The Final Word On Obama's Birth Certificate (2 Viewers)

[Minstrel]

To whom exactly are you referring to when you say, "you guys"?

You know who you people are.

 

[Natebishop3]

You know who you people are.

 

[Masbee]

Literally nothing is knowable, outside of mathematics. All we have is levels of sure-ity. Based on his having produced a legally recognized form of birth certificate, the announcement in local newspaper of his birth and things like that, I am quite sure he was born in Hawaii.

If you're willing to believe it's possible that fake birth announcements were created for a Kenyan newborn, how would you know that the state of Hawaii didn't create a fake birth certificate on his behalf?

Ok, wait. Start over.

What is the proof that Obama was born in Hawaii?

1) A Certification of Live Birth issued by the State of Hawaii.

2) Two birth announcements in Honolulu newspapers.

Am I missing something?

 

[Minstrel]

Ok, wait. Start over.

What is the proof that Obama was born in Hawaii?

1) A Certification of Live Birth issued by the State of Hawaii.

2) Two birth announcements in Honolulu newspapers.

Am I missing something?

Nope. Sounds good to me. A birth certificate and reports at the time. Not proof (as again, outside mathematics, nothing is provable) but enough evidence, to me, to make it extremely implausible that he was born elsewhere.

 

[Masbee]

Nope. Sounds good to me. A birth certificate and reports at the time. Not proof (as again, outside mathematics, nothing is provable) but enough evidence, to me, to make it extremely implausible that he was born elsewhere.

No. Not the birth certificate. A "Certification of Live Birth". Which is a document constructed on demand from data stored in a digital database.

Anywho. You say that this amount of evidence is completely adequate.

As "proof" of how adequate it is, you claim that since no amount of proof will ever be enough to "prove" the issue, we should stop at what we have.

I find that argument to be silly.

You are shooting down, what I consider very reasonable requests for more evidence, by arguing that weak evidence is just as good as stronger evidence, since neither "prove" the issue. Try that argument in a court of law when the judge demands production of ALL potentially relevant records.

Note: I don't think this happened, but a plausible scenario with the evidence provided is thus:

Obama's parents were pregnant, planning to relocate to Hawaii to raise their child, the child was born prior to their departure date, in a foreign location. Shortly after birth they fly to Hawaii. Shortly after arrival, they go to the State and record the birth of a baby with the state. Baby now recorded in the state of Hawaii records. Newspapers pick up recording and post notices.

Why is Obama hiding his document? Likely not because he wasn't born in Hawaii. But, that doesn't mean he should feel free to withhold the document which could help clarify.

It is possible that on the original birth certificate Obama's name, or his parents names, or his parents birthplace, or some other fact is in conflict with his prior statements and autobiography. If so, it is in the public interest for these deceptions and lies to be exposed.

I really don't see why Obama get's a free pass from so many on his willful withholding of this document because "only nuts are asking for it", "it is a sideshow", "I don't care if he was born somewhere else", "it is not important", "what does it matter", "please go away, stop bothering him", "he has already provided the proof",

and a whole bunch of other excuses, blaming of the messenger, lies and distortions.

It is real simple - either Obama provides the long withheld document or he should continue to be pillioried for being a hypocrite who loves to tell folks what to do while himself ignoring those very same prescriptions. A classic busybody politician. "I'm passing laws, making rules, passing judgement - none of it applies to me".

 

[Denny Crane]

When I moved to Hawaii in 2000, people in lots of places on the islands still had party lines for phones. Literally like Green Acres with a phone on a phone poll within a mile of the house. I knew a few of the state senators. They had a secretary as their entire staff.

In ~1960, when Obama was born, the place had just become a state and was so backwards compared to the rest of the states. I wouldn't expect them to have good records going back then.

 

[Masbee]

When I moved to Hawaii in 2000, people in lots of places on the islands still had party lines for phones. Literally like Green Acres with a phone on a phone poll within a mile of the house. I knew a few of the state senators. They had a secretary as their entire staff.

In ~1960, when Obama was born, the place had just become a state and was so backwards compared to the rest of the states. I wouldn't expect them to have good records going back then.

