The Dark Knight

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L @ Jul 26 2008, 02:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style="color:#FFFFFF">I guess I would be part of the minority then, since I'm not one who believes that I should kill others in order to live on. And if i were on the citizen boat, I would vote "no" not only because of that but also of the possibility that the Joker was lying and that the device might set off the bomb on the ship I am on. What happened with the ships may have been unrealistic but I for one am glad that neither one got blown up. Hell, one of those ships may have been full of criminals but they are still human beings goddamnit
And i think the fall of Dent seems pretty logical if you think about it. When he figured out Rachel was the next target he fumed with rage and was about to kill a man. More or less, he felt he could not live on without her. And then when she died, it was no surprise that he was so angry he could be manipulated. The Joker just gave him that extra push. The Joker was able to convince Dent that the cops and Batman would put looking for Gotham's "white knight" before some lawyer he loved. Got to remember that Dent never knew the full situation and the fact that Batman was looking for Rachel first, not him. The Joker was able to figure out that Batman had some affection for Rachel and assumed he would look for her(this was pretty much confirmed during the interrogation scene). With that information, he was able to lead Batman in the wrong direction.</span></div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Well it's not about being part of the minority or not. The point is what makes a film realistic, or too tacky (now If Batman had other types of supernatural powers, the direction of the film would be different and I might buy this). You can vote no, but you would know that the other boat is still screwed. If this is supposed to be a Batman (not Anime) movie either blow up the other boat or just have the Joker play it off as a huge prank to piss people off. However, the Joker was serious, and he was indeed going to blow up both ships until some BS happened about the Batman stopping him just a few seconds before. It wasn't handled well in my opinion, and it made the last fight with the Joker kind of bore me. If the Batman was going to stop the Joker, it should have been before the midnight time limit, and in a more interesting fashion (Wow, dogs attacking Batman? Who cares).

In the interrogation scene, when the Joker told Batman he could "only pick one", I feel that he has no idea what he's talking about. He could have told the Batman that it will be a close call, but otherwise what he said didn't make sense. Gordon and his cops did look for Rachel, and Harvey knew this in the end as well. The Batman is that much faster in his vehicle/bike? It doesn't seem so, he just knows how to evade people well when he needs to, and knows how to hide from the police/etc. I mean if it really is about speed, Gordon or someone could have ridden a motorcycle and gotten to Rachel a minute before, making all the difference. These kind of things don't seem to be explained.

The Joker asking Harvey to kill him seemed to go against his goals as well (since he has so much fun with Batman, and has no idea if Harvey will turn out to be a Super Psycho like him). The way Harvey went about killing his victims was kind of bland to me, it could have been done a bit more artistically and that part should have been fleshed out a little more (his evil arch seems to go by so quickly). The dialogue was boring to me at various points, all this keeps the film from being historic.</span>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 26 2008, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Well it's not about being part of the minority or not. The point is what makes a film realistic, or too tacky (now If Batman had other types of supernatural powers, the direction of the film would be different and I might buy this). You can vote no, but you would know that the other boat is still screwed. If this is supposed to be a Batman (not Anime) movie either blow up the other boat or just have the Joker play it off as a huge prank to piss people off. However, the Joker was serious, and he was indeed going to blow up both ships until some BS happened about the Batman stopping him just a few seconds before. It wasn't handled well in my opinion, and it made the last fight with the Joker kind of bore me. If the Batman was going to stop the Joker, it should have been before the midnight time limit, and in a more interesting fashion (Wow, dogs attacking Batman? Who cares). </span></div>
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
The Joker had the public so terrified, that they believed what he said, regardless. They knew he was going to blow something up. Dogs were interesting, because they are blindly loyal. Remember how the bank robbery went down. Everyone was out for themselves, and at the end of it, the Joker was the only one of the robbers to jump into the getaway bus. Also, dogs have a keen sense of smell, which is good when your opponent can sneak up on you from anywhere. The Joker seemed to have all his bases covered.
</span>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>In the interrogation scene, when the Joker told Batman he could "only pick one", I feel that he has no idea what he's talking about. He could have told the Batman that it will be a close call, but otherwise what he said didn't make sense. Gordon and his cops did look for Rachel, and Harvey knew this in the end as well. The Batman is that much faster in his vehicle/bike? It doesn't seem so, he just knows how to evade people well when he needs to, and knows how to hide from the police/etc. I mean if it really is about speed, Gordon or someone could have ridden a motorcycle and gotten to Rachel a minute before, making all the difference. These kind of things don't seem to be explained.
</span></div><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
Also, the cops already have squad cars driving around every area of a city, or at least closer to the scene that Gordon was. They aren't all sitting at the police station all night. Yeah, the police could certainly have been on the scene faster than Batman.
</span>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
The Joker asking Harvey to kill him seemed to go against his goals as well (since he has so much fun with Batman, and has no idea if Harvey will turn out to be a Super Psycho like him). The way Harvey went about killing his victims was kind of bland to me, it could have been done a bit more artistically and that part should have been fleshed out a little more (his evil arch seems to go by so quickly). The dialogue was boring to me at various points, all this keeps the film from being historic.</span></div>
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
Did the Joker load the gun? I didn't notice. If they made the kill seems more graphic, the movie might have had to get a different rating. I noticed that they never got real gorey with any of the kills. Often, they would swing the camera to a different look while someone would pull the trigger or slash someone at close range. Harvey killing people in cold blood was crazy enough for me. They had built him up as such a good person up till that point. It was a complete flip for him. We kind of expect that the Joker will be killing people, so they made his murders more interesting.
</span>
 
