone has agreed upon, basically. the salary we can figure out once we see how he plays here.

 

[magnifier661]

At. What. Cost?

I think it's gonna be Wallace, E Will and Felton. For Nash and Warrick/Childress or Frye

 

[magnifier661]

This is what I was thinking; which will give Phoenix a young promising talent in E Will.

E Will, Felton and Wallace for Nash and Frye

 

[Natebishop3]

Why would they do that though? They'd end up letting Wallace and Felton go after this season, and EWill would be the only one they kept after giving up Nash...

 

[RR7]

Why would they do that though? They'd end up letting Wallace and Felton go after this season, and EWill would be the only one they kept after giving up Nash...

they lose frye's salary, gain a prospect in EWill, gain more cap space this offseason. Likely losing nash anyways.

 

[Natebishop3]

Your implication is that it made him much better, which I don't think is borne out by the stats at all. It made him slightly better, but every player can be made slightly better by tailoring a system to their talents. At this point in time, though, I don't think you need a particular coach or system, because Nash now knows how to play to bring out his best. Credit that to D'Antoni if you'd like, but Nash was close to as good in his final three seasons in Dallas.

I think going from 9 assists per game to consistently putting up 11 assists per game is pretty significant. He also saw an increase in numbers across the board. Maybe some weren't as drastic as others, but to take someone from borderline All-Star to MVP is pretty impressive I think.

 

[magnifier661]

Why would they do that though? They'd end up letting Wallace and Felton go after this season, and EWill would be the only one they kept after giving up Nash...

What RR7 said. They just saved a lot of cap space and still have a young prospect in E Will. We won't give them Batum, but I think we would give them E Will. And personally, I think E Will will do great in Phoenix. It may look like shit at first, but may help them in the long run.

 

[magnifier661]

Also, Wallace seems like he would play for another 3 years. He is still a 16 PER player.

 

[magnifier661]

Also after March 1st; you can offer Rhino too. So you can replace their Frye with Rhino; whom is very capable of being a legit back up PF to Aldridge.

 

[Minstrel]

I think going from 9 assists per game to consistently putting up 11 assists per game is pretty significant. He also saw an increase in numbers across the board. Maybe some weren't as drastic as others, but to take someone from borderline All-Star to MVP is pretty impressive I think.

It's not because you're not factoring in pace. They played faster, so they had more possessions...more possessions even at the same level of play will lead to more of everything.

Pace-adjusted or pace-neutral numbers, like PER or scoring efficiency, tells a different story. Nash was never MVP-level, but he was excellent...both before and after working with D'Antoni. He was probably a bit better with D'Antoni, but that's the effect of good coaching...figuring out how to get the most out of your best players. He didn't improve by leaps and bounds, by any means.

 

[Natebishop3]

It's not because you're not factoring in pace. They played faster, so they had more possessions...more possessions even at the same level of play will lead to more of everything.

Pace-adjusted or pace-neutral numbers, like PER or scoring efficiency, tells a different story. Nash was never MVP-level, but he was excellent...both before and after working with D'Antoni. He was probably a bit better with D'Antoni, but that's the effect of good coaching...figuring out how to get the most out of your best players. He didn't improve by leaps and bounds, by any means.

But.... isn't that what I'm arguing? That the system inflated his numbers?

 

[Minstrel]

But.... isn't that what I'm arguing? That the system inflated his numbers?

His raw stats, yes. You seem to be arguing that the Nash we saw in Phoenix is not the "real Nash" and only an illusion of the system. The Nash we see in Phoenix is the real Nash and the Nash we'll be getting. If you're arguing that we won't be getting an MVP-caliber player, sure, I agree, but I don't think anyone was thinking we would. Nash was never MVP-caliber. We will be getting what Nash is and has always been (well, always since the light clicked on in Dallas)...an excellent All-Star-caliber point guard.

My point is that there's no D'Antoni effect in terms of Nash getting much better. If you want to say that there's a D'Antoni effect in causing the casual fans and media to overrate players, I can agree with that, since most people don't seem to understand the effects of pace.

 

[B-Roy]

For a 38 year old point guard who we've yet to see in our system with our team and our coach? Yes, that's a risky investment.

Couldn't you say that about every player?

LeBron, yikes, wonder if he'll suck under Nate.

Wade, yikes, wonder if he'll suck under Nate.

Howard, yikes, wonder if he'll suck under Nate.

Yadda yadda yadda...

 

[PapaG]

He gets the most out of his players.

Ah, to have a coach with more than one play.

It took a D-League scrub balling his ass off to save D'Antoni from being fired, yet still the Knicks are hovering at about .500. Hell, he still may be if Lin comes back to earth.

If the Blazers had a front-line of Anthony, Stoudemire, and Chandler (three Team USA members), with Landry Fields too, and were 8 games under .500, this place would have been going apeshit about how D'Antoni is a terrible coach, and how it was Nash who made him look good in PHX.

Which, I think is closer to the truth than it is D'Antoni being some sort of elite coach.

 

[PapaG]

and, at the exact same pace we currently run.

Actually, Portland's 8th in pace this year, and PHX is 13th. At least those were the stats from yesterday.

 

[RR7]

It took a D-League scrub balling his ass off to save D'Antoni from being fired, yet still the Knicks are hovering at about .500. Hell, he still may be if Lin comes back to earth.

If the Blazers had a front-line of Anthony, Stoudemire, and Chandler (three Team USA members), with Landry Fields too, and were 8 games under .500, this place would have been going apeshit about how D'Antoni is a terrible coach, and how it was Nash who made him look good in PHX.

Which, I think is close to the truth than it is D'Antoni being some sort of elite coach.

It is funny how quickly he went from close to being fired, and people realizing he is overrated, and then all of a sudden, the he is a coaching genius shit started up again.

As for pace, I was using basketball reference, that showed us both at 92.3 possessions per 48. Possible another sight had it different, though.

 

[Natebishop3]

Couldn't you say that about every player?

LeBron, yikes, wonder if he'll suck under Nate.

Wade, yikes, wonder if he'll suck under Nate.

Howard, yikes, wonder if he'll suck under Nate.

Yadda yadda yadda...

Funny how all three of those guys are in their 20s, in their primes, and two of them are ball-dominant wings that would fit perfectly into nateball. I don't see how LeBron, Wade, or Howard compare to a guy who is 38 years old and has enjoyed a much different offense from the one that Nate has run for most of his coaching career.

 

[PapaG]

It is funny how quickly he went from close to being fired, and people realizing he is overrated, and then all of a sudden, the he is a coaching genius shit started up again.

As for pace, I was using basketball reference, that showed us both at 92.3 possessions per 48. Possible another sight had it different, though.

I was using Hollinger's stats. Roughly the same, anyhow.

PDX - 94.8
PHX - 94.5

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/paceFactor

What's worth noting is that while the Blazers are also 8th in OFF EFF, PHX falls to 17th.

NYK are 2nd in pace, and 24th in OFF EFF. Yep, D'Antoni is a real genius.