The duplication of Dame and CJ

[Natebishop3]

New rumors out of Philly and Boston that they are inquiring about CJ.

Hmmm.... Boston's roster really isn't that interesting. If they offered both of their lottery picks, I would seriously consider it.

If we're talking Philly, it would require Okafor or their lottery pick. Honestly, I'm not really thrilled about the idea of trading CJ for a pick. I want an established player, but Okafor is intriguing. They have too many young bigs with Okafor, Noel, and Embiid (most likely returning at some point.)

 

[Blazer4ever]

I'm impressed with how CJ has developed this season and at times it has given the Blazers a potent back court. He has really blossomed but does seem much better when he plays with the ball and not off the ball. He has struggled since Dame came back going 39-117 (.333) from the floor and 11-39 (.282) from 3-point range....both well below his season averages. CJ is just much more comfortable when he has the ball in his hands, can dribble, create, dance, juke, set up players more often and get his own rhythm. It was that way in the playoffs last year in his huge came against Memphis as Dame was so off, CJ basically took over playing PG and Dame played off the ball when they were in together. It was also the case while Dame was out as CJ shot 64-129 (.496) from the field and 16-40 (.400) from '3'. In the 12 games they played together before Dame got hurt, CJ was 88-224 (.392) from the field so in the last 18 games together, CJ is 127-341 (.372). That is a fairly significant sample size.

Now we would all expect CJ scoring numbers to go down with Damian's return as he just wouldn't get as many shots but what is concerning is how far his efficiency has fallen. He should be getting BETTER looks as teams can't just focus on him because they have to pay attention to (until last night) an on fire Damian Lillard.

He just doesn't seem to have the same swagger, confidence or rhythm and that's been a concern since the beginning of the season for me. Although CJ is the much better player, Allan Crabbe seems to be a better fit at SG with either Dame or CJ.

They are both ball dominant guards who take a higher volume of shots, can create for teammates and have the ability to really score....but I'm still not convinced that works long term. Crabbe provides much more of what Wes did. He is a 3-and-D guy who is better off the catch (although Crabbe has shown signs of a mid-range game lately) and doesn't need the ball to be effective. The Blazers still need someone who can create and take some of the pressure of Damian so other teams don't just trap him all the time but CJ seems to need the ball more often than just as a release valve.

Is this a case where they are just too similar to be an effective combination long term?

The chemistry between Dame and CJ isn't at it's highest. Dame dominates the ball too much and CJ doesn't pass and the offense isn't flowing ideally. I think there are some ego struggles and I think CJ being so effective with Dame out was an example of the best we can expect from him alongside Dame and we need to get to that place to maximize the team's potential

 

[PtldPlatypus]

If Bos. is involved... I'm pretty sure Turner & Hunter (& possibly Zeller) would b in play; thing is though, for us, I'd only b interested in Marcus Smart/Jae Crowder (doubt that Bos. would deal either of those guys but... IF they were... CJ... it was nice knowin' ya & good luck man!)

Smart has not lived up to his name, and many in the Celtic organization are displeased with his inability to control his emotions on the court. If he were dealt here, he would clearly be a backup, clearing room for Crabbe to start. Smart however is a bigger PG, and a plus defender (or so his reputation was; I don't know if that's held true in the pros). I'd need a first round pick along with Smart to make that deal though. Make it lowest lottery pick available (theirs, or Brooklyn's if Boston makes the playoffs).

Edit: just looked more closely at Smart's stats, especially his shooting percentages. Definitely need Brooklyn's pick to trade CJ for him.

 

[Blazinaway]

Hmmm.... Boston's roster really isn't that interesting. If they offered both of their lottery picks, I would seriously consider it.

If we're talking Philly, it would require Okafor or their lottery pick. Honestly, I'm not really thrilled about the idea of trading CJ for a pick. I want an established player, but Okafor is intriguing. They have too many young bigs with Okafor, Noel, and Embiid (most likely returning at some point.)

IMO if it was Philly it would likely be Noel and I personally feel a straight up CJ for Noel swap is fair for both teams. I think Philly keeps Okafor but I'd easily take him if he was offered.