My thoughts:

Regarding the boat situation- <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I think you guys are forgetting the fact that people were afraid to 'pull the trigger' because they didn't trust the Joker to be true to his word. Remember that the Joker misinformed Batman when he told him that Rachel was at the location where Dent really was. Granted, I don't think the general public had knowledge of this particular piece of information but its certainly in the back of the audience' mind and assuming the public did have knowledge of the Joker then its safe to say they may have feared for their own lives if they were to press the button. It certainly seems logical that the Joker would tell the people that their detonator was for the other ship but in reality it was for their own ship- for the Joker to prove a point about human nature.</span>

As for the Joker in the hospital- <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>He wanted Dent to kill him because he believed it would have screwed with people's hope. Throughout the movie the Joker seems to be trying to rip down everything that people find hope in. He also generally shows that he doesn't care whether he lives or dies and actually would take pleasure in having Batman or Dent kill him and in doing so break their moral code not to kill. The Joker seemed to believe that having the golden boy, Harvey Dent kill him would "go against 'the plan'" and thus cause more chaos and, more importantly, it would have corrupted the public's white knight. The Joker knew Dent was emotional after Rachel died and he successfully convinced Dent that he was "just a dog" (a term and theme that comes up multiple times throughout the movie) and that Dent should really be mad at the "schemers". IMO this is an understandable explanation as to why Dent goes on the killing spree but not a very good one, as someone else mentioned before Dent's spiral wasn't that well done.

So in regard to Joker's "goal" that huevon referenced I think this scene did fit his goals. Hell even in this same scene he said hes not a guy with a plan, he just "does" stuff as it comes to him. His ultimate goal as I understand it is to destroy the public's hope, tear down the "heroes", and as Alfred said "some men just want to watch the world burn"- that line isn't in there by coincidence. The Joker repeatedly wanted to be killed by Batman just because he wanted Batman to go against his one rule (the "hit me part", he was laughing during the interrogation scene, and laughed as he was being thrown off the building). His goal isn't just to mess with Batman- its to keep pushing the public (and the heroes) to do something 'immoral' or just generally sinister. </span>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Jul 31 2008, 01:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 26 2008, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Well it's not about being part of the minority or not. The point is what makes a film realistic, or too tacky (now If Batman had other types of supernatural powers, the direction of the film would be different and I might buy this). You can vote no, but you would know that the other boat is still screwed. If this is supposed to be a Batman (not Anime) movie either blow up the other boat or just have the Joker play it off as a huge prank to piss people off. However, the Joker was serious, and he was indeed going to blow up both ships until some BS happened about the Batman stopping him just a few seconds before. It wasn't handled well in my opinion, and it made the last fight with the Joker kind of bore me. If the Batman was going to stop the Joker, it should have been before the midnight time limit, and in a more interesting fashion (Wow, dogs attacking Batman? Who cares). </span></div>
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
The Joker had the public so terrified, that they believed what he said, regardless. They knew he was going to blow something up. Dogs were interesting, because they are blindly loyal. Remember how the bank robbery went down. Everyone was out for themselves, and at the end of it, the Joker was the only one of the robbers to jump into the getaway bus. Also, dogs have a keen sense of smell, which is good when your opponent can sneak up on you from anywhere. The Joker seemed to have all his bases covered.
</span></div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
The Dogs have a good sense of smell but they're not formidable opponents, they're more like a nuisance. I don't think they belonged at the end of an epic movie like this one.

The civilians on the boat must realize that they are now probably ****ed. Either they blow up the other boat, or if they fear the trigger will actually blow up their ship and don't do anything, the Joker will just blow them up for not following orders. There is little reason to not pull that trigger.</span>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>In the interrogation scene, when the Joker told Batman he could "only pick one", I feel that he has no idea what he's talking about. He could have told the Batman that it will be a close call, but otherwise what he said didn't make sense. Gordon and his cops did look for Rachel, and Harvey knew this in the end as well. The Batman is that much faster in his vehicle/bike? It doesn't seem so, he just knows how to evade people well when he needs to, and knows how to hide from the police/etc. I mean if it really is about speed, Gordon or someone could have ridden a motorcycle and gotten to Rachel a minute before, making all the difference. These kind of things don't seem to be explained.
</span></div><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
Also, the cops already have squad cars driving around every area of a city, or at least closer to the scene that Gordon was. They aren't all sitting at the police station all night. Yeah, the police could certainly have been on the scene faster than Batman.
</span></div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Indeed, this just makes his comment about only saving "one", a bigger plot hole to me.</span>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
The Joker asking Harvey to kill him seemed to go against his goals as well (since he has so much fun with Batman, and has no idea if Harvey will turn out to be a Super Psycho like him). The way Harvey went about killing his victims was kind of bland to me, it could have been done a bit more artistically and that part should have been fleshed out a little more (his evil arch seems to go by so quickly). The dialogue was boring to me at various points, all this keeps the film from being historic.</span></div>
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
Did the Joker load the gun? I didn't notice. If they made the kill seems more graphic, the movie might have had to get a different rating. I noticed that they never got real gorey with any of the kills. Often, they would swing the camera to a different look while someone would pull the trigger or slash someone at close range. Harvey killing people in cold blood was crazy enough for me. They had built him up as such a good person up till that point. It was a complete flip for him. We kind of expect that the Joker will be killing people, so they made his murders more interesting.
</span>
</div>