I am not sure I follow.

A State of Hawaii official in a press conference announced that they inspected the actual birth certificate document. So that record exists if you believe the state official.

 

[Denny Crane]

I am not sure I follow.

A State of Hawaii official in a press conference announced that they inspected the actual birth certificate document. So that record exists if you believe the state official.

I think if it existed, it'd have been produced a long time ago.

Neil Abercrombie is a Democrat. Just elected governor of Hawaii.

http://www.examiner.com/democrat-in...ate-hawaii-gov-abercrombie-fuels-birther-fire

Governor of Hawaii Neil Abercrombie once promised to produce President Barack Obama's birth certificate and quench Birther suspicions once and for all. However, rather than providing evidence that would silence the Birther conspiracy, Abercrombie has only managed to fuel the Birther fire.

Celebrity journalist Mike Evans, apparently a friend of Hawaii governor Neil Abercrombie, shared a story with KQRS morning radio show listeners about the search for Barack Obama’s birth certificate.

Evans shares that, after a fruitless search through Hawaii hospitals, Abercrombie confided to him that (in Evans’ words) “there is no Barack Obama birth certificate in Hawaii, absolutely no proof at all that Obama was born in Hawaii.”

Newly-elected Hawaii Governor Neil Abercrombie was on a mission to end the Birther controversy once and for all. Governor Abercrombie announced he was initiating a process to make policy changes that would allow Hawaii to release additional evidence that Obama was born in Honolulu on Aug. 4, 1961.

 

[Denny Crane]

Note that I am satisfied he was born in Hawaii.

 

[Minstrel]

No. Not the birth certificate. A "Certification of Live Birth". Which is a document constructed on demand from data stored in a digital database.

Right. One which is generally considered functionally equivalent to a birth certificate if the parents' names are present, as they are on Obama's.

As "proof" of how adequate it is, you claim that since no amount of proof will ever be enough to "prove" the issue, we should stop at what we have.

No, you've constructed a strawman. I never said that the fact that nothing is knowable is "proof" that we should stop. I said that, in my opinion, adequate evidence exists and, in my opinion, people who still think he wasn't born in Hawaii are a little nutty.

I never once spoke of "proof that we have enough evidence."

You are shooting down, what I consider very reasonable requests for more evidence

No, I'm not. As I told maxiep, I don't think it would be a bad thing if Obama released it, nor do I care if he does or does not. In no way does that constitute "shooting down." I haven't rendered judgment, either, on whether the request is "reasonable" or not.

The only judgment I've made is to say that those who don't think Obama was born in Hawaii are a bit nuts. In my opinion, there is enough evidence for me to make that judgment on "birthers."

 

[MARIS61]

I read it.

Note that they're quoting that it's been the same since the 80s. Was Obama born in the 1980s? He was born in 1961.

Also note that it's what Hawaii releases when someone requests a copy of the birth certificate. Why doesn't Hawaii release the original copy? It's the way Hawaii does things, but that still doesn't answer a simple question. They have his original birth certificate. Why not head down to a copy machine and end the discussion? I have no doubt that a birth certificate in the State of New Jersey looks different now than it did when I was born there. If someone wanted to see my original birth certificate, the State of New Jersey would have a copy of one created the day I was born.

Probably not.

Last year I went to renew my driver's license the day after it expired. After taking it from me and refusing to give it back to me since it was expired, I was told that DHS now demands I show my birth certificate or a passport as proof of ID in order to get my license. I had a plastic Birth Registration Card that was issued to me about 25 years ago with my birth info on it but the last 2 letters of my name were broken off so I was told that was no good. I was then told I could get a copy online. But in order to get one online, DHS demands I show a passport or driver's license. I have no passport and my ODL was expired and confiscated by DMV. To get a passport....

To make a long story short, through a series of emails back and forth about how to solve this catch 22, I supplied them with all the info off my Birth Registration Card, the hospital I was born at (no longer a hospital), my ODL#, my SSN, my national and state Realtor ID #'s, and a copy of my background check by the State Police and FBI.