 

[KeepOnRollin]

The chemistry between Dame and CJ isn't at it's highest. Dame dominates the ball too much and CJ doesn't pass and the offense isn't flowing ideally. I think there are some ego struggles and I think CJ being so effective with Dame out was an example of the best we can expect from him alongside Dame and we need to get to that place to maximize the team's potential

I am sorry but this thinking is bullshit. Their chemistry off the court and on is the best we have seen in years on our team. This is all about you butthurt over Frazier not getting more minutes. Without CJ, Frazier is still going to be mediocre, man (unintentional MM, sorry). Sorry to say. He is a fringe-NBA player for a reason. Get off the train and support the team as whole not just who you think is better than they really are.

 

[KeepOnRollin]

Dame - 6' 1 3/4" w/shoes......6' 2 3/4" with shoes @ Chicago Pre-Draft Dame listed at 6'3"....close.
CJ ----- 6' 2 1/4" w/shoes......6' 3 1/4" with shoes @ Chicago Pre-Draft. CJ listed at 6'4".........generous.

Some player change shoes when they get into the NBA and it will add 1/2" to their game height. Some players measure 1" taller in shoes while others measure 1 1/2" taller in shoes. Different brands, styles etc. CJ was always taller but is still short for a SG and historically, 6'4" and under SG haven't excelled in this league for long. Certainly there are exceptions but they were often teamed with a backcourt mate that wasn't ball dominant if that was the case.

All I can tell you is that by just looking at them on the court and seeing them in photos they are at least an inch and a half difference in height now. I don't give two shits what they are listed at officially as those are almost always wrong one way or another in the NBA. This is a year of finding out what will or won't work. It has already worked better than most imagined. Olshey absolutely has earned my trust on this. I believe he makes the right decision in the long run (whatever that ends up being).

 

[KeepOnRollin]

Hmmm.... Boston's roster really isn't that interesting. If they offered both of their lottery picks, I would seriously consider it.

If we're talking Philly, it would require Okafor or their lottery pick. Honestly, I'm not really thrilled about the idea of trading CJ for a pick. I want an established player, but Okafor is intriguing. They have too many young bigs with Okafor, Noel, and Embiid (most likely returning at some point.)

Problem with Okafor is he is a horrible defender. Hard to have a big that gives up as much or more than he scores on a per minute basis.

 

[Blazer4ever]

I am sorry but this thinking is bullshit. Their chemistry off the court and on is the best we have seen in years on our team. This is all about you butthurt over Frazier not getting more minutes. Without CJ, Frazier is still going to be mediocre, man (unintentional MM, sorry). Sorry to say. He is a fringe-NBA player for a reason. Get off the train and support the team as whole not just who you think is better than they really are.

Yes, I think Frazier should play. I also think their chemistry on the court isn't ideal. Dame doesn't let CJ run the offense even though we won some games like that and CJ doesn't create for others and also the other players aren't ready for CJ to create for them, Dame is becoming the only one to run the offense and even though he's the point guard (and as I said, I wouldn't mind once, for 5 minutes, see him as a 2 next to Frazier), part of our strength is having two combo-guards and not just a PG and a short SG.

 

[KeepOnRollin]

Yes, I think Frazier should play. I also think their chemistry on the court isn't ideal. Dame doesn't let CJ run the offense even though we won some games like that and CJ doesn't create for others and also the other players aren't ready for CJ to create for them, Dame is becoming the only one to run the offense and even though he's the point guard (and as I said, I wouldn't mind once, for 5 minutes, see him as a 2 next to Frazier), part of our strength is having two combo-guards and not just a PG and a short SG.

CJ has been distributing worlds better than earlier in the year. Even with Dame in the lineup with him he has assist games of 10, 8 and 7. This is all in your head imo.

 

[TBpup]

http://www.youthhealthmag.com/artic...celtics-target-cj-mccollum-better-scoring.htm Shorter mention than the 2nd article.

http://hoopshabit.com/2016/01/15/boston-celtics-trade-blazers-c-j-mccollum/ The 2nd half of the article is all about McCollum.

Both of these articles are more 'The Celtics should do this' versus rumors but I've also heard that the Celtics are looking to improve and have 4 1st Round Draft picks to play with. Interesting that the two teams that have the most chatter involving CJ have a combined 7 1st round picks this coming Draft.

 

[RR7]

Boston seems like an odd spot, already having Thomas, smart, Bradley, and then the two young guys, Hunter and young.