<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Alright, you have a good point about the PG-13 rating they were aiming for, at the same time the Joker finished off his enemies in a more fascinating manner, while staying within the guidelines. They built him up well as a "good" person, it is his downfall that is not so logical or interesting to me. He certainly has the right look for a villain though. :]</span>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Run BJM @ Jul 31 2008, 02:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>My thoughts:

Regarding the boat situation- <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I think you guys are forgetting the fact that people were afraid to 'pull the trigger' because they didn't trust the Joker to be true to his word. Remember that the Joker misinformed Batman when he told him that Rachel was at the location where Dent really was. Granted, I don't think the general public had knowledge of this particular piece of information but its certainly in the back of the audience' mind and assuming the public did have knowledge of the Joker then its safe to say they may have feared for their own lives if they were to press the button. It certainly seems logical that the Joker would tell the people that their detonator was for the other ship but in reality it was for their own ship- for the Joker to prove a point about human nature.</span></div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> That's a deep way of thinking Run, though it would have been nice for a person on the boat to mention this. I addressed the trigger concerns in the post above.</span>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>As for the Joker in the hospital- <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>He wanted Dent to kill him because he believed it would have screwed with people's hope. Throughout the movie the Joker seems to be trying to rip down everything that people find hope in. He also generally shows that he doesn't care whether he lives or dies and actually would take pleasure in having Batman or Dent kill him and in doing so break their moral code not to kill. The Joker seemed to believe that having the golden boy, Harvey Dent kill him would "go against 'the plan'" and thus cause more chaos and, more importantly, it would have corrupted the public's white knight. The Joker knew Dent was emotional after Rachel died and he successfully convinced Dent that he was "just a dog" (a term and theme that comes up multiple times throughout the movie) and that Dent should really be mad at the "schemers". IMO this is an understandable explanation as to why Dent goes on the killing spree but not a very good one, as someone else mentioned before Dent's spiral wasn't that well done.</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Ah I see what you mean now. You see it as a plausible, but not very good reason for Dent's killing spree.

My opinion is that it is not even "understandable". How could the Joker convince Harvey that he's just a "dog"? He's wasting his breath. Just let Mr. Two-Face flip his coin and beg for luck.

It is a huge leap of faith for Joker to even approach Harvey in that situation with suicidal tendencies, and with the superobjective (yes that is a real word
) of having Dent turn out to be a bigger villain. It seemed ridiculous to me for that to occur in such a short time span. If the Joker had been given more time (maybe weeks or months), to twist Dent's mind, then that would be a different story.</span>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>So in regard to Joker's "goal" that huevon referenced I think this scene did fit his goals. Hell even in this same scene he said hes not a guy with a plan, he just "does" stuff as it comes to him. His ultimate goal as I understand it is to destroy the public's hope, tear down the "heroes", and as Alfred said "some men just want to watch the world burn"- that line isn't in there by coincidence. The Joker repeatedly wanted to be killed by Batman just because he wanted Batman to go against his one rule (the "hit me part", he was laughing during the interrogation scene, and laughed as he was being thrown off the building). His goal isn't just to mess with Batman- its to keep pushing the public (and the heroes) to do something 'immoral' or just generally sinister. </span></div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> I think he just contradicted himself. If he really wants to cause the most damage, then he can't just offer himself on a platter for Dent without knowing the future beforehand. In fact I would say he made various elaborate plans during the movie, he didn't just blow stuff up.</span>
 
I feel its relevant to mention that in the comics Batman does suspect that the Joker's "insanity" is really his greatest trick of all in that, he creates this stigma/reputation that makes it easier for him to get free and keep creating more mayhem. That'd apply to the movie, because you'd feel like there was no point to what he did at one point and then you'd be struck by how calculated his every move was at another (the whole police custody thing, telling Batman Harvey's location was Rachel's).

I think that's what's so great about his character. You can try to analyze and dissect it forever, but at the end of the day, everything about him is utterly ambiguous. Is he crazy or pulling off a convincing act? How did he become who he is? What are his motives? The answers to all those questions change constantly and you're just stuck appreciating him in the moment. Before the movie was released, Christopher Nolan compared the Joker to the shark in Jaws. Its a good way of looking at him IMO.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I feel its relevant to mention that in the comics Batman does suspect that the Joker's "insanity" is really his greatest trick of all in that, he creates this stigma/reputation that makes it easier for him to get free and keep creating more mayhem. That'd apply to the movie, because you'd feel like there was no point to what he did at one point and then you'd be struck by how calculated his every move was at another (the whole police custody thing, telling Batman Harvey's location was Rachel's).