I eventually won out and they sent me a Certificate of Live Birth. It has the exact same info as my slightly damaged Birth Registration Card, plus the 2 missing letters. It has no other info on it. The only other difference is the Certificate number is nearly identical, but not exactly the same, as my Birth Registration Card.

 

[MARIS61]

Right. One which is generally considered functionally equivalent to a birth certificate if the parents' names are present, as they are on Obama's.

Oregon's Certificate of Live Birth has:

Certificate #
Name
Sex
Birth date
Birth place (county)
Mother's maiden name
Mother's birth place
Father's name
Father's birth place
Record file date (date original birth certificate was filed)
Date issued (date Certificate of Live Birth was issued)

It is printed on watermarked paper, like money, and signed by the State Registrar certifying it "is a true, full and correct copy of the original certificate on file or the vital record facts on file in the vital records unit of the Oregon Center for Health Statistics".

An original birth certificate from a hospital would be a much easier document to forge, which is probably why they are no longer relied upon.

It's odd Obama's doesn't note his parent's birthplaces, but Hawaii is a hick state of mostly very lazy, poorly educated people so it doesn't surprise me they don't know their ass from a hole on the ground.

 

[jlprk]

But in order to get one online, DHS demands I show a passport or driver's license. I have no passport and my ODL was expired and confiscated by DMV. To get a passport....

In south San Diego, in the blocks next to the border, neon lights flash "PASSPORT."

Does HCP speak Spanish? Next time, ask him to get you one. You can even change your name to Roger Maris.

 

[Masbee]

No, I'm not. As I told maxiep, I don't think it would be a bad thing if Obama released it, nor do I care if he does or does not. In no way does that constitute "shooting down." I haven't rendered judgment, either, on whether the request is "reasonable" or not.

The only judgment I've made is to say that those who don't think Obama was born in Hawaii are a bit nuts. In my opinion, there is enough evidence for me to make that judgment on "birthers."

This is where we veer off in different directions.

Again, the proof that Obama was born in Hawaii is LESS than the customary and usually amount of original and detailed documentation that the vast majority of U.S. born citizens has available to prove their birth.

YOU say, that is not only perfectly acceptable, but further go on to make the leap that those that complain about the deficient documentation are CRAZY.

I simply cannot abide that logic and that leap.

YOU may feel that it is a neutral, and that Obama is not diminished in any way whatsover, and you hold absolutely no judgement toward him on his odd and unusual stance to withhold (documents that are claimed to exist by the State), but I don't agree. Politicians that break promises and play "games" like this are a negative to me, any way you want to slice and dice it.

 

[Masbee]

Something I would like to add to this thread:

I had zero interest in this subject until about 1 month ago. Prior to that I would skip over all prior stories on the subject. The "mainstream" media reported that all the birther claims had been "debunked" and birthers were labled crazy - or worse. I ignored the entire issue as a waste of time.

For whatever reason, Trump picking at an old scab - and getting a reaction from the White House - perked up my interest a bit. Why in the world was the White House getting into it with Trump??

As part of the extensive coverage revolving around Trump the big debunker web site (the one that won a prize!) updated their story. I decided to spend a few minutes and study this issue. What I found stunned me. This supposed "debunk" web site did little more than "debunk" a lot of junk. Essentially, line up a bunch of strawmen, then knock them down one by one in boring, mind numbing detail.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/

Ladies and gentlemen, that is not "debunking". It is just a circle jerk of bullshit. Just as much bullshit as a blowhard like Trump. No ground was gained. The debunking sites DO NOT separate the chaff from wheat and focus on the wheat - the heart of the matter. They waste their time with the wild claims. What for?

Additionally, they got some of their information about how the State of Hawaii operates and what records are available, etc. wrong. Hey, they were only reporting what they were told. Which calls into question their investigative abilities, and the motives of those who hand out prizes for good work. But, ignore that for a minute.

The debunking web site produced NO NEW EVIDENCE to support the birthplace, time, listed parents, birthplace of parents, etc. of Obama. They provided NO original birth certificate. They provided NO reasonable explanation for why Obama refuses to release any further historical documents.