 

[TBpup]

Boston seems like an odd spot, already having Thomas, smart, Bradley, and then the two young guys, Hunter and young.

Lots of young players but only Thomas is really producing. Smart has been a big disappointment, Bradley is doing okay but not as well as CJ and Hunter/Young have been non-existent. Any CJ trade I'm guessing would be around Draft picks and a young player on a rookie contract who isn't untouchable.

 

[tester551]

http://www.youthhealthmag.com/artic...celtics-target-cj-mccollum-better-scoring.htm Shorter mention than the 2nd article.

http://hoopshabit.com/2016/01/15/boston-celtics-trade-blazers-c-j-mccollum/ The 2nd half of the article is all about McCollum.

Both of these articles are more 'The Celtics should do this' versus rumors but I've also heard that the Celtics are looking to improve and have 4 1st Round Draft picks to play with. Interesting that the two teams that have the most chatter involving CJ have a combined 7 1st round picks this coming Draft.

Both these opinion pieces are as a result of John Craptonzo's opinion piece that we ought to trade him. I don't see anything of substance here.

 

[RR7]

Both these opinion pieces are as a result of John Craptonzo's opinion piece that we ought to trade him. I don't see anything of substance here.

The one suggestion, Whiteside, an UFA, for CJ and a 2nd? Sorry, as a free agent, Whiteside doesn't have that value at all.

 

[illmatic99]

I don't know why we are hell bent on trading CJ. Give this experiment at least a season or two before claiming that it will fail.

 

[TBpup]

Both these opinion pieces are as a result of John Craptonzo's opinion piece that we ought to trade him. I don't see anything of substance here.

I don't click on those links or mention that name...but yes, they refer to that/him. As stated, they are 'Boston should do this' articles versus actual rumors.

 

[blue9]

Interesting that the two teams that have the most chatter involving CJ have a combined 7 1st round picks this coming Draft.

So what you're saying is that we're trading CJ for seven 1st round draft picks?

 

[TBpup]

I don't know why we are hell bent on trading CJ. Give this experiment at least a season or two before claiming that it will fail.

It doesn't seem like people are hell bent. Rather just discussing ideas of what might make the Blazers a better team in the long run. Possibilities....

Also, when other cities sportswriters start mentioning your player as an option for their team, it only seems reasonable to at least discuss.

 

[Tunchi]

You guys remember Eric Maynor? I remember that was an experiment that was deemed successful when paired with Dame bc Dame could play off the ball with a PG like that and we all called it a success. Now we have a MUCH BETTER player than Maynor with cj and nobody is sweating that anymore..

 

[Natebishop3]

You guys remember Eric Maynor? I remember that was an experiment that was deemed successful when paired with Dame bc Dame could play off the ball with a PG like that and we all called it a success. Now we have a MUCH BETTER player than Maynor with cj and nobody is sweating that anymore..

Maynor was a distributing point guard and he was a backup. We played him with Dame for, what, maybe 10 minutes a game? It gave us a chance to let Dame play off the ball for a little bit, and rest Wes during that period. I think the situation with CJ is a little different.

 

[RR7]

It doesn't seem like people are hell bent. Rather just discussing ideas of what might make the Blazers a better team in the long run. Possibilities....

Also, when other cities sportswriters start mentioning your player as an option for their team, it only seems reasonable to at least discuss.

I agree with you it never hurts to explore possibilities. Especially on a message board. What else are we going to do.

As for other writers discussing, I think as is usually the case with these things, local writer writes a story, national places give it a small bump, places like true hoop used to be, that cull stories from all over. Often they bastardize the original content. Then other local writers see those blurbs and write pieces like this one. I don't for a second believe it's just other local guys taking a notice of cj.

 

[TBpup]

Maynor was a distributing point guard and he was a backup. We played him with Dame for, what, maybe 10 minutes a game? It gave us a chance to let Dame play off the ball for a little bit, and rest Wes during that period. I think the situation with CJ is a little different.

And how can we forget how EPICALLY poor on defense Dame/Maynor were....scratch out eyeballs bad.

 

[oldfisherman]

Trading CJ would need to start with making a significant improvement at another position, C, PF or SF. But, with the remaining roster, trading CJ would mean we are downgrading at two positions, SG & BUPG.