I think that's what's so great about his character. You can try to analyze and dissect it forever, but at the end of the day, everything about him is utterly ambiguous. Is he crazy or pulling off a convincing act? How did he become who he is? What are his motives? The answers to all those questions change constantly and you're just stuck appreciating him in the moment. Before the movie was released, Christopher Nolan compared the Joker to the shark in Jaws. Its a good way of looking at him IMO.</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
I think the Joker was quite logical in this movie. He created elaborate plans to try to to cause the most mayhem. When he didn't think things through it hurt the plot, imo. </span>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I feel its relevant to mention that in the comics Batman does suspect that the Joker's "insanity" is really his greatest trick of all in that, he creates this stigma/reputation that makes it easier for him to get free and keep creating more mayhem. That'd apply to the movie, because you'd feel like there was no point to what he did at one point and then you'd be struck by how calculated his every move was at another (the whole police custody thing, telling Batman Harvey's location was Rachel's).

I think that's what's so great about his character. You can try to analyze and dissect it forever, but at the end of the day, everything about him is utterly ambiguous. Is he crazy or pulling off a convincing act? How did he become who he is? What are his motives? The answers to all those questions change constantly and you're just stuck appreciating him in the moment. Before the movie was released, Christopher Nolan compared the Joker to the shark in Jaws. Its a good way of looking at him IMO.</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
I think the Joker was quite logical in this movie. He created elaborate plans to try to to cause the most mayhem. When he didn't think things through it hurt the plot, imo. </span>
</div>
When didn't he think things through, though?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I feel its relevant to mention that in the comics Batman does suspect that the Joker's "insanity" is really his greatest trick of all in that, he creates this stigma/reputation that makes it easier for him to get free and keep creating more mayhem. That'd apply to the movie, because you'd feel like there was no point to what he did at one point and then you'd be struck by how calculated his every move was at another (the whole police custody thing, telling Batman Harvey's location was Rachel's).

I think that's what's so great about his character. You can try to analyze and dissect it forever, but at the end of the day, everything about him is utterly ambiguous. Is he crazy or pulling off a convincing act? How did he become who he is? What are his motives? The answers to all those questions change constantly and you're just stuck appreciating him in the moment. Before the movie was released, Christopher Nolan compared the Joker to the shark in Jaws. Its a good way of looking at him IMO.</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
I think the Joker was quite logical in this movie. He created elaborate plans to try to to cause the most mayhem. When he didn't think things through it hurt the plot, imo. </span>
</div>
When didn't he think things through, though?
</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Well I already mentioned Harvey in the Hospital, or his weird comment in the interrogation.</span>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I feel its relevant to mention that in the comics Batman does suspect that the Joker's "insanity" is really his greatest trick of all in that, he creates this stigma/reputation that makes it easier for him to get free and keep creating more mayhem. That'd apply to the movie, because you'd feel like there was no point to what he did at one point and then you'd be struck by how calculated his every move was at another (the whole police custody thing, telling Batman Harvey's location was Rachel's).

I think that's what's so great about his character. You can try to analyze and dissect it forever, but at the end of the day, everything about him is utterly ambiguous. Is he crazy or pulling off a convincing act? How did he become who he is? What are his motives? The answers to all those questions change constantly and you're just stuck appreciating him in the moment. Before the movie was released, Christopher Nolan compared the Joker to the shark in Jaws. Its a good way of looking at him IMO.</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
I think the Joker was quite logical in this movie. He created elaborate plans to try to to cause the most mayhem. When he didn't think things through it hurt the plot, imo. </span>
</div>
When didn't he think things through, though?
</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Well I already mentioned Harvey in the Hospital, or his weird comment in the interrogation.</span>
</div>
I don't think it was stupid so much as risky. He knew Harvey had the potential of becoming a monster of his own, as he was in just one big angry, irrational mess at the time. And he did what he thought he had to do. Of course it had enormous potential to backfire, but so do so many of the things he does. I'd equate it to him standing in the middle of the road as Batman was speeding straight at him.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I feel its relevant to mention that in the comics Batman does suspect that the Joker's "insanity" is really his greatest trick of all in that, he creates this stigma/reputation that makes it easier for him to get free and keep creating more mayhem. That'd apply to the movie, because you'd feel like there was no point to what he did at one point and then you'd be struck by how calculated his every move was at another (the whole police custody thing, telling Batman Harvey's location was Rachel's).

I think that's what's so great about his character. You can try to analyze and dissect it forever, but at the end of the day, everything about him is utterly ambiguous. Is he crazy or pulling off a convincing act? How did he become who he is? What are his motives? The answers to all those questions change constantly and you're just stuck appreciating him in the moment. Before the movie was released, Christopher Nolan compared the Joker to the shark in Jaws. Its a good way of looking at him IMO.</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
I think the Joker was quite logical in this movie. He created elaborate plans to try to to cause the most mayhem. When he didn't think things through it hurt the plot, imo. </span>
</div>
When didn't he think things through, though?
</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Well I already mentioned Harvey in the Hospital, or his weird comment in the interrogation.</span>
</div>
I don't think it was stupid so much as risky. He knew Harvey had the potential of becoming a monster of his own, as he was in just one big angry, irrational mess at the time. And he did what he thought he had to do. I'd equate it to him standing in the middle of the road as Batman was speeding straight at him.
</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I don't really think anyone could know there was even potential for Harvey to turn into a monster. Maybe get back at the Joke and his crew, that's all. Not become "Two-face", some low class thug. </span>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I feel its relevant to mention that in the comics Batman does suspect that the Joker's "insanity" is really his greatest trick of all in that, he creates this stigma/reputation that makes it easier for him to get free and keep creating more mayhem. That'd apply to the movie, because you'd feel like there was no point to what he did at one point and then you'd be struck by how calculated his every move was at another (the whole police custody thing, telling Batman Harvey's location was Rachel's).