So, when you see the oft repeated claim that this issue has been "debunked" it is not true. Only selected birther accusations have been "debunked".

 

[BrianFromWA]

I find it a bit fun that there's a 170-ish post thread about the "Final Word" of the issue.

Denny's raking in the dough!

 

[PapaG]

I find it a bit fun that there's a 170-ish post thread about the "Final Word" of the issue.

Denny's raking in the dough!

The final words should be RELEASE IT.

It's as simple as that. The leader of the supposed free world could end this by just releasing his true BC from the hospital. The Obama Apolgists like Minstrel seem to go to great lengths to continually and define what is really as simple argument, with a simple solution.

 

[Minstrel]

The Obama Apolgists like Minstrel seem to go to great lengths to continually and define what is really as simple argument, with a simple solution.

I think you're a little confused. I don't care one way or the other whether he releases it, as I've noted a couple of times. If that makes me an apologist, I guess the vast majority of the nation are Obama Apologists.

Which doesn't bode well for you birthers.

 

[PapaG]

I think you're a little confused. I don't care one way or the other whether he releases it, as I've noted a couple of times. If that makes me an apologist, I guess the vast majority of the nation are Obama Apologists.

Which doesn't bode well for you birthers.

Hmm...

Obama Job Approval at 41%, Tying His Low

PRINCETON, NJ - The latest Gallup Daily tracking three-day average shows 41% of Americans approving of the job Barack Obama is doing as president. That ties his low as president, which he registered three times previously -- twice in August 2010 and once in October 2010.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147140/Obama-Job-Approval-Tying-Low.aspx

Could there be some correlation between Barry's continued lack of transparency and how it affects public opinion?

 

[Minstrel]

Could there be some correlation between Barry's continued lack of transparency and how it affects public opinion?

Lack of transparency about his birth certificate? I doubt it. Lack of transparency in regards to his administration? As I said in an earlier post, he definitely failed to keep that promise and I have no doubt that that is hurting him to some extent. Probably not as much as the economy, but definitely some amount.

 

[Paxil]

The final words should be RELEASE IT.

It's as simple as that. The leader of the supposed free world could end this by just releasing his true BC from the hospital. The Obama Apolgists like Minstrel seem to go to great lengths to continually and define what is really as simple argument, with a simple solution.

And exactly how would he do that since he doesn't have it? And would it suprise you that it is against the law for him to walk into the hospital and get it? That would be pretty cool if you could walk into a hospital and walk off with your original birth certificate. Oh wait... that would be a bad idea wouldn't it?

 

[Masbee]

And exactly how would he do that since he doesn't have it? And would it suprise you that it is against the law for him to walk into the hospital and get it? That would be pretty cool if you could walk into a hospital and walk off with your original birth certificate. Oh wait... that would be a bad idea wouldn't it?

Are you really dense, or are you just being a smartass? Either way, not adding much to the thread.

 

[MickZagger]

OMG! Obama is a muslim jihadist in disguise!

 

[Paxil]

OMG! Obama is a muslim jihadist in disguise!

The fact that he won't deny it makes me suspect he is.

 

[barfo]

The fact that he won't deny it makes me suspect he is.

I want him to deny that he is a block of cheddar cheese. If he isn't a block of cheddar cheese, he should offer some evidence that he's not cheddar. It's a reasonable request.

barfo

 

[agoo]

Wouldn't cheddar melt on vacation in Hawaii, or at least spoil? Isn't that proof enough.

 

[barfo]

Wouldn't cheddar melt on vacation in Hawaii, or at least spoil? Isn't that proof enough.

Is there any evidence he hasn't melted? That scar on his head might be from a prior melting.

barfo

 

[Paxil]

Whether Obama's brain is full of cheddar cheese is certainly more debatable than whether he was born in Hawaii.

 

[PapaG]

Mocking, lying, and obfuscating. That seems to be the MO of Barry Defenders in this thread.

RELEASE IT.

And Paxil, you might want to read the entire thread before adding in your ignorant opinion.

 

[MrJayremmie]

Does it seem odd that most of America doesn't give a shit about this birth certificate thing right now, and that the only people who do are Pubs?