Before a trade like this happens, Olshey would need to have a plan in place to improve at SG & BUPG. Otherwise this trade means we have gone from being one of the best backcourts to one of the worst. How does Oslhey find a starting caliber SG and a quality BUPG?

Free agents. The chances of signing a starting caliber FA SG next summer that would compliment Dame are just about zero. Signing a FA BUPG that is better than Frazier might be doable.

Draft pick. We might not have a pick if the team keeps winning. If we do have a pick, it will not land us a starting caliber SG that is ready to play, but a BUPG is a possiblility.

Trade. Who knows, hard to project what trades might happen. I am sure Olshey is hoping to make a consolidation trade at some point. Which begs the question, does he have enough assets to make a consolidation trade now, if not, when will he have enough assets?

 

[TBpup]

Trading CJ would need to start with making a significant improvement at another position, C, PF or SF. But, with the remaining roster, trading CJ would mean we are downgrading at two positions, SG & BUPG.

Agreed. But of course he would have that in place already. The most obvious answer at SG would be to plug in Allan Crabbe into what would be very similar to the Wesley Matthew role. Hopefully what came out of it would be more balance in the front court. We would be losing a very good player but might end up being a better team....al'a when Monta Ellis left Golden State.

 

[oldfisherman]

Agreed. But of course he would have that in place already. The most obvious answer at SG would be to plug in Allan Crabbe into what would be very similar to the Wesley Matthew role. Hopefully what came out of it would be more balance in the front court. We would be losing a very good player but might end up being a better team....al'a when Monta Ellis left Golden State.

I am not convinced you would like the results of starting Crabbe, but will admit there is a chance he turns into the next Kris Middleton. The risk free test would be to start Crabbe and make CJ the 6th man.

I am not against trading CJ, just that there would need to be more to it than a CJ for Granger type trade. CJ may have more trade value right now than Dame due to their contracts.

CJs trade value reminds me of when every GM in the league wanted the young Batum. If my old memory is correct (it may not be). Didn’t the Blazers have a good shot of winning the CP3 auction, but missed out because we would not include Batum in the trade?

I do not believe any player should be untouchable. If a GM is crazy enough to overpay for CJ, trade him.

 

[illmatic99]

It doesn't seem like people are hell bent. Rather just discussing ideas of what might make the Blazers a better team in the long run. Possibilities....

Also, when other cities sportswriters start mentioning your player as an option for their team, it only seems reasonable to at least discuss.

The way to win in this league is to develop competitive advantages at multiple positions. Dame + CJ together might not be totally synergistic yet, but they offer competitive advantages. They offer you 48 minutes of trouble for defenses on the perimeter. How many other teams can offer that advantage?

I hate this idea of trading him just because his game replicates Dame's.

Just because you and others have not seen a team out there with this kind of duo doesn't mean they won't work in the future. We don't HAVE to follow convention and traditional lineups. If GS did that, they wouldn't have a 6'7 guy playing C, and leading their team in assists.

 

[B-Roy]

Just because you and others have not seen a team out there with this kind of duo doesn't mean they won't work in the future. We don't HAVE to follow convention and traditional lineups. If GS did that, they wouldn't have a 6'7 guy playing C, and leading their team in assists.

People don't like situations without precedence. But guess what, no one won a championship playing like the Warriors did last year and they steamrolled everyone.

If something doesn't work, it doesn't work. But there's no evidence that the Dame/CJ pairing won't work....yet.

 

[Blazer4ever]

Maynor was a distributing point guard and he was a backup. We played him with Dame for, what, maybe 10 minutes a game? It gave us a chance to let Dame play off the ball for a little bit, and rest Wes during that period. I think the situation with CJ is a little different.

But it's exactly the same situation with Tim Frazier, don't you agree? He's exactly the same kind of player Maynor is/was

 

[riverman]

But it's exactly the same situation with Tim Frazier, don't you agree? He's exactly the same kind of player Maynor is/was

I'd say Frazier is way more turnover prone than Maynor was..Maynor was a decent backup point guard..just not a great one

 

[KeepOnRollin]

But it's exactly the same situation with Tim Frazier, don't you agree? He's exactly the same kind of player Maynor is/was

Maynor was big enough to cover 2 guards on defense during the short stretch of run that he got in games with Dame in the backcourt with him. Frazier can't match up on D like Maynor could.