I think that's what's so great about his character. You can try to analyze and dissect it forever, but at the end of the day, everything about him is utterly ambiguous. Is he crazy or pulling off a convincing act? How did he become who he is? What are his motives? The answers to all those questions change constantly and you're just stuck appreciating him in the moment. Before the movie was released, Christopher Nolan compared the Joker to the shark in Jaws. Its a good way of looking at him IMO.</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
I think the Joker was quite logical in this movie. He created elaborate plans to try to to cause the most mayhem. When he didn't think things through it hurt the plot, imo. </span>
</div>
When didn't he think things through, though?
</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Well I already mentioned Harvey in the Hospital, or his weird comment in the interrogation.</span>
</div>
I don't think it was stupid so much as risky. He knew Harvey had the potential of becoming a monster of his own, as he was in just one big angry, irrational mess at the time. And he did what he thought he had to do. I'd equate it to him standing in the middle of the road as Batman was speeding straight at him.
</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I don't really think anyone could know there was even potential for Harvey to turn into a monster. Maybe get back at the Joke and his crew, that's all. Not become "Two-face", some low class thug. </span>
</div>
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I disagree. I think his prior actions were specifically designed to get Harvey into that irrational/angry state, so that he could turn him into the opposite of what Batman/Gordon had intended. Like I mentioned earlier, he told Batman the wrong locations while in custody because he suspected that his feelings for Rachel would lead him to choose her. He ended up reaching the location in time to save her, but it was Harvey's instead of Rachel's, and Dent had to suffer through that tragedy. Dent was a bubbling mass of hate and despair in that hospital room and it was the Joker's visit that deflected that anger to the mob, the corrupt police, Batman/Gordon, and eventually society as a whole.

There was certainly an element of risk in the Joker's visit and Dent just as easily could've shot him there. But that element of risk was in every one of the Joker's actions. Its what made everyone consider him so crazy/scary in the first place.</span>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I feel its relevant to mention that in the comics Batman does suspect that the Joker's "insanity" is really his greatest trick of all in that, he creates this stigma/reputation that makes it easier for him to get free and keep creating more mayhem. That'd apply to the movie, because you'd feel like there was no point to what he did at one point and then you'd be struck by how calculated his every move was at another (the whole police custody thing, telling Batman Harvey's location was Rachel's).

I think that's what's so great about his character. You can try to analyze and dissect it forever, but at the end of the day, everything about him is utterly ambiguous. Is he crazy or pulling off a convincing act? How did he become who he is? What are his motives? The answers to all those questions change constantly and you're just stuck appreciating him in the moment. Before the movie was released, Christopher Nolan compared the Joker to the shark in Jaws. Its a good way of looking at him IMO.</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
I think the Joker was quite logical in this movie. He created elaborate plans to try to to cause the most mayhem. When he didn't think things through it hurt the plot, imo. </span>
</div>
When didn't he think things through, though?
</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Well I already mentioned Harvey in the Hospital, or his weird comment in the interrogation.</span>
</div>
I don't think it was stupid so much as risky. He knew Harvey had the potential of becoming a monster of his own, as he was in just one big angry, irrational mess at the time. And he did what he thought he had to do. I'd equate it to him standing in the middle of the road as Batman was speeding straight at him.
</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I don't really think anyone could know there was even potential for Harvey to turn into a monster. Maybe get back at the Joke and his crew, that's all. Not become "Two-face", some low class thug. </span>
</div>
I disagree. I think his prior actions were specifically designed to get Harvey into that irrational/angry state, so that he could turn him into the opposite of what Batman/Gordon had intended. Like I mentioned earlier, he told Batman the wrong locations while in custody because he suspected that his feelings for Rachel would lead him to choose her. He ended up reaching the location in time to save her, but it was Harvey's instead of Rachel's, and Dent had to suffer through that tragedy. Dent was a bubbling mass of hate and despair in that hospital room and it was the Joker's visit that deflected that anger to the mob, the corrupt police, Batman/Gordon, and eventually society as a whole.

There was certainly an element of risk in the Joker's visit and Dent just as easily could've shot him there. But that element of risk was in every one of the Joker's actions. Its what made everyone consider him so crazy/scary in the first place.

btw, how do you black it all out?
</div>

Lol Chut. :] Just type [.spoiler][./spoiler] without the periods.

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Normally I would agree with you that it is okay for the Joker to be irrational or what not. But in this particular movie, his illogical scenes made the flick stagnant. That little soliloquy to Two-Face was not believable at all to me, and the film's explanation on why Rachel wasn't also saved, seemed amorphous. </span>
 
Huevon-<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Yeah I think we both agree the downfall of Harvey Dent could have been done better. I totally agree that if they made the Joker slowly pick away at Dent's fractured psyche that it would have been more believable. It does require a little bit of a leap of faith that the Joker can come have a 5 minute talk with him and it convinces Dent to go after the "schemers". Dent was already pissed when Batman came for him and not Rachel and we can assume that Rachel's death changed him as he valued her more than anything in the world. But after the build up of Dent being such a good guy its hard to believe that he could change so quickly even despite the tragedies. I've read that the transformation from Dent to Two-Face was supposed to happen in the 3rd movie but for whatever reason Nolan wanted it in this one so it did feel pretty crammed in there. I think it would have played out better if they introduced it at the very end of the movie kind of like how they showed the Joker would be next at the end of Batman Begins. It could have been better if they really fleshed out the Joker aspect and effectively finished that storyline and then at the end just hint at how Dent has changed. Then in the next movie get into Dent's killing spree. </span>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> I think he just contradicted himself. If he really wants to cause the most damage, then he can't just offer himself on a platter for Dent without knowing the future beforehand. In fact I would say he made various elaborate plans during the movie, he didn't just blow stuff up.</span></div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I think its obvious he did make some brilliant plans but the Joker is right that he doesn't have an ultimate plan. Like he said hes "like a dog chasing cars, he doesn't know what he'd do if he caught one". I would say thats accurate. We don't know what the Joker is after, he doesn't want money or world power or anything like that. He makes plans for individual acts of terrorism and chaos but has no greater goal that he is working toward. Again, he can't be reasoned with, he just wants to watch the world burn.

I agree with Chutney/Nolan here. The Joker is just insane. He is tremendously calculated and yet at the same time he has no real objective. Like he said he just "does" things. Hes a guy you can analyze endlessly and yet there's almost nothing to analyze because he is such a maverick- you don't know where he came from, you don't really know what he wants, he doesn't care for his own life and certainly not for the lives of others. He is like Jaws in that he leaves everyone in terror and no one knows how to deal with him. You can't reason with a shark, he is completely untrackable so you can't find him unless hes attacking, and his attacks (while highly calculated) are random and largely unpredictable. He appears briefly to cause havoc but after that hes gone and no one can find him. This is a large part of why his character is so intriguing. Hes unique in that he has no motive, he doesn't want money, he doesn't want to take over Gotham, he doesn't care if hes killed, theres only one way to stop him and its breaking the single rule that Batman has.</span>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Lol Chut. :] Just type [.spoiler][./spoiler] without the periods.

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Normally I would agree with you that it is okay for the Joker to be irrational or what not. But in this particular movie, his illogical scenes made the flick stagnant. That little soliloquy to Two-Face was not believable at all to me, and the film's explanation on why Rachel wasn't also saved, seemed amorphous. </span></div>
Thanks man.

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I can respect your opinion, I just don't think they were irrational. I think they were calculated risky actions that had an end goal in mind (to completely overturn the character of Harvey Dent). I loved that speech, as well as the one when he was hanging off the rope. You just wrestle with it so much the longer you think about it, because its so hard to pin down the Joker into one characterization. I think his entire plan was detailed and set out. The randomness/chaos arises when you try to consider his motives (why exactly did he want to do it?). And you also have to believe that he said what he thought would set off Harvey (the whole randomness speech led to a Two Face character obsessed with chance and duality).

I do agree with an earlier point you made that Two Face, as a character separate from Harvey Dent, was not given enough time. I loved the way they portrayed the change from Dent to Two Face, but his revenge spree did feel rushed. And that's exactly why I think a third movie would have to center around Two Face.</span>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Run BJM @ Jul 31 2008, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I agree with Chutney/Nolan here. The Joker is just insane. He is tremendously calculated and yet at the same time he has no real objective. Like he said he just "does" things. Hes a guy you can analyze endlessly and yet there's almost nothing to analyze because he is such a maverick- you don't know where he came from, you don't really know what he wants, he doesn't care for his own life and certainly not for the lives of others. He is like Jaws in that he leaves everyone in terror and no one knows how to deal with him. You can't reason with a shark, he is completely untrackable so you can't find him unless hes attacking, and his attacks (while highly calculated) are random and largely unpredictable. He appears briefly to cause havoc but after that hes gone and no one can find him. This is a large part of why his character is so intriguing. Hes unique in that he has no motive, he doesn't want money, he doesn't want to take over Gotham, he doesn't care if hes killed, theres only one way to stop him and its breaking the single rule that Batman has.</span></div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Oh yes, I understand why the Joker wants to mess up Harvey's mind and try to turn the "white knight" into a maniac. My issue was the manner in which the film tried to accomplish this. We mostly agree on everything in this movie.</span>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 03:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Lol Chut. :] Just type [.spoiler][./spoiler] without the periods.

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Normally I would agree with you that it is okay for the Joker to be irrational or what not. But in this particular movie, his illogical scenes made the flick stagnant. That little soliloquy to Two-Face was not believable at all to me, and the film's explanation on why Rachel wasn't also saved, seemed amorphous. </span></div>
Thanks man.

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I can respect your opinion, I just don't think they were irrational. I think they were calculated risky actions that had an end goal in mind (to completely overturn the character of Harvey Dent). I loved that speech, as well as the one when he was hanging off the rope. You just wrestle with it so much the longer you think about it, because its so hard to pin down the Joker into one characterization. I think his entire plan was detailed and set out. The randomness/chaos arises when you try to consider his motives (why exactly did he want to do it?). And you also have to believe that he said what he thought would set off Harvey (the whole randomness speech led to a Two Face character obsessed with chance and duality).

I do agree with an earlier point you made that Two Face, as a character separate from Harvey Dent, was not given enough time. I loved the way they portrayed the change from Dent to Two Face, but his revenge spree did feel rushed. And that's exactly why I think a third movie would have to center around Two Face.</span>
</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Actually we concur on more things than you think. Like I told Run, going after Harvey is a crazy but understandable idea. It is the directing, writing, and timeline of the film that bothers me.</span>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 02:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
The Dogs have a good sense of smell but they're not formidable opponents, they're more like a nuisance. I don't think they belonged at the end of an epic movie like this one.

</span></div>
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
The dogs are not the "opponent". The Joker is the "opponent". The dogs are mere tools, that aid the Joker, buying time so that he can react to Batman if he shows up. The end of the movie turned out just at you would have expected, with Batman and the Joker facing off.
What did you expect? more bombs? The guy blew up half of Gotham and caused multiple traffic catastrophes. Sheesh!</span>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Return of the Raider @ Jul 31 2008, 04:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 02:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
The Dogs have a good sense of smell but they're not formidable opponents, they're more like a nuisance. I don't think they belonged at the end of an epic movie like this one.

</span></div>
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
The dogs are not the "opponent". The Joker is the "opponent". The dogs are mere tools, that aid the Joker, buying time so that he can react to Batman if he shows up. The end of the movie turned out just at you would have expected, with Batman and the Joker facing off.
What did you expect? more bombs? The guy blew up half of Gotham and caused multiple traffic catastrophes. Sheesh!</span>
</div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
The end of the movie did not turn out as I expected. The last fight was not a great action scene nor was it that well written. For a 150+ million movie in its first weekend, I expected more.

Further, the dogs were indeed "opponents". You can refer to them as tools if you want, that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I thought the fight against the Joker at the end was a bit short as well, or just not as interesting as I would have hoped. What was I expecting? Well something more unique I suppose, you know how the Joker rolls.
</span>
 
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Dogs are most certainly formidable. Didn't you guys watch Stan Lee's "Who Wants To Be A Superhero - Season One?" Those dogs were hitting the contestants so hard that they were knocking them to the ground. Even though they had padding on, the pressure from the dogs biting was causing some real pain for the contestants. We know, from his discussion with Fox, that Batman gave up some protection for mobility with this suit. Still, Joker is the real foe. The dogs are just tool or weapon. A very effective weapon. (Someone made some really good points about the dog's blind loyalty and that their senses would give them an advantage in the dark.) Still, the biggest danger was what the Joker would do to Batman or someone else while Batman was dealing with the dogs. The Joker fights dirty. He doesn't mind kicking the Batman with a knife in his boot while Batman is engaged with one of his henchmen.</span>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DolfanDale @ Jul 31 2008, 05:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Dogs are most certainly formidable. Didn't you guys watch Stan Lee's "Who Wants To Be A Superhero - Season One?" Those dogs were hitting the contestants so hard that they were knocking them to the ground. Even though they had padding on, the pressure from the dogs biting was causing some real pain for the contestants. We know, from his discussion with Fox, that Batman gave up some protection for mobility with this suit. Still, Joker is the real foe. The dogs are just tool or weapon. A very effective weapon. (Someone made some really good points about the dog's blind loyalty and that their senses would give them an advantage in the dark.) Still, the biggest danger was what the Joker would do to Batman or someone else while Batman was dealing with the dogs. The Joker fights dirty. He doesn't mind kicking the Batman with a knife in his boot while Batman is engaged with one of his henchmen.</span></div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Formidable against Batman though? I remember that he gave up some protection, but he should still be able to dispose of them rather quickly, they're just a good distraction. I just would have tried to think of some other elaborate contraption or situation, to distract the Batman.</span>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller @ Jul 31 2008, 07:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DolfanDale @ Jul 31 2008, 05:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Dogs are most certainly formidable. Didn't you guys watch Stan Lee's "Who Wants To Be A Superhero - Season One?" Those dogs were hitting the contestants so hard that they were knocking them to the ground. Even though they had padding on, the pressure from the dogs biting was causing some real pain for the contestants. We know, from his discussion with Fox, that Batman gave up some protection for mobility with this suit. Still, Joker is the real foe. The dogs are just tool or weapon. A very effective weapon. (Someone made some really good points about the dog's blind loyalty and that their senses would give them an advantage in the dark.) Still, the biggest danger was what the Joker would do to Batman or someone else while Batman was dealing with the dogs. The Joker fights dirty. He doesn't mind kicking the Batman with a knife in his boot while Batman is engaged with one of his henchmen.</span></div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Formidable against Batman though? I remember that he gave up some protection, but he should still be able to dispose of them rather quickly, they're just a good distraction. I just would have tried to think of some other elaborate contraption or situation, to distract the Batman.</span>
</div>
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
He was just using them to buy a few seconds, he didn't expect them to defeat him. This gives him all the time he needs to do something like flee, pull out a gun, knife, detonator, and eat the last bite of his jelly donut before having to face Batguy. Batman can sneak up on people. With the dogs there, it's harder because of their keen senses. That's all I'm trying to say.
</span>
 
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>That last scene wasn't supposed to be a real fight. The Joker was just buying time and waiting for one of the ships to press the switch. It was another one of his calculated risks, except it was the only time in the movie that his plan completely backfired on him (the Gothamites weren't willing to go all the way like he wanted to prove).</span>
 
Just saw it now at the IMAX and it was amazing. I pretty much hate all superhero movies, but this was a great movie. Ledger was brilliant, so was Aaron Eckhart. Bale was mediocre.
 
That movie just blew my mind away. As in, best superhero movie ever. It was great. I loved it.

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I loved how it didn't really end with a "happy ending," too. That was great.

And I love how they keep everything open - like, Scarecrow is out there, Harvey hasn't been pronounced dead, Joker's just being locked up.

And I like how they killed off the girl (as great an actress she was) - I didn't really expect that all too much, and it threw me off a bit.

And the beginning - wow, that was just great. Couldn't start a movie off any better.

There's just way too much good stuff to say about the movie - so many twists and turns, such great acting and story. Ledger was great, it actually got to the point where you thought he actually was insane in really life. And the way Eckhart went from good guy to bad guy, a complete transformation, as if he was playing two different roles in the same movie - that was great, he played that to a T.

Bale wasn't spectacular in this movie, he didn't really stand out...it seemed as if it was mainly the villains that stood out in this movie.

Shit, I could go on and on about this movie, it was so great... </span>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Jul 31 2008, 09:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>That last scene wasn't supposed to be a real fight. The Joker was just buying time and waiting for one of the ships to press the switch. It was another one of his calculated risks, except it was the only time in the movie that his plan completely backfired on him (the Gothamites weren't willing to go all the way like he wanted to prove).</span></div>

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> Well Chutney, they could have still had a better fight though instead of revolving the last moments of the Joker on the fairy-tale boat situation. To me a pseudo-fight like that dilutes the franchise then. They wanted to save some stuff for the third movie, but they messed up this second one in the process.

And I'm not sure Bale really had much to go on in this movie, dialogue-wise. I wouldn't blame him for a sub-par performance (I don't believe that, just saying).
</span>
 
Bale's Batman, even in Begins, was never better than his Bruce Wayne, imo. I thought his voice was worse in this one than it was in Begins. However, I still think he did a brilliant job. Ledger and Eckhart just outshined him the whole film.

I don't know if it was answered because I was way to lazy to highlight all the black lines (are they still necessary the movie has been out for two full weeks now), but the dogs played a big role in the film, Huevon. Joker stated to the Eastern European mob member, in the scene where he burned the money, that he was going to cut him up and then feed him to his dogs, to see how loyal a hungry dog really is. The final scene of the film, you see the Joker. I think the dogs could be symbolic of Dent's downfall, if you want to stretch it. Dent was loyal to Gotham City (like the dogs to their master); but the Joker caused chaos (burning Dent/killing the master), and now the dogs are on Joker's side (like Dent was as Two-Face).

Oh wow...maybe I looked way too much into the symbolism of the dogs. I'm sobering up, so I think way too much in this state of mind. Haha ignore this post.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Black Mamba @ Aug 1 2008, 01:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Bale's Batman, even in Begins, was never better than his Bruce Wayne, imo. I thought his voice was worse in this one than it was in Begins. However, I still think he did a brilliant job. Ledger and Eckhart just outshined him the whole film.

I don't know if it was answered because I was way to lazy to highlight all the black lines (are they still necessary the movie has been out for two full weeks now), but the dogs played a big role in the film, Huevon. Joker stated to the Eastern European mob member, in the scene where he burned the money, that he was going to cut him up and then feed him to his dogs, to see how loyal a hungry dog really is. The final scene of the film, you see the Joker. I think the dogs could be symbolic of Dent's downfall, if you want to stretch it. Dent was loyal to Gotham City (like the dogs to their master); but the Joker caused chaos (burning Dent/killing the master), and now the dogs are on Joker's side (like Dent was as Two-Face).

Oh wow...maybe I looked way too much into the symbolism of the dogs. I'm sobering up, so I think way too much in this state of mind. Haha ignore this post.</div>

I just want to clarify that I really did like this movie though, Mamba. I just wanted to discuss some issues.
 
I think there definitely was supposed to be symbolism with the dogs but also agree with Huevon that the end confrontation with Batman-Joker should have been better. I guess they were kind of limited because they needed to have the boat situation play out, neither one uses guns and hand to hand Batman would whoop Joker's ass easily.

Also agree with Mamba about Bale's performance. His role doesn't really allow for him to awe you with his acting. He plays the rich douche bag role to perfection and hes supposed to be dignified, quiet, tough, etc. as Batman. Bale played that role as well as you could ask for, fact is its just not a role where he can impress you because it isn't that complex.
 
Am I the only one who wanted to see a Joker squirt from the flower in his jacket?

Classy.
 
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